4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 75

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Sure: here are a few.

Taking his phone with him.
Turning his phone off.
Driving his own car.
His erratic driving around the house prior to parking.
Parking so close to the house.
Not avoiding the cameras in the neighborhood.
Leaving his sheath.
Leaving his dna on the sheath.
Wearing shoes with a distinquishable, patented sole.
Speeding away from the crime scene.
Coming back to the house the next day.

MOO
edit: added dna on sheath

I agree he made all these errors and even more

However, I wonder something, had his DNA not have been located on the knife sheath, would he be 'getting away' with this crime right now?

Assuming he's guilty, did he really think he'd perpetrated something he could never be held accountable for? And was he nearly correct in that idea? Or would all the other evidence be enough to have tracked him?

 

[Nila Aella]

I agree he made all these errors and even more

However, I wonder something, had his DNA not have been located on the knife sheath, would he be 'getting away' with this crime right now?

Assuming he's guilty, did he really think he'd perpetrated something he could never be held accountable for? And was he nearly correct in that idea? Or would all the other evidence be enough to have tracked him?

I believe LE saw the car driving so obviously strange and that is why they zeroed in on the car, then him. It might have taken longer without the dna, but he would still end up where he is now IMO.

 

[WingsOverTX]

It occurs to me--and I am speculating--that KG probably didn't know last June that she would have a full-time job in TX before the lease she signed was up.

On the previous page, GhostWheel already covered this possibility in greater detail than I.

Why would that mean moving out before the end of the semester? I thought she planned to travel in Europe in January before her job started in February.

I have been bugged by not knowing how long KG lived at the house & why she "moved out early" since that info became public. We just don't know enough to satisfy these questions with FACTS. I want the FACTS and hope we will eventually have an understanding of the whys.

I appreciate everyone's speculations but I need more. Maybe it won't matter to these crimes when more facts are known about KG. But I find it to be - like the DD driver's crazy timing - too odd.

JMO

 

[Sundog]

Snipped by me.

IME, that's the case regardless of when they graduate. Even students at spring ceremonies don't get their diplomas when they walk across the stage, IME. JMO.

Kaylee may have had the credits to finish in-class learning and her family may not have realized she wouldn't actually graduate until the spring. Who knows. Unless she had graduation announcements printed or was scheduled to receive her cap and gown, we really don't know if she was supposed to graduate in December. My personal opinion is that if she was, they would have given her the posthumous degree and her name would have been mentioned in the December program. I think it's likely her name will be mentioned in the May graduation program. MM too, hopefully. MOO.



Does UI not award posthumous degrees at fall graduation? How early would the graduation program have to be sent for publication in your experience?

Does UI not award posthumous degrees at fall graduation? How early would the graduation program have to be sent for publication in your experience?

<snipped by me>

I am sure that U of Idaho awards posthumous degrees at both their fall and spring graduations. Most universities do so.

With regard to the graduate program, our marketing and communications staff and the printer they work with are able to make minor changes right up to a few weeks before commencement. But our university doesn't include the names of the graduates in the program. We are a much larger university than University of Idaho, and also a list would only include the names of students who registered to attend well in advance of the university's deadline.

At U of Idaho, the official list of fall 2022 graduates is provided by the registrar a few months later and released to the public and media - see link below.

List of fall 2022 graduates released by the Registrar's Office in February 2023 -

University of Idaho Announces Fall 2022 Graduates

www.uidaho.edu

 

[gliving]

KG had a LinkedIn account and may actually have known to to use that to her advantage. Or perhaps she knew someone who worked there. Or maybe she applied directly. Or maybe they invented an internship just for her, based on other contacts and networking.

snipped by me for focus

I've looked for KG's LinkedIn account and haven't been able to find it. Do you happen to have a link? Missy Bevers' LinkedIn private messages played an important role in her murder case so I'm curious if there will be warrants for Kaylee's. Thanks!

Edit to add a link for Missy's LinkedIn messages. Could Kaylee's LinkedIn account also hold clues?

Docs: Church murder victim received "creepy" LinkedIn message

New search warrants detail communications Terri "Missy" Bevers received over cell phones and LinkedIn before her death

www.cbsnews.com

 

[10ofRods]

I hope we learn 1) Why she moved in & 2) Why she moved back home before her last semester ended. She still had furnishings, including a bed, at 1122 King on the night of the murders. I don't think she really had "moved out" - I think she left for a reason but probably nothing nefarious. She was moving far away to Texas soon. Maybe that was a factor? The G's seem like a close family.

Are we sure Fall 2022 was her first time living in this house?

Like you, I am curious. Maybe we will find out her decision to leave the house early is benign but maybe - just maybe - we won't.

JMO

I can't find the link, but I believe KG had lived freshman year in a dorm, two years in a sorority (as had MM) and then both girls decided to live their senior year in an off campus house. XK had lived at the same sorority as MM (and BF, not sure about DM). Somewhere there's also a mention of how the house was noisy/creaky from a young man who had lived there the prior year, IMO. Someone found a venmo or similar account that supported KG only just starting to make payments for rent that year, IIRC.

I haven't read this entire thread yet, maybe someone else has already remembered more than I. I'm looking for more info (in MSM) on DM's being in a sorority or not.

IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I believe LE saw the car driving so obviously strange and that is why they zeroed in on the car, then him. It might have taken longer without the dna, but he would still end up where he is now IMO.

I'm not so sure. A car driving erratically and even his phone pinging in the area don't place him inside the home. Without the DNA or even the murder weapon, cops may have a good idea he's their guy, but I highly doubt they'd have enough to charge him.

Relative to other criminals, including some LE types guilty of crimes, I really don't think BK was as stupid as some do. MOO. I mean, the house was a bloody mess according to LE, yet there was only ONE partial footprint? How did that happen? He killed 4 people in 15 minutes and yet, the only DNA is on the snap of the knife sheath (as far as we know)?

For a killer, any killer, to get in and out and kill 4 people in the process without leaving a drop of his own blood at the crime scene, without leaving his own blood footprints and fingerprints, without leaving any other DNA (besides the snap, as far as we know), there, isn't as stupid/sloppy as some have said. It certainly wasn't perfect in any way, shape, or form and he absolutely made a lot of mistakes. But as far as crimes like this go, I think it wasn't nearly as clumsy as has been said.

All just MOO.

ETA: "as far as we know" bolded because I fully recognize that there could be more info than the PCA revealed. I'm going exclusively by the facts we're privy to at this time only and not theories that other DNA was left.

 

[Ghostwheel]

IME it would be unusual for a university to change the credits on an offering a student has already taken (or is in the process of taking) so she can finish early for a job or other obligation. Accrediting agencies are pretty strict about that sort of thing IME. I'm not saying it couldn't happen but it sounds very weird to me.

If K was suddenly going to be able to graduate earlier than she thought, I'd guess she was able to sign up for an extra fall online course or maybe at that point created some sort of "independent study" for fall. Lots of schools are strict about those too though as they sometimes have a bad reputation (especially if used by athletic staff to maintain players' eligibility.) And of course she wasn't on the graduation list so we don't really know what that all means. Posthumous graduations aren't that uncommon but fiddling with credits for a job, convenience, or a wedding, etc are at least IME. Even impending childbirth wouldn't work at universities where I've been employed. If timing out was a problem deadlines could be extended but no "go, we'll change the hours you needed to graduate and/or give you more credit for offerings than others get."
JMO

I do want to point out convenience, childbirth and a wedding are not remotely the same as a job, which is usually the reason a person gets a higher education or advanced degree in the first place: to get a good job or to advance their position. To conflate convenience, childbirth or a wedding with a job is missing the point. I did NOT say the students did not do eligible work, just that it could be agreed on, after the fact that eligible work was worth more credit than originally thought, or that some other credit was eligible to finish the degree that was unknown previously or that the actual job could count as credits to graduate (this was a special contract for the person that I knew who graduated this way).

While I understand that there may be some Universities that are stickers for having all things identical and to specifics for every single student with absolutely no allowances for anything outside their already put in place boundaries, I am aware of many that are not that way so I thought I'd throw it out there. Many universities have the goal of their students getting meaningful employment with the degree they earn and recognize that sometimes a student has done something not within the university norms that would actually be eligible for credit. The student does have to ASK and make their case. (Eta and it's not guaranteed what is asked for will be granted, but if you don't ask, you don't get)

I have no idea if U of I is this way or not, but my point was simply if she likely planned to stay the whole year and circumstances, whatever they were, allowed her to not have to come back to campus to graduate, that might be why she was only there a few months. Life sometimes gets in the way of plans.

JMO.

 

[rainbowshummingbird]

Sure: here are a few.

Taking his phone with him.
Turning his phone off.
Driving his own car.
His erratic driving around the house prior to parking.
Parking so close to the house.
Not avoiding the cameras in the neighborhood.
Leaving his sheath.
Leaving his dna on the sheath.
Wearing shoes with a distinquishable, patented sole.
Speeding away from the crime scene.
Coming back to the house the next day.

MOO
edit: added dna on sheath

He was observed by LE placing his trash in his neighbor’s trash can. Also, inside his home he was seen organizing trash into separate zip loc baggies. I’m not sure if I would call these specific things “mistakes” or if I’d call it incriminating behavior.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

The date and time of sales and deliveries was of interest to LE as well. Maybe to show that it was normal to have orders delivered early morning hours, who ordered, who delivered, how it was delivered (in person or left).MOO
They also asked for full description of vehicles used.

RSBM


the warrant requests:

• all information in your possession or control related to sales, deliveries, purchases, and/or transactions made to 1122 King Road, Moscow, Idaho 83 843 for flre period of January 1, 2022 to present, to include:date and time of sales;
• date and time ofdeliveries;
• purchases and/or transactions;
• name and identification of the drivers;
• a full description of the vehicles used;
• any and all communications between drivers and the purchasers;

Those are big asks that require probable cause because
“no intrusion at all is justified without a careful prior determination of necessity".

If you skip to this

III. PROBABLE CAUSE AND PARTICULARITY AT STEP TWO​

Geofence Warrants and the Fourth Amendment

Introduction: If You Build It, They Will Come For months, Zachary McCoy tracked the distance of his bike rides around his neighborhood in Gainesville, Florida, using his RunKeeper app.See Jon Schuppe,

harvardlawreview.org

you'll find nicely written descriptions that explain: defining what is searched, probable cause, and particularity.

Although it's Harvard Law Review, it's not stuffy, but is written in language for humans imo jmo

But imo jmo ime what we know from the 4th amendment of the constitution and a ton o'case law supporting it:

LE cannot get a warrant to demontrate what is 'normal', nor can they request personal communications between drivers and victims to show what is 'normal'.

This outlines in very clear layman's terms what is required for a warrant and there are links to each term for more detailed explanation:

search warrant

www.law.cornell.edu

The type of warrant requested by LE is not a geofence-type warrant (those are problematic for the reasons cited in the law review link). LE had to have probable cause to get this DD warrant. Probable cause requires specificity to time and location, and relation to crime. Relation to crime does not mean some general thing like being sure or ruling out or setting the normal bar.

The 4th amendment of the US Constitution requires that warrants be issued only “upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”49×49. U.S. CONST. amend. IV.

When LE signs the warrant, they are attesting that they believe probable cause exists AND that it exists for the reasons stated in the affidavit. (you can google the penalties for the affiant for lying or misrepresenting).
imo jmo ime and fact

https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/statutesrules/idstat/Title19/T19CH44.pdf

This warrant is supported by an affidavit that is sealed -- as are almost all of these -- and, therefore, not on this list here: Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest

Before a warrant can be issued, a judge must determine that a warrant application has sufficiently established probable cause. LE would need to prove that those records related to this crime.

The affidavit contains the evidence related to PC. We do not know what was in the affidavit,
but we do know that it contains more than a request for a warrant based on determining what was normal because normal isn't pc. imo jmo ime

This language is from this warrant:

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20DoorDash%20Inc.pdf

Therefore, the court finds it necessary to seal in part and redact the record related to the search warrant because the documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person. I.C.A.R. 32(i)(2)(A). After due consideration and with good cause appearing,
IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that the record herein shall be disclosed except for the following:
1.
The Afiidavit in Support of Search Warrant and the Amended Aflidavit in Support of Search Warrant be SEALED.
The Search Warrant, Amended Search Warrant and Receipt and Inventory be REDACTED.

this really does lay it out well for those who want an understanding:

Geofence Warrants and the Fourth Amendment

Introduction: If You Build It, They Will Come For months, Zachary McCoy tracked the distance of his bike rides around his neighborhood in Gainesville, Florida, using his RunKeeper app.See Jon Schuppe,

harvardlawreview.org

edited to delete extra bullet point and add 4 words and a link

 

[Ghostwheel]

Why would that mean moving out before the end of the semester? I thought she planned to travel in Europe in January before her job started in February.

I have been bugged by not knowing how long KG lived at the house & why she "moved out early" since that info became public. We just don't know enough to satisfy these questions with FACTS. I want the FACTS and hope we will eventually have an understanding of the whys.

I appreciate everyone's speculations but I need more. Maybe it won't matter to these crimes when more facts are known about KG. But I find it to be - like the DD driver's crazy timing - too odd.

JMO

I am curious. You ask "Why would that mean moving out before the end of the semester? " There are a lot of reasons someone would would do that but I see that you don't want possible reasons but facts which is fine.

Real questions so I can understand. Why would when KG moved in and why she "moved out early" matter? Is the exact date she moved in important? Are you trying to link that with something else? With the exception of moving out because she was afraid of a stalker (not saying the was the case, just as a possibility), why would it matter why she left early (hard to say moved out since some things were still there). Is that something you are trying to link to something?

TIA

 

[Sundog]

I do want to point out convenience, childbirth and a wedding are not remotely the same as a job, which is usually the reason a person gets a higher education or advanced degree in the first place: to get a good job or to advance their position. To conflate convenience, childbirth or a wedding with a job is missing the point. I did NOT say the students did not do eligible work, just that it could be agreed on, after the fact that eligible work was worth more credit than originally thought, or that some other credit was eligible to finish the degree that was unknown previously or that the actual job could count as credits to graduate (this was a special contract for the person that I knew who graduated this way).

While I understand that there may be some Universities that are stickers for having all things identical and to specifics for every single student with absolutely no allowances for anything outside their already put in place boundaries, I am aware of many that are not that way so I thought I'd throw it out there. Many universities have the goal of their students getting meaningful employment with the degree they earn and recognize that sometimes a student has done something not within the university norms that would actually be eligible for credit. The student does have to ASK and make their case. (Eta and it's not guaranteed what is asked for will be granted, but if you don't ask, you don't get)

I have no idea if U of I is this way or not, but my point was simply if she likely planned to stay the whole year and circumstances, whatever they were, allowed her to not have to come back to campus to graduate, that might be why she was only there a few months. Life sometimes gets in the way of plans.

JMO.

There is no way this would happen, IMO. University policies on credits, etc. are clearly stated in policy manuals at the university-level, college-level, and department-level. Even in 2021-2022 during the height of Covid-19, there were no exceptions, so universities had to develop interim policies to accomodate various scenarios, whether it was through the offices of disability services or interim policies on incompletes (extended beyond the normal timeframe allowed), etc. These were documented and shared with students, faculty, and Board members. Students are bound to the policies in the handbook for the year they begin their studies. These interim policies have to be integrated into these policy guidelines in case of disagreements/ lawsuits at a later date. This is not about universities being "sticklers," it's about ensuring a fair and transparent policy that applies to all students. IMO, nothing like this happened.

I think Kaylee was either finishing an incomplete for a course from summer 2022 or earlier and planned to graduate in December. I think she would have handed in her final assignment by the deadline in December, but that option was denied to her by her murderer.

JMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Where did the police say "the house was a bloody mess"? What they did say is that it was a bloody crime scene. Given how few stabbings/murders Moscow has, it's not surprising that it would be very bloody (all four died of exsanguination, after all). However, I do believe this murderer took many steps to make sure that he, himself, was not very bloody - and I do not believe that this was some crazy bloody crime scene to the degree that it would make the record books (there was no dismemberment, for example). "Sloppy" means that the murderer made mistakes, left things behind (such as, well, a knife sheath). Obviously, he also left footprints - likely some visible ones. He also created blood transfer from the first room to the second room, even if wearing gloves.

The roommates, upon awakening the next morning, do not see a "bloody mess" or they wouldn't have been questioning what was wrong with Xana and Ethan. By the time the killer walks past DM's room, there's so little blood on the sole of his shoe that the print is invisible, even with luminol (which was done early in the case). Without Amido black, that print would not have been found.

Any quadruple stabbing is going to look shockingly bloody, but making the house into a "bloody mess" (when we can see in the press telephoto shots that things in the kitchen look pretty normal and DM noticed no bloody mess when she arose) is a bit of a stretch, to me. But then, I'm really into trying to figure out the forensics of these murders (particular the manner of injury) with the scant information we have.

I believe there was lots of blood in two places in the house, but a lot of it was soaked into bedding and mattresses. Xana ended up on the floor and it's my guess that it was her blood that they will find composed the latent print.

IMO. IME.

 

[Nila Aella]

I'm not so sure. A car driving erratically and even his phone pinging in the area don't place him inside the home. Without the DNA or even the murder weapon, cops may have a good idea he's their guy, but I highly doubt they'd have enough to charge him.

Relative to other criminals, including some LE types guilty of crimes, I really don't think BK was as stupid as some do. MOO. I mean, the house was a bloody mess according to LE, yet there was only ONE partial footprint? How did that happen? He killed 4 people in 15 minutes and yet, the only DNA is on the snap of the knife sheath (as far as we know)?

For a killer, any killer, to get in and out and kill 4 people in the process without leaving a drop of his own blood at the crime scene, without leaving his own blood footprints and fingerprints, without leaving any other DNA (besides the snap, as far as we know), there, isn't as stupid/sloppy as some have said. It certainly wasn't perfect in any way, shape, or form and he absolutely made a lot of mistakes. But as far as crimes like this go, I think it wasn't nearly as clumsy as has been said.

All just MOO.

ETA: "as far as we know" bolded because I fully recognize that there could be more info than the PCA revealed. I'm going exclusively by the facts we're privy to at this time only and not theories that other DNA was left.

With all the mistakes made outside the house, how could he be so meticulous inside the house?
Factor in that it was done in such a small window of time and with at least one victim fighting back (if not more). I believe there will be more evidence inside the house that hasn't been included in the PCA.

MOO

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

With all the mistakes made outside the house, how could he be so meticulous inside the house?
Factor in that it was done in such a small window of time and with at least one victim fighting back (if not more). I believe there will be more evidence inside the house that hasn't been included in the PCA.

MOO

or, potentially, there are other logical explanations that we don't know about and that is one reason for sealing the affidavits so tightly. I'm open to all these things at this point but jmo imo there's more than one reason the affidavits are sealed even though warrants were just redacted. lots of clues to fit together based on date of original warrant imo jmo

 

[Nila Aella]

RSBM


the warrant requests:

• all information in your possession or control related to sales, deliveries, purchases, and/or transactions made to 1122 King Road, Moscow, Idaho 83 843 for flre period of January 1, 2022 to present, to include:date and time of sales;
• date and time ofdeliveries;
• purchases and/or transactions;
• name and identification of the drivers;
• a full description of the vehicles used;
• any and all communications between drivers and the purchasers;

Those are big asks that require probable cause because
“no intrusion at all is justified without a careful prior determination of necessity".

If you skip to this

III. PROBABLE CAUSE AND PARTICULARITY AT STEP TWO​

Geofence Warrants and the Fourth Amendment

Introduction: If You Build It, They Will Come For months, Zachary McCoy tracked the distance of his bike rides around his neighborhood in Gainesville, Florida, using his RunKeeper app.See Jon Schuppe,

harvardlawreview.org

you'll find nicely written descriptions that explain: defining what is searched, probable cause, and particularity.

Although it's Harvard Law Review, it's not stuffy, but is written in language for humans imo jmo

But imo jmo ime what we know from the 4th amendment of the constitution and a ton o'case law supporting it:

LE cannot get a warrant to demontrate what is 'normal', nor can they request personal communications between drivers and victims to show what is 'normal'.

This outlines in very clear layman's terms what is required for a warrant and there are links to each term for more detailed explanation:

search warrant

www.law.cornell.edu

The type of warrant requested by LE is not a geofence-type warrant (those are problematic for the reasons cited in the law review link). LE had to have probable cause to get this DD warrant. Probable cause requires specificity to time and location, and relation to crime. Relation to crime does not mean some general thing like being sure or ruling out or setting the normal bar.

The 4th amendment of the US Constitution requires that warrants be issued only “upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”49×49. U.S. CONST. amend. IV.

When LE signs the warrant, they are attesting that they believe probable cause exists AND that it exists for the reasons stated in the affidavit. (you can google the penalties for the affiant for lying or misrepresenting).
imo jmo ime and fact

https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/statutesrules/idstat/Title19/T19CH44.pdf

This warrant -- as are almost all of these -- is supported by an affidavit that is sealed and, therefore, not on this list.

Before a warrant can be issued, a judge must determine that a warrant application has sufficiently established probable cause. LE would need to prove that those records related to this crime.

The affidavit contains the evidence related to PC. We do not know what was in the affidavit,
but we do know that it contains more than a request for a warrant based on determining what was normal because normal isn't pc. imo jmo ime

This language is from this warrant:

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20DoorDash%20Inc.pdf

Therefore, the court finds it necessary to seal in part and redact the record related to the search warrant because the documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person. I.C.A.R. 32(i)(2)(A). After due consideration and with good cause appearing,
IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that the record herein shall be disclosed except for the following:
1.
The Afiidavit in Support of Search Warrant and the Amended Aflidavit in Support of Search Warrant be SEALED.
The Search Warrant, Amended Search Warrant and Receipt and Inventory be REDACTED.

this really does lay it out well for those who want an understanding:

Geofence Warrants and the Fourth Amendment

Introduction: If You Build It, They Will Come For months, Zachary McCoy tracked the distance of his bike rides around his neighborhood in Gainesville, Florida, using his RunKeeper app.See Jon Schuppe,

harvardlawreview.org

edited to delete extra bullet point and add 4 words

Thank you for that link!

I was just pointing out that they were also interested in times and dates (and wondering what they might be interested in relation to times). Also any communications with drivers and the cars they were driving in addition to whatever caused them to look at drivers in the first place.. I agree there is more behind it with relation to the drivers.

Maybe they found a driver that had previous history?
Some kind of tip about a particular driver?
Perhaps a driver owned an elantra?

MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

He was observed by LE placing his trash in his neighbor’s trash can. Also, inside his home he was seen organizing trash into separate zip loc baggies. I’m not sure if I would call these specific things “mistakes” or if I’d call it incriminating behavior.

This was discussed quite a bit in other threads, but until we know more, I don't think we can definitively call it either, especially the baggies as there can be a host of other reasons for that. MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Where did the police say "the house was a bloody mess"? What they did say is that it was a bloody crime scene.

You'll notice I didn't put quotes around "bloody mess." We can play semantics all day, but that would be off-topic, so I'll just leave this here and we can all interpret it how we wish. I don't believe "bloody mess" is inaccurate given this description from LE.

“The King Road residence contained a significant amount of blood from the victims including spatter and castoff (blood stain pattern resulting from blood drops released from object due to its motion) which, based on my training, makes it likely that this evidence was transferred to Kohberger’s person, clothing, or shoes.”

Cop on Idaho Murders Case Details Bloody Scene in Court Docs

Details redacted from the affidavit filed in Idaho were revealed in documents unsealed in Washington State.

www.insideedition.com

Given how few stabbings/murders Moscow has, it's not surprising that it would be very bloody (all four died of exsanguination, after all). However, I do believe this murderer took many steps to make sure that he, himself, was not very bloody - and I do not believe that this was some crazy bloody crime scene to the degree that it would make the record books (there was no dismemberment, for example). "Sloppy" means that the murderer made mistakes, left things behind (such as, well, a knife sheath). Obviously, he also left footprints - likely some visible ones. He also created blood transfer from the first room to the second room, even if wearing gloves.

Do you have a link to back up that he left footprints? I said in my post that I'm only going by what we know to be facts. If it's a fact that he left footprints, then I'll reconsider, but otherwise, I'm only considering the facts atm.

The roommates, upon awakening the next morning, do not see a "bloody mess" or they wouldn't have been questioning what was wrong with Xana and Ethan. By the time the killer walks past DM's room, there's so little blood on the sole of his shoe that the print is invisible, even with luminol (which was done early in the case). Without Amido black, that print would not have been found.

I didn't say the entire house was a bloody mess. Maybe I should have said "part of the house was a bloody mess" or "parts of rooms were a bloody mess." Perhaps the hallways weren't, but I really think you're overanalyzing what I meant by bloody mess. JMO. The part about the sole of his shoe is eactly my point. How is it possible to stab 4 people in 15 minutes, have it be described by police on the scene as very bloody, and have "so little blood on the sole of his shoe that the print is invisible"? Exactly my point.

All just MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

With all the mistakes made outside the house, how could he be so meticulous inside the house?
Factor in that it was done in such a small window of time and with at least one victim fighting back (if not more). I believe there will be more evidence inside the house that hasn't been included in the PCA.

MOO

Perhaps, but that's kind of my point. He wasn't nearly as sloppy, based on what we know right now, during the actual murders as some have speculated. It wasn't the perfect crime, by any means, but based on only the facts, we don't know how many mistakes he made inside. If it was as sloppy as some suggested, then I suspect there are a slew of errors inside as well, but that's not a fact yet. MOO.

 

[Nila Aella]

RSBM


the warrant requests:

• all information in your possession or control related to sales, deliveries, purchases, and/or transactions made to 1122 King Road, Moscow, Idaho 83 843 for flre period of January 1, 2022 to present, to include:date and time of sales;
• date and time ofdeliveries;
• purchases and/or transactions;
• name and identification of the drivers;
• a full description of the vehicles used;
• any and all communications between drivers and the purchasers;

Those are big asks that require probable cause because
“no intrusion at all is justified without a careful prior determination of necessity".

If you skip to this

III. PROBABLE CAUSE AND PARTICULARITY AT STEP TWO​

Geofence Warrants and the Fourth Amendment

Introduction: If You Build It, They Will Come For months, Zachary McCoy tracked the distance of his bike rides around his neighborhood in Gainesville, Florida, using his RunKeeper app.See Jon Schuppe,

harvardlawreview.org

you'll find nicely written descriptions that explain: defining what is searched, probable cause, and particularity.

Although it's Harvard Law Review, it's not stuffy, but is written in language for humans imo jmo

But imo jmo ime what we know from the 4th amendment of the constitution and a ton o'case law supporting it:

LE cannot get a warrant to demontrate what is 'normal', nor can they request personal communications between drivers and victims to show what is 'normal'.

This outlines in very clear layman's terms what is required for a warrant and there are links to each term for more detailed explanation:

search warrant

www.law.cornell.edu

The type of warrant requested by LE is not a geofence-type warrant (those are problematic for the reasons cited in the law review link). LE had to have probable cause to get this DD warrant. Probable cause requires specificity to time and location, and relation to crime. Relation to crime does not mean some general thing like being sure or ruling out or setting the normal bar.

The 4th amendment of the US Constitution requires that warrants be issued only “upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”49×49. U.S. CONST. amend. IV.

When LE signs the warrant, they are attesting that they believe probable cause exists AND that it exists for the reasons stated in the affidavit. (you can google the penalties for the affiant for lying or misrepresenting).
imo jmo ime and fact

https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/statutesrules/idstat/Title19/T19CH44.pdf

This warrant is supported by an affidavit that is sealed -- as are almost all of these -- and, therefore, not on this list here: Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest

Before a warrant can be issued, a judge must determine that a warrant application has sufficiently established probable cause. LE would need to prove that those records related to this crime.

The affidavit contains the evidence related to PC. We do not know what was in the affidavit,
but we do know that it contains more than a request for a warrant based on determining what was normal because normal isn't pc. imo jmo ime

This language is from this warrant:

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20DoorDash%20Inc.pdf

Therefore, the court finds it necessary to seal in part and redact the record related to the search warrant because the documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person. I.C.A.R. 32(i)(2)(A). After due consideration and with good cause appearing,
IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that the record herein shall be disclosed except for the following:
1.
The Afiidavit in Support of Search Warrant and the Amended Aflidavit in Support of Search Warrant be SEALED.
The Search Warrant, Amended Search Warrant and Receipt and Inventory be REDACTED.

this really does lay it out well for those who want an understanding:

Geofence Warrants and the Fourth Amendment

Introduction: If You Build It, They Will Come For months, Zachary McCoy tracked the distance of his bike rides around his neighborhood in Gainesville, Florida, using his RunKeeper app.See Jon Schuppe,

harvardlawreview.org

edited to delete extra bullet point and add 4 words and a link

Just reading more closely through your post. I completely missed the affidavit part (with exhibits) mentioned in the order to seal. Still reading......

MOO