23 March 2010: Friend reports Josh says mine shaft best for hiding body

[harleysnana]

Wow... I posted this rumor of the mine a while ago!
My source was my computer guy who said his sister use to work with Josh...
it was at a Christmas party that Josh said this to a number of co workers.

Anyway.... the local police do not want and are not encouraging people to search...
I'm starting to wonder if they have an idea where she is but they just can’t get to her.
It’s the only thing that makes sense…. IMO.

 

[PickieChickie]

Wow... I posted this rumor of the mine a while ago!
My source was my computer guy who said his sister use to work with Josh...
it was at a Christmas party that Josh said this to a number of co workers.

Anyway.... the local police do not want and are not encouraging people to search...
I'm starting to wonder if they have an idea where she is but they just can’t get to her.
It’s the only thing that makes sense…. IMO.

Thank goodness someone finally came out and said something to the media! I bet the person got ticked off after hearing Mr. Cox, Susan's father, say he doesn't think Susan is "out there".

I believe this man spoke out because he wanted all the searchers to know that they were on the right track and to not be discouraged by Mr. Cox's evaluation of the situation!

 

[dovebar]

If a killer bought plastic wrap and a cutting torch in advance, and scouted out dump sites instead of houses to sell, a question that occurs to me is why kill the victim now?

I know there was supposedly a new job the next day, but I'm not sure that would have been dreadful enough to make someone choose that date for that reason. If thye prepared, there goes the idea that there was a spontaneous argument.

Is there any reason why disposing of her in winter would be a better idea? Does this make the mine idea more likely? He knew he wouldn't have to dig a grave, and he knew the place was car-accessible even if it snowed. Perhaps he was counting on a good six months of decomposition before there were even hikers in the area examining mine entrances, and snow to cover any footprints. Perhaps there is water or other substance in the mine that will hurry the decomposition. Perhaps if this had been done in the summer, the mountains would be full of hikers and campers who might have seen someone that night.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...y-in-mine-shaft/2006/03/07/1141701510874.html

 

[dovebar]

Top story in the news in the week before Susan died was this.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=8858787

 

[PickieChickie]

If a killer bought plastic wrap and a cutting torch in advance, and scouted out dump sites instead of houses to sell, a question that occurs to me is why kill the victim now?

I know there was supposedly a new job the next day, but I'm not sure that would have been dreadful enough to make someone choose that date for that reason. If thye prepared, there goes the idea that there was a spontaneous argument.

Is there any reason why disposing of her in winter would be a better idea? Does this make the mine idea more likely? He knew he wouldn't have to dig a grave, and he knew the place was car-accessible even if it snowed. Perhaps he was counting on a good six months of decomposition before there were even hikers in the area examining mine entrances, and snow to cover any footprints. Perhaps there is water or other substance in the mine that will hurry the decomposition. Perhaps if this had been done in the summer, the mountains would be full of hikers and campers who might have seen someone that night.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...y-in-mine-shaft/2006/03/07/1141701510874.html

Josh allegedly purchased a cutting torch on Monday, December 7th, 2010, a number of hours after he left to go camping.

Josh wasn't starting a new job the next day as he'd been employed by the trucking company as a computer programmer for approximately one year.

I really don't think he planned to kill Susan that night. I do, however, think he thought about it as he realized he would never be able to become the person Susan required him to be. Knowing the deadline of their wedding anniversary was rapidly approaching, I believe he became angrier each day and finally lost his temper that fateful night and either struck, shoved or choked Susan.

He may have already had an idea of which mine shaft would be a good disposal site and was fantasizing about killing Susan.

If he had planned Susan's murder in advance, one would think he would have taken the family on a camping or hiking trip and pushed her off a cliff and claimed she slipped or some caused some other believable accident such as a drowning. At least that would have been more believable than the camping story!

 

[PickieChickie]

Wow... I posted this rumor of the mine a while ago!
My source was my computer guy who said his sister use to work with Josh...
it was at a Christmas party that Josh said this to a number of co workers.

Anyway.... the local police do not want and are not encouraging people to search...
I'm starting to wonder if they have an idea where she is but they just can’t get to her.
It’s the only thing that makes sense…. IMO.

It is an AWESOME thing if many people heard Josh make the statement that a good place to hide a body is down a mine shaft!

If Susan's body is never found, but the police have given the district attorney enough circumstantial evidence to prosecute Josh for murder, these people will make EXCELLENT witnesses!

I know if I was sitting on a jury and learned about Josh's camping trip, watched the video footage of him being interviewed by the reporters then heard witnesses tell of his statement, I'd vote GUILTY!!!!!

Josh Powell will be indicted one day. Let's hope the prosecutor doesn't wait so long that the witnesses are no longer available to testify about hearing Josh make that statement!

 

[Bartleby]

Josh allegedly purchased a cutting torch on Monday, December 7th, 2010, a number of hours after he left to go camping.

Josh wasn't starting a new job the next day as he'd been employed by the trucking company as a computer programmer for approximately one year.

I really don't think he planned to kill Susan that night. I do, however, think he thought about it as he realized he would never be able to become the person Susan required him to be. Knowing the deadline of their wedding anniversary was rapidly approaching, I believe he became angrier each day and finally lost his temper that fateful night and either struck, shoved or choked Susan.

He may have already had an idea of which mine shaft would be a good disposal site and was fantasizing about killing Susan.

If he had planned Susan's murder in advance, one would think he would have taken the family on a camping or hiking trip and pushed her off a cliff and claimed she slipped or some caused some other believable accident such as a drowning. At least that would have been more believable than the camping story!

Does anyone have a link to that story? Unless he went to a 24 hour store, he's have had to wait till the morning to buy a cutting torch, or dump the body and then drive back to the store, then go back and retrieve the body to dump it again where the torch would help gain access. I don't think it would be within Josh's ability to cut open a sealed shaft and then seal it again without it being obvious that it had been tampered with. Maybe an expert could do it, but not an amateur.

I agree with your theory PickieChickie, that he could have thought about murder long before it happened, didn't plan it for that particular evening, but once he's committed the crime he was determined to use his previous knowledge to try to cover things up.

If he'd planned it he could have taken Susan on a camping trip in good weather, "helped" her down a mineshaft, and then either reported it as an accident, or as "she wandered away from the family and didn't come back"

 

[RayO]

Does anyone have a link to that story? Unless he went to a 24 hour store, he's have had to wait till the morning to buy a cutting torch, or dump the body and then drive back to the store, then go back and retrieve the body to dump it again where the torch would help gain access. I don't think it would be within Josh's ability to cut open a sealed shaft and then seal it again without it being obvious that it had been tampered with. Maybe an expert could do it, but not an amateur.

I agree with your theory PickieChickie, that he could have thought about murder long before it happened, didn't plan it for that particular evening, but once he's committed the crime he was determined to use his previous knowledge to try to cover things up.

If he'd planned it he could have taken Susan on a camping trip in good weather, "helped" her down a mineshaft, and then either reported it as an accident, or as "she wandered away from the family and didn't come back"

My thinking is he did not plan for this to happen that night. When their marital conflict escalated that evening he ended-up killing her, then he scrambled to deal with her body. Otherwise he could have worked-up a better alibi.

He took her somewhere he knew from prior hiking or camping that there were abandoned mines with the idea of disposing her body that way. When he actually did that, he found he could hide the body more thoroughly if he could get past an iron grate or barrier that had been installed to seal a shaft. So, he went back, cut the barrier with the cutting torch and moved the body into the shaft. Possibly resealing when he was done. Even if that was done, the cutting and resealing would likely look fresh compared to the original install, and probably sloppy since I don't think he had prior experience working with such equipment. And he may have returned another time with the rental car to further cover his tracks and/or be sure he didn't leave behind any clothing, etc, on the trail from the road to the mine.

 

[PickieChickie]

Does anyone have a link to that story? Unless he went to a 24 hour store, he's have had to wait till the morning to buy a cutting torch, or dump the body and then drive back to the store, then go back and retrieve the body to dump it again where the torch would help gain access. I don't think it would be within Josh's ability to cut open a sealed shaft and then seal it again without it being obvious that it had been tampered with. Maybe an expert could do it, but not an amateur.

I agree with your theory PickieChickie, that he could have thought about murder long before it happened, didn't plan it for that particular evening, but once he's committed the crime he was determined to use his previous knowledge to try to cover things up.

If he'd planned it he could have taken Susan on a camping trip in good weather, "helped" her down a mineshaft, and then either reported it as an accident, or as "she wandered away from the family and didn't come back"

He allegedly went to Air Gas in Salt Lake City early Monday morning. I think they open at 7:00 AM on Monday mornings. Someone should call and find out. It was discussed in the "Was Josh seen buying a roll of shrink wrap?" thread here on Websleuths.

 

[KBH5]

Thank goodness someone finally came out and said something to the media! I bet the person got ticked off after hearing Mr. Cox, Susan's father, say he doesn't think Susan is "out there".

I believe this man spoke out because he wanted all the searchers to know that they were on the right track and to not be discouraged by Mr. Cox's evaluation of the situation!

I was under the impression from watching the video and reading the article that Chuck Cox was ONLY referring to the Simpson Springs campground area when he said he didn't think Susan is "out there."

I don't think he meant that she isn't anywhere in the west desert, or down a mine shaft. I think he was only referring to Simpson Springs, since that's where he was at the time and that's where Josh said he went. JMO

 

[PickieChickie]

I was under the impression from watching the video and reading the article that Chuck Cox was ONLY referring to the Simpson Springs campground area when he said he didn't think Susan is "out there."

Thank you for your input! I don't think he meant that she isn't anywhere in the west desert, or down a mine shaft. I think he was only referring to Simpson Springs, since that's where he was at the time and that's where Josh said he went. JMO

I have to wonder exactly how many man hours were spent exploring the Simpson Springs area. I think I remember the West Valley City Chief of Police stating they have spent thousands of hours exploring the Simpson Spring area.

If I am correct, clearly they felt Josh Powell could have accessed that area. We have to keep in mind the snow storm had not hit yet when he claims he drove out there.

With good tires and front wheel drive, that van could make it a lot of places, especially if he had chains.

Chains can at times get a CAR where a truck with 4-wheel drive and NO chains can go.

The only thing preventing the van from going particular places would be the low clearance, bushes, trees, rocks, gates, etc.

The ground was FROZEN so there wasn't mud anywhere.

 

[KBH5]

Sorry, I wasn't able to get the quote part of your message actually quoted. Guess I don't exactly know how these things work.

I'll try to do it by hand. Inside your message, you quote my message above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBH5
I was under the impression from watching the video and reading the article that Chuck Cox was ONLY referring to the Simpson Springs campground area when he said he didn't think Susan is "out there."

Thank you for your input! I don't think he meant that she isn't anywhere in the west desert, or down a mine shaft. I think he was only referring to Simpson Springs, since that's where he was at the time and that's where Josh said he went. JMO
--End quote-- and bbm

I'm really not sure how "Thank you for your input!" got inside my post that you quoted above. Maybe some message board glitch? I didn't write that part, as you can see from my un-edited above post.

:waitasec:

I have to wonder exactly how many man hours were spent exploring the Simpson Springs area. I think I remember the West Valley City Chief of Police stating they have spent thousands of hours exploring the Simpson Spring area.

If I am correct, clearly they felt Josh Powell could have accessed that area. We have to keep in mind the snow storm had not hit yet when he claims he drove out there.

(snipped for space)

I agree about the storm...not sure when the snow started that night (Sunday, Dec. 6) but apparently it came after Josh left the Powell house, whenever he left...because investigators saw no van tracks in the fresh snow on Monday morning in the Powell driveway. That was one reason everyone panicked about the carbon monoxide poisoning possibility...they assumed the van was inside the garage with no tracks in the driveway.

 

[PickieChickie]

Sorry, I wasn't able to get the quote part of your message actually quoted. Guess I don't exactly know how these things work.

I'll try to do it by hand. Inside your message, you quote my message above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBH5
I was under the impression from watching the video and reading the article that Chuck Cox was ONLY referring to the Simpson Springs campground area when he said he didn't think Susan is "out there."

Thank you for your input! I don't think he meant that she isn't anywhere in the west desert, or down a mine shaft. I think he was only referring to Simpson Springs, since that's where he was at the time and that's where Josh said he went. JMO
--End quote-- and bbm

I'm really not sure how "Thank you for your input!" got inside my post that you quoted above. Maybe some message board glitch? I didn't write that part, as you can see from my un-edited above post.

:waitasec:

(snipped for space)

I agree about the storm...not sure when the snow started that night (Sunday, Dec. 6) but apparently it came after Josh left the Powell house, whenever he left...because investigators saw no van tracks in the fresh snow on Monday morning in the Powell driveway. That was one reason everyone panicked about the carbon monoxide poisoning possibility...they assumed the van was inside the garage with no tracks in the driveway.

When I typed my response to you, I started it off with "Thank you for your input." What's odd is that I don't see it on my post at all! OK: I accidentally typed it in the quote from you. It was an after thought because I didn't want to sound like I was belittling you.

 

[KBH5]

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[dld804]

why don't they just arrest him. This case reminds me more and more of Drew Peterson.

 

[PickieChickie]

why don't they just arrest him. This case reminds me more and more of Drew Peterson.

It is very difficult to convict someone for murder when there is no body. Therefore, the district attorney is waiting for Susan's body to be found, for credible witnesses to come forward and/or for the results of their current wire tapping, bugging, GPS monitoring, etc. to pad their case with enough evidence to insure a conviction.

If Susan's body is not found, we can expect to wait at least two years before Josh is indicted and tried for murder on circumstantial evidence alone.

It is critical that the DA has all the evidence they possibly can before they charge Josh with murdering Susan. If they mess up, and Josh is found innocent, he can never be tried again.

It's better to wait than rush into things.

 

[dovebar]

The van wouldn't do well on a steep incline, which means he probably didn't go somewhere like up Parley's Canyon.

It wouldn't do well on a deeply rutted dirt road, which means he probably didn't drive deeply into the western mountains, because they get to dirt road pretty quickly.

That means any dump site or mine needs to be pretty accessible by van. Given Susan's dead weight, no one would walk that far with a body in that weather.

Would little boys be trusted to stay in the van?
Would they have been drugged to sleep through it?
Were they enlisted to help carry one end of her body?

I don't know, just wondering.

My money would be on a dump site, mine or otherwise, that would be close to the road for these reasons. Kids could be told to stay in the van and the killer could be gone only a short time, so that the kids wouldn't be tempted to get out.

Perhaps dumped that night and sealed up later when the rental car was available.

 

[RayO]

Regarding the snow question, at the Salt Lake International Airport it started snowing at 3am Sunday and snowed until about 10 am. Then it stopped and restarted at 10pm, snowing off and on until about 7 am MST Monday morning.

Here are the highs and lows

Sunday high 24 F, 0.7 inches of new snow, 1 inch of snow on the ground
Monday morning low 17 F, 0.4 inches of new snow, 1 inch of snow on the ground
Monday daytime high 24 F

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSLC/2009/12/6/DailyHistory.html
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSLC/2009/12/7/DailyHistory.html

scroll to the bottom to see the hour-by-hour info

Of course in this sort of terrain there are a lot of variations in temperature and snow with elevation and local slope of the elevation with respect to the wind (upslope or downslope). The SLC airport is pretty close to West Valley City, but may or may represent the weather at the "campsite" or at whatever location Josh and the kids spent the night.

 

[RubyRed]

why don't they just arrest him. This case reminds me more and more of Drew Peterson.

I feel the same way and then I read what pickie wrote and it makes sense why they are waiting.

It is very difficult to convict someone for murder when there is no body. Therefore, the district attorney is waiting for Susan's body to be found, for credible witnesses to come forward and/or for the results of their current wire tapping, bugging, GPS monitoring, etc. to pad their case with enough evidence to insure a conviction.

If Susan's body is not found, we can expect to wait at least two years before Josh is indicted and tried for murder on circumstantial evidence alone.

It is critical that the DA has all the evidence they possibly can before they charge Josh with murdering Susan. If they mess up, and Josh is found innocent, he can never be tried again.

It's better to wait than rush into things.

 

[grayjay]

Very interesting and useful about the amounts of snow, Ray. Nice work.

I realize the boys may not have been near real "woods" or may have been fooled about where they were. Then I started to think some more about how they had to be told mommy was staying there because they knew she left the van and didn't come back. They didn't think she was at home sleeping.

I had been picturing either she had to walk out of the van or be in some sort of a bundle not easily recognized by a four year old. Now I'm wondering all over again about this and am trying to come up with a picture of just what had to be explained away.

It might have made Charlie very upset if he made the connection between the bad weather and mommy staying in the woods. But quite possibly not, because I remember my own four year old packing her tiny backpack to run away from home at that age.