3-28-19 SWAT team with guns drawn raids Arizona home for toddler w/fever

[katydid23]

The cost of an urgent care visit would be much less than the ER for someone without insurance.

The initial recommendation was based on both the wrong diagnosis and a high temp.

After the temp dropped so quickly, why would an urgent care visit not have been an option?

The drug testing might be a standard request. It does not mean they were addicts. The house is messy which might be because people were sick. There is a difference between messy and filthy. Also, one punch in the wall, does not necessarily mean that they were living in a violent household. There are a lot of assumptions being made here.

Evaluating these issues, now is good, but it is unfair to assume, that the kids are better off, without their family. The current goal is to reunite them with their family.

If the family had gone to urgent care the whole mess could have been avoided

The ER doc would have spoken to a nurse at urgent care and been told the child was being cared for medically. End of problem

The parents did not do this. They refused to allow anyone to check on the health of their child and created this situation themselves. The doctor has the responsibility to be an advocate for a sick child and I am glad he forced the issue

 

[Breezie]

If the family had gone to urgent care the whole mess could have been avoided

The ER doc would have spoken to a nurse at urgent care and been told the child was being cared for medically. End of problem

The parents did not do this. They refused to allow anyone to check on the health of their child and created this situation themselves. The doctor has the responsibility to be an advocate for a sick child and I am glad he forced the issue

Yes, it also would depend how late the UR Care is open. Some are open 7 to 7, others are open till 9. The Drs. visit, was during dinner time, so it might not have been an option to go there then.

Just checking some sites, out of curiosity, one can supposedly wait for a warrant, but the advice for those, who chose to do this, is to go straight to a doctor, with their kids, and get a health clearance, even if they are very healthy.

A visit is usually going to be some sort of wellness check, so being proactive, kind of makes sense.

When the first knock happened, they could have still left for the ER. It might have been expensive, but less costly, then waiting to take a chance, on being able to go a doc in the morning.

 

[cobalt sky]

Respiratory syncytial virus - Symptoms and causes
RSV is so common, the doctor should have known about it, and given them the option to go to urgent care, since the fever was almost gone.

RSBM

I'm sorry if I missed it, but where did it say that the Dr. told the parents they can't take the child to an urgent care?

 

[Simply Southern]

Yes, it also would depend how late the UR Care is open. Some are open 7 to 7, others are open till 9. The Drs. visit, was during dinner time, so it might not have been an option to go there then.

Just checking some sites, out of curiosity, one can supposedly wait for a warrant, but the advice for those, who chose to do this, is to go straight to a doctor, with their kids, and get a health clearance, even if they are very healthy.

A visit is usually going to be some sort of wellness check, so being proactive, kind of makes sense.

When the first knock happened, they could have still left for the ER. It might have been expensive, but less costly, then waiting to take a chance, on being able to go a doc in the morning.

I do, agree!!! If LE told me they were coming back with a warrant, you can bet your sweet bibby, me and the kids would be riding out pretty quick, daddy or not. I would have the ER call LE immediately to advise, we have seen the light and made haste for emergency care. The ER visit is the least costly and the path of least resistance, always my first choice. I suspect the DCS Oversite and the State Rep, are assisting with attorney fees. In one video, I didn't post, the media was interviewing anti vaccination advocates that were in the lobby of the court house. This was never mentioned in court.

My heart hurts to think about the fear, being scared, going to ER in an ambulance and the parents not there. They were sick, 6, 4 and 2 yo's need mommy when they are sick. This had to be an unimaginable traumatic event. Police, SWAT, all the neighbors in the yard, ambulance, it had to be a nightmare. God, Bless these children.

I pray mom and dad will fall in with the program, follow the plan to bring these kids home. IMO, CASA, DSS and the guardian ad litem, will be following this for at least a year.

 

[Breezie]

Police bust into Chandler home, remove kids after clinic reports medical emergency.

“And so I called the doctor back and said ‘Hey, I’m not sure how you got this 105 reading, my son’s acting fine. This doesn’t really seem like a medical emergency,'” Beck said.

She said the temp was 102, during the car ride home, and it was supposedly down to 100, after they returned home.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...l-fever-armed-police-officers-tore-down-door/

From his client’s perspective, Boca added, there was never a need for emergency medical treatment. He pointed out that hours had gone by before the doctor got in touch with DCS. “If this was such an immediate emergency, why didn’t the doctor put the child in an ice bath?” he asked. “Why didn’t the doctor have the child directly transported to the emergency room?”

The initial diagnosis was wrong. It sounds like they might be trying to bring up the possibility, that the clinic thermometer was faulty, or something caused the temp to be off, at the clinic.

They should have just gotten a second medical opinion. What if clinic temp was just a fluke?

 

[human]

If your child theorectically has a 105 temp, why would you mess around with that?

 

[Breezie]

If your child theorectically has a 105 temp, why would you mess around with that?

Yes, they should have gotten a second medical opinion, somewhere. Even though the clinic doc turned out to be wrong, they could have avoided all that trouble, with a second medical opinion.

 

[Simply Southern]

"Second opinion", they needed an MD opinion!!
They took the child to, a Naturopathic person, yes it was the wrong diagnosis, she wasn't a Doctor!!! When she said take to ER, that alone tells me, the kid was REAL sick. We have discussed the child needed a medical facility, an MD, which LE and DSS were able to provide. The child was admitted.

I do not know what's up with this mom and dad but they did everything they could to force LE intervention. They wonna, gonna be told what to do.

Yeap, they have lawyered up, only telling what makes them look good. They are not working to restore parental rights, but do have time for all the interviews. Hum....

Glad the kids were saved from these two!! JMHO

 

[abeaman02]

It seems like it was a catch 22, if DCS and the police did not intervene and the child or children had died people would be blaming DCS and the police for not protecting them or for not following through.
Now that the child is OK DCS and the police are being vilified for interfering. To me it seems like a no win situation MOO

A couple decided not to take their feverish child to the hospital. Hours later police kicked down their door
"At about 11:30 p.m., the caseworker informed officers that DCS planned to obtain a "temporary custody notice" from a judge to remove the child for emergency medical aid.

The caseworker “advised they obtained a court order for temporary custody in order to take (redacted) to the hospital.” The order was signed at 12:04 a.m. by Judge Tracy Nadzieja, according to police records."

 

[Breezie]

"Second opinion", they needed an MD opinion!!
They took the child to, a Naturopathic person, yes it was the wrong diagnosis, she wasn't a Doctor!!! When she said take to ER, that alone tells me, the kid was REAL sick. We have discussed the child needed a medical facility, an MD, which LE and DSS were able to provide. The child was admitted.

I do not know what's up with this mom and dad but they did everything they could to force LE intervention. They wonna, gonna be told what to do.

Yeap, they have lawyered up, only telling what makes them look good. They are not working to restore parental rights, but do have time for all the interviews. Hum....

Glad the kids were saved from these two!! JMHO

Good point! They needed a medical opinion. If they had gone to Urgent Care, instead of the Naturopathic clinic, they probably would have avoided the whole mess. Urgent Care would have been more likely to get the correct diagnosis. They probably would have checked the temp a few times or more. If it was consistently high, Urgent Care might not have let them walk out, like the Naturopathic doctor had done.


Once the son arrived at the hospital, the staff were expecting someone with meningitis, so he had to be admitted, even if the temp was 100 or lower then.

 

[Breezie]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...l-fever-armed-police-officers-tore-down-door/

The doctor told her she couldn’t, and warned her that she would have to report her to the authorities if she didn’t take her son to the hospital or to an urgent care clinic soon.

This article mentions that there may have been an option to go to Urgent Care, but as it got later, the only option left would have been the ER.

 

[gitana1]

I agree, the parents should of, could of, opened the door and shown the child the FIRST time the police arrived. They could have opened the door when the SWAT team arrived. The parents made that choice to have SWAT kick in the door.

As, for the 2500. ER visit. Why were the kids uninsured???? Why did they not have Medicaid????
All hospitals have indigent care programs for the uninsured usually waving all fees

Everyday, we read about abused children that die at the hands of parental abuse. Their is more to this story....

Maybe because they're unvaccinated to no one will insure them?

 

[gitana1]

Questions raised after Chandler police break door to check on feverish toddler

A DCS investigator, a former police officer, took the stand. She said upon visiting the hospital, doctors found the toddler had RSV, a respiratory virus that can cause serious illness in young children. She said the parents weren’t complying with DCS' request to provide medical records for the children. She said they also weren’t following steps to regain custody of their children.

This is a long, very detailed article which appears to represent more fact.

According to this there were six attempts to get the parents to allow the child to be checked on by the police or the hospital, with no response, before the door was broken in. And some of the attempts included multiple calls or repeated knocking.

 

[gitana1]

RSBM. The issue is, it's not clear what treatment the child received when he was seen by the original Dr. I would be surprised if the child was allowed to leave the Dr. office with a >105 fever (the Dr. could be at risk for law suits if the child was allowed to leave and then seized or worse) without being given Tylenol or something to control the fever (antipyretic). If the child did receive such medication, then you would expect the fever to have "broke" a short time later, which matches the time that the mother said the child's fever had gone down and he was playing with his siblings. The problem is, just because an antipyretic is successful at reducing the fever, there could still be a dangerous undiagnosed condition that needs further treatment. Which is why the Dr. was insistent on the mother taking the child to the Emergency Room for further workup. IMO.

Oh. That makes sense.

 

[gitana1]

It is likely they sought care and advice there because it aligned with their view and approach to medicine, MOO.

Yup. And even those people said, "You need a real doctor."

 

[gitana1]

I have to keep in mind thst the description of that conversation is coming from the parents attorney. I think it might be framed in a way that Is not positive towards DCS

I am quite sure thst the parents were already informed ,a few times , about what they needed to do to regain custody. There is an entire large department dedicated solely to keeping families together.

Just because the abuse investigator did not have that information off the top of their head—it doesn’t mean the case workers had not fully informed the parents what steps they needed to take

Yes and the list of things they need to do is well spelled out in their detailed case plans.

 

[Simply Southern]

Maybe because they're unvaccinated to no one will insure them?

Nope, Insurance can not deny coverage for unvaccinated children. We are still under the laws of Affordable Care Act and no preexisting conditions still apply. They were not married, so maybe he could not cover under his employers plan, but Mom and the kids could of applied for Medicaid or ACA insurance. Mom is very pregnant, so it would be cheaper than private pay.

 

[gitana1]

Nope, Insurance can not deny coverage for unvaccinated children. We are still under the laws of Affordable Care Act and no preexisting conditions still apply. They were not married, so maybe he could not cover under his employers plan, but Mom and the kids could of applied for Medicaid or ACA insurance. Mom is very pregnant, so it would be cheaper than private pay.

Not being vaccinated is not a preexisting condition. Preexisting conditions are illnesses or disabilities. Medical issues. Not a failure to treat.

But regardless, my cousin is an anti-vaxxer. They do have insuance but the medical group of doctors they go to will no longer allow unvaccinated kids into the building to receive care if they continually refuse to get vaccines after many months.

Their oldest child has to be seen by their doctor at a location outside the office. The doctor is somewhat sympathetic so agreed to to do so.

The youngest is still a baby.

We are in CA.

 

[Laughing]

Yup. And even those people said, "You need a real doctor."

Gitana, always good to hear your take on any case!

 

[Simply Southern]

Not being vaccinated is not a preexisting condition. Preexisting conditions are illnesses or disabilities. Medical issues. Not a failure to treat.

But regardless, my cousin is an anti-vaxxer. They do have insuance but the medical group of doctors they go to will no longer allow unvaccinated kids into the building to receive care if they continually refuse to get vaccines after many months.

Their oldest child has to be seen by their doctor at a location outside the office. The doctor is somewhat sympathetic so agreed to to do so.

The youngest is still a baby.

We are in CA.

Didn't mean to imply preexisting and anti vaccination were the same, just trying to demonstrate the safe guards were have for insurabilty.

It is becoming more difficult for those who do not vaccinate due to liability with medical professionals, school and public venues.

We have a group in our community who do not vaccinate and I respect their decisions. When I grew up we didn't have all the vaccines we do today, I had red measles, chicken pox and whopping cough. I survived but, I remember being really sick.

Two years ago, we had a whopping cough outbreak that hospitalized several infants. Several mothers made the decision to seek the vaccine.

Given the facts, 105 temp, other symptoms, refusal to follow instructions to seek medical treatment, refusing to answer door for police and SWAT... I don't think this was about the vaccine. IMHO...