4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[kittythehare]

The prosecution says in the Motion they want to protect the identities of all the family tree relatives.

Trying to find it but there are so many Motions.

2 Cents

Investigative Genetic Genealogy led law enforcement to identify Kohberger as a potential suspect, according to prosecutors. Agents took that route after they didn’t get a hit for the DNA found on a knife sheath in CODIS, a database of DNA profiles for felons.

“The State apparently only wants to prevent Mr. Kohberger from seeing how the IGG profile was created and how many other people the FBI chose to ignore during their investigation,” Weston Logsdon wrote.

Gist of it
But they also want the Grand Jury!

'Kohberger’s defense team also wants the state to turn over materials related to the grand jury prosecutors empaneled to indict him. They’ve said they plan to contest the indictment.

To date, the state and defense have failed to reach an agreement on which materials would be disclosed.

“The defense is not entitled to grand jury materials as a regular part of discovery. And really, this strikes me as a motion where they’re more trying to make a record than anything else,”

Bogen said.

Prosecutors to seek death penalty against Bryan Kohberger

The announcement comes days after Kohberger's defense filed a document saying no DNA belonging to the victims was found in his car, apartment or office.

lawandcrime.com

 

[Nila Aella]

If he is the perpetrator of this heinous crime may he be brought to justice.
However, those who advocate our civil liberties and right to privacy should be very wary about the methods and sequence of such methods the FBI deployed (local LE was just along for the ride).
As I mentioned a few months ago, if he is found guilty, absent to some fate befalling him while incarcerated, this case will likely wind-up dragging on for years, perhaps all the way to the SCOTUS. This has all the markings of becoming a test case.

100%. I have been thinking about this exact topic recently. I have heard a few people starting to express that they grasp the gravity of how some investigative techniques encroach on our civil liberties and privacy rights. This case has brought many of those concerns (surveillance, whisper stops, interagency requests for assistance, no video arrests, search warrants - some for 19 people at once, FGG, etc) to the forefront IMO. In addition, it is also shining a light on the Court and SM, ND orders, and the right to a fair trial.
JMO

If we are worried about his family tree (the preparation of which could be say described/shared) and it is given to the Defense (not protected), I assume it becomes public record. So what, now his entire family tree is hounded by the media forever. Is this the concern?

The Court can issue a protective order. Just like the Grand Jury proceedings, the public will not have access to the GJ proceedings.

People who opt in to LE having access to their profiles for investigative purposes need to be made fully aware of what they are opting into. One of the privacy issues I mentioned above. MOO

 

[SpiderFalcon]

The prosecution says in the Motion they want to protect the identities of all the family tree relatives.

Trying to find it but there are so many Motions.

2 Cents

From: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/061623 States Motion for Protective Order.pdf

 

[Chloegirl]

100%. I have been thinking about this exact topic recently. I have heard a few people starting to express that they grasp the gravity of how some investigative techniques encroach on our civil liberties and privacy rights. This case has brought many of those concerns (surveillance, whisper stops, interagency requests for assistance, no video arrests, search warrants - some for 19 people at once, FGG, etc) to the forefront IMO. In addition, it is also shining a light on the Court and SM, ND orders, and the right to a fair trial.
JMO

The Court can issue a protective order. Just like the Grand Jury proceedings, the public will not have access to the GJ proceedings.

People who opt in to LE having access to their profiles for investigative purposes need to be made fully aware of what they are opting into. One of the privacy issues I mentioned above. MOO

There is an extreme ethical issue related to the use of genealogic data, IMO. But the laws need to catch up quick, and civil liberties all of that is very valid. Sort of bothers me that they're chasing the death penalty because of that (there are a lot of things that could go sideways here and if he's done this I don't want him to have a tricky appeal process, with the entire nation and world watching). There's a fine line here and I really hope that some form of cooperation kicks in starting tomorrow. Of course, I delude myself often. JMOO

 

[SpiderFalcon]

100%. I have been thinking about this exact topic recently. I have heard a few people starting to express that they grasp the gravity of how some investigative techniques encroach on our civil liberties and privacy rights. This case has brought many of those concerns (surveillance, whisper stops, interagency requests for assistance, no video arrests, search warrants - some for 19 people at once, FGG, etc) to the forefront IMO. In addition, it is also shining a light on the Court and SM, ND orders, and the right to a fair trial.
JMO

The Court can issue a protective order. Just like the Grand Jury proceedings, the public will not have access to the GJ proceedings.

People who opt in to LE having access to their profiles for investigative purposes need to be made fully aware of what they are opting into. One of the privacy issues I mentioned above. MOO

From: Protect Your Information | Privacy and Security - GEDmatch

 

[Boxer]

Investigative Genetic Genealogy led law enforcement to identify Kohberger as a potential suspect, according to prosecutors. Agents took that route after they didn’t get a hit for the DNA found on a knife sheath in CODIS, a database of DNA profiles for felons.

“The State apparently only wants to prevent Mr. Kohberger from seeing how the IGG profile was created and how many other people the FBI chose to ignore during their investigation,” Weston Logsdon wrote.

Gist of it
But they also want the Grand Jury!

'Kohberger’s defense team also wants the state to turn over materials related to the grand jury prosecutors empaneled to indict him. They’ve said they plan to contest the indictment.

To date, the state and defense have failed to reach an agreement on which materials would be disclosed.

“The defense is not entitled to grand jury materials as a regular part of discovery. And really, this strikes me as a motion where they’re more trying to make a record than anything else,”

Bogen said.

Prosecutors to seek death penalty against Bryan Kohberger

The announcement comes days after Kohberger's defense filed a document saying no DNA belonging to the victims was found in his car, apartment or office.

lawandcrime.com

Agree. Kohberger will found guilty on the facts of the case. The defense is now building an appeal.
MOO that means as much motioning etc. as possible to increase chances of an error that could lead an overturn of the verdict.

 

[Sundog]

BK's Father as Poss. Witness in Sentencing Phase?

snipped for focus @Sundog Thx for you post w "Death Penalty Sentencing Instructions (ICJI 1700)."
I'm curious about the reason for the question in your post.
Have you read/heard something that suggests BK's Father would not be allowed to testify in sentencing phase?

Or that he could testify to a compellingly sympathetic bit of background re BK? Overcoming a personal obstacle, such as a usually-fatal illness/injury? Rescuing a family & puppy from a burning house? Or IDK-what.

Or are you thinking about def. team just wanting to put a relative on the stand to "humanize" him in a general way?

Or to appeal to jury members as parents, by explaining how they "tried to raise him right, had no clue that he could be violent," etc?

Just curious about your Q, if you have time to respond.

I was just thinking that BK's father would likely be a sympathetic witness, but he would have to testify about something that is a mitigating circumstance. Maybe about how BK has tried to overcome some mental health issues, or something of that nature. That there has never been a crime in his past, etc. Not sure what the father has to say about mitigating circumstances but if so, I think that he would be a compelling witness. His sincerity and love for his son would likely inspire compassion among some members of the jury. And I think that it would be something he would do for his son. JMO.

 

[Nova]

Agree. Kohberger will found guilty on the facts of the case. The defense is now building an appeal.
MOO that means as much motioning etc. as possible to increase chances of an error that could lead an overturn of the verdict.

With respect, I don't believe Defense motions "increase chances of an error".

What they do is protect the defendant's right to challenge whatever errors do occur. If the defense doesn't object--at least in some contexts--then the defendant has lost the right to challenge some or all of those errors.

As always, IANAL.

 

[Charlot123]

100%. I have been thinking about this exact topic recently. I have heard a few people starting to express that they grasp the gravity of how some investigative techniques encroach on our civil liberties and privacy rights. This case has brought many of those concerns (surveillance, whisper stops, interagency requests for assistance, no video arrests, search warrants - some for 19 people at once, FGG, etc) to the forefront IMO. In addition, it is also shining a light on the Court and SM, ND orders, and the right to a fair trial.
JMO

The Court can issue a protective order. Just like the Grand Jury proceedings, the public will not have access to the GJ proceedings.

People who opt in to LE having access to their profiles for investigative purposes need to be made fully aware of what they are opting into. One of the privacy issues I mentioned above. MOO

Nina but there is something to discuss.

If you extract the “DNA” part and substitute it with “fingerprint”. Imagine, in old time, there is a house with tons of fingerprints, and there is one, only one, found at a foreign object lying on the bed. Later it is found that the fingerprint matches BK’s one. There is nothing else linking BK with the house. Would one be able to make a strong case based on it? Would it be enough for conviction?

I am concerned that the house was so open and that the story I, the public, was presented is scanty. Could I convict based on the presence of the object with one fingerprint?

On the scale: 1) if the accusation is right, then MPD have apprehended a future SK. He is a danger to the society. He could be in LE.
2) if it is wrong, then an odd, not very social, man is apprehended. He is in jail, far from home. He is an ideal fall guy, but what if he is innocent?

If they exonerate a serial killer, it will be horrible. If they convict an innocent man, it is horrible.

I am concerned that such case is closed.

 

[Boxer]

Nina but there is something to discuss.

If you extract the “DNA” part and substitute it with “fingerprint”. Imagine, in old time, there is a house with tons of fingerprints, and there is one, only one, found at a foreign object lying on the bed. Later it is found that the fingerprint matches BK’s one. There is nothing else linking BK with the house. Would one be able to make a strong case based on it? Would it be enough for conviction?

I am concerned that the house was so open and that the story I, the public, was presented is scanty. Could I convict based on the presence of the object with one fingerprint?

On the scale: 1) if the accusation is right, then MPD have apprehended a future SK. He is a danger to the society. He could be in LE.
2) if it is wrong, then an odd, not very social, man is apprehended. He is in jail, far from home. He is an ideal fall guy, but what if he is innocent?

If they exonerate a serial killer, it will be horrible. If they convict an innocent man, it is horrible.

I am concerned that such case is closed.

The equivalent would be closer to one fingerprint found on the inside of the snap of the sheath of a knife designed for soldiers to kill with,found beneath a victim murdered with that kind of knife.

 

[kittythehare]

Agree. Kohberger will found guilty on the facts of the case. The defense is now building an appeal.
MOO that means as much motioning etc. as possible to increase chances of an error that could lead an overturn of the verdict.

Exactly.
Creating records.
Is all.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I'm not surprised the State is seeking the DP in this case, but it does help confirm my opinion that they have strong evidence BARD that BK is the murderer.

Seeking the DP is no light decision, and I don't think the State would seek it if they weren't confident of a conviction. Already we're talking about appeals. The percentage of actual appeals in a criminal matter being overturned is low, very low; less than 7% from 2011-2015. (I'm looking for more current years reporting)

<snipped> Just the Facts: U.S. Courts of Appeals

TABLE 2
U.S. COURTS OF APPEALS
PERCENTAGE REVERSED
CALENDAR YEARS 2011-2015

	Total	Criminal	Prisoner Petitions	U.S. Civil	Private Civil	Bankruptcy	Adminstrative Appeals
2011	8.7	6.5	7.6	7.0	12.4	10.1	8.2
2012	6.7	6.9	3.5	3.3	10.4	10.8	5.4
2013	6.8	5.8	3.2	2.6	11.8	10.8	7.5
2014	7.3	6.1	3.6	3.0	12.3	13.6	8.3
2015	8.6	6.9	4.6	4.2	14.2	24.4	7.8
Source: Table B-5, Statistical Tables for the Federal Judiciary, Dec. 31, 2011-2015

 

[girlhasnoname]

The article clearly states it didn't match CODIS. The FBI then paid a private company to build a genetic profile (whatever that really means). Once that was created they then were able to match vs. genealogy data which again the defense is going to want to know specifics of.
And THEN the FBI tipped local LE to looks at Bryan K. as a suspect.
Thus, the method and sequence of events becomes very important.

Not that it 'didn't match CODIS'' rather than BK's DNA was not in the CODIS database. That's not surprising, BK had no felony arrest record beforehand. Most of the law abiding, general population will not have their DNA in the CODIS system.

All of this is really a moot point when you consider BK's STR DNA comparison was found at the murder scene, partially underneath a murdered victim.

MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

Nina but there is something to discuss.

If you extract the “DNA” part and substitute it with “fingerprint”. Imagine, in old time, there is a house with tons of fingerprints, and there is one, only one, found at a foreign object lying on the bed. Later it is found that the fingerprint matches BK’s one. There is nothing else linking BK with the house. Would one be able to make a strong case based on it? Would it be enough for conviction?

I am concerned that the house was so open and that the story I, the public, was presented is scanty. Could I convict based on the presence of the object with one fingerprint?

On the scale: 1) if the accusation is right, then MPD have apprehended a future SK. He is a danger to the society. He could be in LE.
2) if it is wrong, then an odd, not very social, man is apprehended. He is in jail, far from home. He is an ideal fall guy, but what if he is innocent?

If they exonerate a serial killer, it will be horrible. If they convict an innocent man, it is horrible.

I am concerned that such case is closed.

I'm not sure I'm following what your saying.

Are you saying BK's DNA is the only thing linking him to the crime scene, thus this is not enough evidence?

His DNA wasn't just sitting on a door knob, it's on a sheath that held a knife and a knife killed the 4 victims and the DNA was found under a victim. This is bona fide strong evidence.

Then there is multiple pieces of evidence linking BK to King Rd right up to the house through several videos and phone data.

Nobody can explain BK's phone so people who think there is not enough evidence to convict BK refuse to talk about his phone. Why? Because there is no explanation for his phone pinging where it was pinging and being turned off when it was turned off.

Easy to say, "maybe it's not his car" but no one wants to touch the phone evidence with a ten foot pole.

Was someone else using his phone?


2 Cents

 

[girlhasnoname]

I'm not sure I'm following what your saying.

Are you saying BK's DNA is the only thing linking him to the crime scene, thus this is not enough evidence?

His DNA wasn't just sitting on a door knob, it's on a sheath that held a knife and a knife killed the 4 victims and the DNA was found under a victim. This is bona fide strong evidence.

Then there is multiple pieces of evidence linking BK to King Rd right up to the house through several videos and phone data.

Nobody can explain BK's phone so people who think there is not enough evidence to convict BK refuse to talk about his phone. Why? Because there is no explanation for his phone pinging where it was pinging and being turned off when it was turned off.

Easy to say, "maybe it's not his car" but no one wants to touch the phone evidence with a ten foot pole.

2 Cents

YES! Plus, I can't wait for the evidence LE has that we don't even know about yet. Must be pretty substantial IMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

YES! Plus, I can't wait for the evidence LE has that we don't even know about yet. Must be pretty substantial IMO.

Yup!

Footprint?

SM ties?

"Murder Kit" purchases?

Search history evidence?

 

[TL4S]

I'm not sure I'm following what your saying.

Are you saying BK's DNA is the only thing linking him to the crime scene, thus this is not enough evidence?

His DNA wasn't just sitting on a door knob, it's on a sheath that held a knife and a knife killed the 4 victims and the DNA was found under a victim. This is bona fide strong evidence.

Then there is multiple pieces of evidence linking BK to King Rd right up to the house through several videos and phone data.

Nobody can explain BK's phone so people who think there is not enough evidence to convict BK refuse to talk about his phone. Why? Because there is no explanation for his phone pinging where it was pinging and being turned off when it was turned off.

Easy to say, "maybe it's not his car" but no one wants to touch the phone evidence with a ten foot pole.

What? Was someone else using his phone?

2 Cents

Agree about the phone evidence. Per the warrants, LE requested cell data from within a half mile of the King road house, so it isn't just like his phone was within the entire cell tower's range, in any direction, 12 random visits to Moscow. He was within a half mile (using sectors and distances, they can narrow it down a lot).

Then SG mentioned that BK's phone had been close enough to "touch" their wifi/bluetooth. IMO, that's enough to toss out any suggestions that he was just going shopping or whatever. He was right there, 12 times, mostly late night or early morning hours, at the same house where his DNA was later found on something directly associated with the murder weapon, under a victim's body. The evidence is starting to stack (I stole that line from the Kegan Kline interview).

 

[girlhasnoname]

Number 5 from the Notice Pursuant to Idaho Code 18-4004A is particularly of interest to me:

5. Idaho Code §l9-2515(9)(i) — the defendant, by his conduct, whether such conduct was before, during or after the commission of the murder at hand, has exhibited a propensity to commit murder which will probably constitute a continuing threat to society.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/062623 Notice Pursuant to Idaho Code 18-4004A.pdf

 

[Cool Cats]

Agree about the phone evidence. Per the warrants, LE requested cell data from within a half mile of the King road house, so it isn't just like his phone was within the entire cell tower's range, in any direction, 12 random visits to Moscow. He was within a half mile (using sectors and distances, they can narrow it down a lot).

Then SG mentioned that BK's phone had been close enough to "touch" their wifi/bluetooth. IMO, that's enough to toss out any suggestions that he was just going shopping or whatever. He was right there, 12 times, mostly late night or early morning hours, at the same house where his DNA was later found on something directly associated with the murder weapon, under a victim's body. The evidence is starting to stack (I stole that line from the Kegan Kline interview).

Half mile vicinity and possibly touched the wifi...WOW
Kaylee's dad mentioned the WiFi I remember.

Also, it was before and after midnight (11 times) that his phone pinged a half mile from the house. The police stop in Moscow was at 11:40pm.

But nope, BK was just out messing around going from business to business, all these businesses open at midnight according to many.

So what businesses did he go to at 4:00 am that night? He was just out goofing around so he must have good reasons.

Wait, still no alibi?

 

[Nila Aella]

Nina but there is something to discuss.

If you extract the “DNA” part and substitute it with “fingerprint”. Imagine, in old time, there is a house with tons of fingerprints, and there is one, only one, found at a foreign object lying on the bed. Later it is found that the fingerprint matches BK’s one. There is nothing else linking BK with the house. Would one be able to make a strong case based on it? Would it be enough for conviction?

Snipped to focus
Just one fingerprint, not enough IMO. When was that fingerprint put on that object? When was the object placed in the house? Imagine if there were proof the suspect was nowhere near the area of the crime?

There is usually more than just one piece of evidence. Like in this case, building a case with corroborating evidence is key.
MOO

On the scale: 1) if the accusation is right, then MPD have apprehended a future SK. He is a danger to the society. He could be in LE.
2) if it is wrong, then an odd, not very social, man is apprehended. He is in jail, far from home. He is an ideal fall guy, but what if he is innocent?

If they exonerate a serial killer, it will be horrible. If they convict an innocent man, it is horrible.

Snipped to focus

100%
The stakes are high. I am confident the jury will carefully weigh each piece of evidence and the totality of the evidence. MOO

I am concerned that such case is closed.

Snipped for focus

We don't have the totality of the evidence yet.
Right now there is much more available from the Prosecution side (definitely not everything) and we are just starting to get a glimpse of the Defense side (very little). I expect there is a lot more to come from both sides.

I agree with @Chloegirl about the need for clarity.
IMO That clarity will come at trial.

Generally, at least in my experience, the truth is somewhere between the two sides. Sometimes way over to the side of the prosecution, sometimes in the middle, sometimes favoring the defense. I have served on a jury twice. Once, the evidence landed in a difficult point of the scale - in that case there was a lesser charge. The other case, the weight of the evidence was clearly on the prosecution side.

JMO