4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #86

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Not for me but that's just MOO. I think while a knife is silent and a gun is not, that did not factor into his decision. I think the knife was the weapon of choice because it's what he needed to satisfy his impulse and urges. I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist so this all jmo but I also think that particular knife somehow had special meaning to him. Maybe bc he wanted to be in the military or LE? Don't know it's just a hunch. We also don't know if 1 or 2 knives were actually used. This is also a possibility. It's very conceivable to me that a perp would not go into a planned attack without having a backup in case something happened to his first weapon. But as far as we know, LE only put out a plea for assistance on one knife. The Ka Bar style knife.

jmo

Various ideas arise from this:

- perp has far better knife skills than gunmanship, maybe even never having handled guns
- knife is way more 'intimate'
- knife has very obvious connotation to penetration
- knife is silent in a high density neighbourhood
- perp could have been trying to set up one person in particular
- perp could have been trying to imply it was someone from a whole type of peoples (ie military, hunters)
- had the sheath not be left behind, what was the intention for it? To set someone up by putting DNA?
- perp had started to view the victims as blood sport game for hunting / killing with bare hands
- perp felt using knife over gun represented more of a 'fair' fight
- perp wanted to see victim(s) up close and personal, grab them first not point a gun have them hide

Main thing strikes me is that he fully intended to live and walk away from this scene. Unlike other killers who have already factored in that they will take their own life at some point regardless.

Also, had he been interrupted / captured at the scene, he put himself at huge risk of being overpowered and disarmed then harmed either by housemates or by police - a very undignified and out of control situation.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Initially I did not see a difference between the two approaches except that the States approach seems safer for the Speedy Trial aspect of the case. After reading the filings again, I think there are multiple issues (GJ/Constitutional/speedy trial) and the Judge is having to weigh them against each other. JMO AND IANAL

IMO the State did wait a while before going to the GJ (for whatever reason) so I do believe the D has a valid issue there.

Curious how often Judges reconsider and adjust their Orders?

I think the state has legitimate concerns that the judge by taking it upon himself to extend time for trial beyond the speedy trial deadline without Kohberger waiving it (as is required by statute), and in fact with Kohberger emphatically stating on the record "I'm not waiving it", is running the risk of this case being dismissed, jeopardizing it for all - except of course, BK who could get a major windfall/reprieve.

I have the opposite view about the state taking this to the GJ. MOO, BK has zero say in whether he's charged by criminal information/complaint or GJ indictment. That is solely the choice of the prosecution.

JMO, the state didn't indict him at the outset because it was a matter of exigency. They had to get him into custody in PA and off the street. When he was extradited to ID, I don't think they had any intention of bringing this to a GJ then either.

It was only after discovery started and they could see (in MOO) by her motion filings and discovery requests, the delay tactics she was employing. Including stuff she was not entitled to get under Idaho criminal rules such as the addresses and telephone #s of DM and BF. For every piece of paper she files (and there have been countless) the state must respond - even if frivolous. The man hours alone. Not to mention the support staff. This price tag has got to be insane by now. I can't even imagine. It was only after this going on for months that they decided to eventually convene a GJ and get the ball moving. I was watching this all unfold and I was hoping that they were going to put an end to it and convene a GJ to indict and call it a day. I was very pleased when they did. I'm not saying this as fact. This is only my take based on what I witnessed and read in the docket.

As always, all is jmo

 

[mickey2942]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/25/us/idaho-student-killings-kohberger-alibi/index.html

Yeah. Good luck.

 

[Jurisprudence]

My speculation is that Kohberger had a long and fairly intricate checklist of things he needed to do (in his mind) to avoid detection.

He was caught up in doing whatever he had planned to prevent blood evidence transferring to his car (and his person).

Another of his rubrics was to get out of there and speed away. He obviously had thought about (but likely not visited) possible places to dispose of evidence. So he was thinking about that, too.

My speculation is that he realized the sheath was missing when he was filling up his duffle or whatever bag he had chosen for evidence disposal. I don't think it could have been a trash bag because it simply wouldn't work as well as something with a zipper. Also, he would have noticed at that point that he was putting an unsheathed knife into a mere trash bag.

OTOH, he could have wrapped the knife up in something, temporarily. He must surely have wanted to speed out of there rather than return to look for the sheath (his risk of more blood contamination would have increased, had he gone back in at that point).

The question I have is whether his return trip to Moscow the next morning was an attempt to recover the sheath. Probably not, but I guess it's a possibility. He must have been rather anxious at that point (kicking himself for forgetting it). Maybe the neighbor was slightly mistaken on the exact time when she observed the open door on the first floor.

He would have revisited the crime scene rooms, if he did that. He might even have closed and locked Xana's door. But he surely knew that he took the knife out of the sheath on the third floor - but it was under MM's body and what a risk it would have been to touch or move her (having already disposed of his kill gear and probably not wanting to look like a crazy murderer in broad daylight).

Speculation. Trying to pull a few clues together in some way that makes sense to me.

I love this post on so many levels. I too think he was in a "mode" and he wasn't going to let anything interrupt it. For example, to add some further speculation only, I think he fully intended to commit these crimes between 3 and 4 and I suspect that he had some kind of compulsion that it had to be done on that date. Whatever obstacles he faced, didn't matter. He was mentally prepared and it had to get done that night.

The pca tells us he left his apt at 2:45 for the 10-15 minute trip. I don't think he expected to see all the lights on. I don't think he intended to have to drive around in circles waiting to see those lights go off. I don't think he expected a door dash delivery. I don't think he expected kids to get a drinking ticket at band field w LE on the scene. There were so many signs imo that were screaming to him "This is not the night. Turn around and go home." And, yet he couldn't do that.

I agree with you that he didn't go back that morning bc he realized he lost the sheath. Instead it is my thought that he couldn't understand why it wasn't on the news. Why was there no mention of this? I think he went back to the scene to see if any LE was there and of course, they were not there yet (unless they were and they are hiding that detail from us). For that he must have been completely baffled. Especially if he thought DM saw him.

All jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

I.C. 19-3501

The clock starts with that first court appearance, doesn't it? And the GJ was completed before the PH was even set to begin. The PH was set at a reasonable time - but the GJ made it even speedier.

Or am I missing something? I too am curious about the Judge's balancing of the various time elements here.

I think the clock starts ticking from arraignment, from when he enters a plea. And he already delayed that by more than 6 months, not entering a plea until he was forced to by law in June. (I think his initial appearance was around 1/5 or 1/7 or something). This is why trial is set for October 2nd. Because after this, that mark gets into the holidays. And, this is why the Judge's order changing his "speedy trial" with him emphatic that he's not waiving it (even though he, well AT, is requesting it) can be a danger.

If he doesn't waive it and he does not go to trial on or before that 6 month mark, he has grounds to get the action dismissed. And, arguably, the judge just told him by his order that he doesn't have to go to trial for more than a month after that date. Baffling. I definitely see the State's concern. MOO I.C. 19-3501

 

[Emilie D]

I love this post on so many levels. I too think he was in a "mode" and he wasn't going to let anything interrupt it. For example, to add some further speculation only, I think he fully intended to commit these crimes between 3 and 4 and I suspect that he had some kind of compulsion that it had to be done on that date. Whatever obstacles he faced, didn't matter. He was mentally prepared and it had to get done that night.

The pca tells us he left his apt at 2:45 for the 10-15 minute trip. I don't think he expected to see all the lights on. I don't think he intended to have to drive around in circles waiting to see those lights go off. I don't think he expected a door dash delivery. I don't think he expected kids to get a drinking ticket at band field. There were so many signs imo that were screaming to him "This is not the night. Turn around and go home." And, yet he couldn't do that.

I agree with you that he didn't go back that morning bc he realized he lost the sheath. Instead it is my thought that he couldn't understand why it wasn't on the news. Why was there no mention of this? I think he went back to the scene to see if any LE was there and of course, they were not there yet (unless they were and they are hiding that detail from us). For that he must have been completely baffled. Especially if he thought DM saw him.

All jmo

I can definitely see him returning to see why his work wasn’t on the news. I think he believed they would be found way sooner than they were. He probably did think that DM would check on the others after seeing him and alert the cops. That truly fits why he returned the next morning.

 

[Jurisprudence]

I can definitely see him returning to see why his work wasn’t on the news. I think he believed they would be found way sooner than they were. He probably did think that DM would check on the others after seeing him and alert the cops. That truly fits why he returned the next morning.

Exactly. He was on a rush. A complete adrenaline high and there's no news about this? Are you kidding me? Boom, get in the car and go see what's going on.

jmo

 

[jepop]

I.C. 19-3501

I think the clock starts ticking from arraignment, from when he enters a plea. And he already delayed that by more than 6 months, not entering a plea until he was forced to by law in June. (I think his initial appearance was around 1/5 or 1/7 or something). This is why trial is set for October 2nd. Because after this, that mark gets into the holidays. And, this is why the Judge's order changing his "speedy trial" with him emphatic that he's not waiving it (even though he, well AT, is requesting it) can be a danger.

If he doesn't waive it and he does not go to trial on or before that 6 month mark, he has grounds to get the action dismissed. And, arguably, the judge just told him by his order that he doesn't have to go to trial for more than a month after that date. Baffling. I definitely see the State's concern. MOO I.C. 19-3501

I had a look at the calendar starting from May 22nd when BK was arraigned. I figure Nov 6th is six months. At the moment Bk's trial is set for beginning on October 2nd. If 37 days is added you get a trial date begining on November 8th. I can see why the State doesn't want to risk it. I would guess that the good cause clause would definately be invoked if this ever became necessary but I can see why the state wants to do this by the book. As it stands now, if the defense decide to take those 37 days, by my calculations BK's trial would be scheduled to commence two days after the expiration of the speedy trial limit. Moo

EBM changed date to correct one.

 

[schooling]

My speculation is that Kohberger had a long and fairly intricate checklist of things he needed to do (in his mind) to avoid detection.

He was caught up in doing whatever he had planned to prevent blood evidence transferring to his car (and his person).

Another of his rubrics was to get out of there and speed away. He obviously had thought about (but likely not visited) possible places to dispose of evidence. So he was thinking about that, too.

My speculation is that he realized the sheath was missing when he was filling up his duffle or whatever bag he had chosen for evidence disposal. I don't think it could have been a trash bag because it simply wouldn't work as well as something with a zipper. Also, he would have noticed at that point that he was putting an unsheathed knife into a mere trash bag.

OTOH, he could have wrapped the knife up in something, temporarily. He must surely have wanted to speed out of there rather than return to look for the sheath (his risk of more blood contamination would have increased, had he gone back in at that point).

The question I have is whether his return trip to Moscow the next morning was an attempt to recover the sheath. Probably not, but I guess it's a possibility. He must have been rather anxious at that point (kicking himself for forgetting it). Maybe the neighbor was slightly mistaken on the exact time when she observed the open door on the first floor.

He would have revisited the crime scene rooms, if he did that. He might even have closed and locked Xana's door. But he surely knew that he took the knife out of the sheath on the third floor - but it was under MM's body and what a risk it would have been to touch or move her (having already disposed of his kill gear and probably not wanting to look like a crazy murderer in broad daylight).

Speculation. Trying to pull a few clues together in some way that makes sense to me.

Totally agree the heavy focus on transfer prevention and 99% of what you said with a slight variation.

I suspect that he wasn't totally done planning and decided in only a few hours to go on that specific night. I've always wondered if it was all of the things coming to a head (academically) that got him to snap...or if he noticed Kaylee was back in town and could leave the following day (Sunday) never to return to Moscow again.

To me, that's the only thing (besides his likely overconfidence in his knowledge of technology) that explains the mix of sloppy and well prepared .

Edit: I do suspect the lucky timing of the license plate also played into the math he was doing in his head re:timing. if we were to learn that BK planned to commit the murders closer to the winter break though I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[schooling]

I can definitely see him returning to see why his work wasn’t on the news. I think he believed they would be found way sooner than they were. He probably did think that DM would check on the others after seeing him and alert the cops. That truly fits why he returned the next morning.

Totally agree with this. I don't doubt that he may have thought for a second or two about going to find his sheath once he found the exterior just the way he left it.

But I don't think it was the reason for his trip (you nailed it with the news things) there and I doubt he exited his car.

 

[schooling]

Of course they'll try to use that. But it still begs the question of WHO set Kohberger up, WHO drove his car, WHO used his phone - in order to frame him. Let's say that person was an Evil Scientist who knew how to keep their own DNA off the sheath.

In this study, btw, they shook hands for two minutes and I'm guessing that it was a firm handshake. In these days of awareness about diseases, I find it really hard to believe that anyone (at any time) would shake hands for two minutes with someone. I need a different method than a handshake for those stats to work (and they did the transfer immediately after the handshake - which is pretty problematic for me).

This unknown person had to get DNA from Kohberger. If one shakes hands with someone, it's a huge risk to then try and set someone up by using your hand to touch the use point of a sheath. The study you cite is about direct analysis of hand-shaking. It doesn't at all mention how I might shake hands with you and then place your DNA on my knife sheath. The study looked at DNA transfer immediately after handshaking in an experimental situation. In a regular handshake, the real culprit's DNA would be higher than 20%. There are other, more realistic studies. For example, if I give my laptop to my husband right now and he types on it, he will get some transfer DNA from me. Not as much as with a handshake, but I use my keyboard a lot - if he typed a lot on my keyboard, he'd have a goodly amount. Then, he would need to immediately transfer it to another object. This happens all the time within a household - it doesn't happen in world where 2 minute handshakes are really not a thing.

In real life, you'd have to shake hands (for 2 minutes) with Kohberger, not touch anyone else, and rapidly go to the sheath and touch the snap (with at least a 20% risk of leaving your own DNA - this study is not the only study; the rate of transfer of your own DNA in this situation could be as high as 80%, depending on many variables - one of which is time). If the handshake was more normal (15-20 seconds), it would a much higher ratio of the other person's DNA. I have to say that if someone shook my hand for 2 minutes, I would never forget that (and wouldn't allow it, of course).

So, someone touched Kohberger. Got some of his DNA on them (hands work better, so let's say it was a handshake). Then they ran to the knife sheath and transferred the DNA. Then, later, they decide to take his car and phone and murder 4 college students.

That's the most elaborate (and risky) set-up I've ever heard of. Kohberger didn't even know that many people in the area. If the DNA had come from saliva (say, a kiss) that would be known.

I find it really hard to consider that everyone who ever touched Kohberger could be considered a suspect - by anyone. But the most likely person would be someone within his household, frankly.

People are consistently confusing secondary transfer dna with touch dna. And I suspect it's because you can't talk about secondary transfer without using the word 'touch'. Talking heads in the media aren't helping.

would i be correct in assuming all secondary transfer dna is technically touch (body part, clothing, item etc) but not all touch dna is secondary transfer?

 

[Boxer]

Totally agree the heavy focus on transfer prevention and 99% of what you said with a slight variation.

I suspect that he wasn't totally done planning and decided in only a few hours to go on that specific night. I've always wondered if it was all of the things coming to a head (academically) that got him to snap...or if he noticed Kaylee was back in town and could leave the following day (Sunday) never to return to Moscow again.

To me, that's the only thing (besides his likely overconfidence in his knowledge of technology) that explains the mix of sloppy and well prepared .

Edit: I do suspect the lucky timing of the license plate also played into the math he was doing in his head re:timing. if we were to learn that BK planned to commit the murders closer to the winter break though I wouldn't be surprised.

Agree. Also re: plates. Maybe used a product that makes plates unreadable by cameras.
They should try to hunt down that old PA plate.

 

[al66pine]

Families of Murder Victims. Having "the Final Say?"
Idaho transplant said:
".... I hope that whatever the outcome, it gives whatever comfort possible to the families of the victims. It is my believe that they, and only they, should have the final say" (sbm)

About what? Guilt or innocence? Penalty? ....
What if they don't agree?
....Or by "final say" do you mean the victims' families should get to over-ride the jury? ....the families apparently do not agree. That would be the case in any mass murder. Not everyone is for the death penalty. So should one family's objection over ride a death penalty, if the jury gives it? IMO.

@Idaho transplant Interesting idea.
@10ofRods Yes, extreeemely possible that families of victims in MASS KILLING may have differing opinions about a def't's guilt & about appropriate sentencing.
Ditto for SERIAL KILLER, being tried in one trial for multiple victims.

But even w a SINGLE DEATH, family members may hold vastly different beliefs, esp'ly re sentencing and death penalty. Sometimes they express those opinions in MSM interviews but not in victims impact stmts at trial.
imo, FWIW..

 

[TL4S]

Agree. Also re: plates. Maybe used a product that makes plates unreadable by cameras.
They should try to hunt down that old PA plate.

Do we know, per the documents, if SV1 even had a rear plate? Was it specified that it had no front plate, only a rear plate, or did it only say that it appeared to have no front plate?

I mean, clearly he didn't have easy access to a different vehicle, but he could have simply removed his back plate if he was worried about it being seen by cameras. It would possibly make him more likely to being pulled over for not having a plate, but so would having an obstructed plate, imo (been there done that).

Phone off, no readable plates, basic car, dark windows and wearing black at 3 or 4am... that's about as invisible as he could make himself. It was his incessant circling that was his undoing. Jmo.

 

[girlhasnoname]

From the same article, written by the person who did that experiment:

"How significant is the result of a single study? Other analyses have shown that DNA transfer can be unpredictable and can depend on environmental conditions. We need more research on when and how secondary transfer can occur."

I'm not putting too much stock in an article written in 2015, almost 10 years old. DNA technology changes constantly and continuously and so does the skill set of the scientists and technicians who collect and analyze that data.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Initially I did not see a difference between the two approaches except that the States approach seems safer for the Speedy Trial aspect of the case. After reading the filings again, I think there are multiple issues (GJ/Constitutional/speedy trial) and the Judge is having to weigh them against each other. JMO AND IANAL

IMO the State did wait a while before going to the GJ (for whatever reason) so I do believe the D has a valid issue there.

Curious how often Judges reconsider and adjust their Orders?

In Idaho (and other states) felony charges can be brought by a Grand Jury. It's up to the Prosecution to decide whether to go the route of PH or GJ. They don't have to explain or get the Defense's approval.

I think much more evidence on BK came in after the initial PCA and that's what triggered the GJ.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Various ideas arise from this:

- perp has far better knife skills than gunmanship, maybe even never having handled guns
- knife is way more 'intimate'
- knife has very obvious connotation to penetration
- knife is silent in a high density neighbourhood
- perp could have been trying to set up one person in particular
- perp could have been trying to imply it was someone from a whole type of peoples (ie military, hunters)
- had the sheath not be left behind, what was the intention for it? To set someone up by putting DNA?
- perp had started to view the victims as blood sport game for hunting / killing with bare hands
- perp felt using knife over gun represented more of a 'fair' fight
- perp wanted to see victim(s) up close and personal, grab them first not point a gun have them hide

Main thing strikes me is that he fully intended to live and walk away from this scene. Unlike other killers who have already factored in that they will take their own life at some point regardless.

Also, had he been interrupted / captured at the scene, he put himself at huge risk of being overpowered and disarmed then harmed either by housemates or by police - a very undignified and out of control situation.

BK has advanced upper arm strength from boxing and he is athletically built due to that and running. I believe he had practiced and planned on using that knife all along.

Think about it, if he had started shooting a gun at approx 4 am on an upper floor of a 3 floor structure, kids now are taught to react due to all of the mass shootings. The other roommates on floors 2 and 1 would have become instantly aware and someone would have dialed 911 right away, either them or neighbors who are packed closely together in that area.

I agree, he planned on sneaking in and out quietly without even much of a struggle from the victims.

MOO

 

[Idaho transplant]

Families of Murder Victims. Having "the Final Say?"
Idaho transplant said:
".... I hope that whatever the outcome, it gives whatever comfort possible to the families of the victims. It is my believe that they, and only they, should have the final say" (sbm)


@Idaho transplant Interesting idea.
@10ofRods Yes, extreeemely possible that families of victims in MASS KILLING may have differing opinions about a def't's guilt & about appropriate sentencing.
Ditto for SERIAL KILLER, being tried in one trial for multiple victims.

But even w a SINGLE DEATH, family members may hold vastly different beliefs, esp'ly re sentencing and death penalty. Sometimes they express those opinions in MSM interviews but not in victims impact stmts at trial.
imo, FWIW..

I was only referencing this case, not murder cases in general. All of the families have been interviewed. The Chapin family's views are unknown. Xana's mother chose LWOP, her father opted for the death penalty, as did the Goncalves and Maddie's family. If he is convicted, the families' majority opinion, the death penalty, should prevail. It is they, not society, who lost the ultimate. I would hope that the prosecution honors their choice. So far, they have.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I can definitely see him returning to see why his work wasn’t on the news. I think he believed they would be found way sooner than they were. He probably did think that DM would check on the others after seeing him and alert the cops. That truly fits why he returned the next morning.

Or he truly didn't see DM and believed he had just left a very quiet house behind him with no form of remaining life bar the dog.

We have never been made clear on what time the friends and neighbours came to the house that next day but it's possible he saw movement or activity in the house somewhere that showed people inside. Otherwise maybe he would have been bold enough to go search / fetch the sheath. Obviously that would be a ludicrous messy and risky business if so and would have been an unlikely 'successful' prospect.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

BK has advanced upper arm strength from boxing and he is athletically built due to that and running. I believe he had practiced and planned on using that knife all along.

Think about it, if he had started shooting a gun at approx 4 am on an upper floor of a 3 floor structure, kids now are taught to react due to all of the mass shootings. The other roommates on floors 2 and 1 would have become instantly aware and someone would have dialed 911 right away, either them or neighbors who are packed closely together in that area.

I agree, he planned on sneaking in and out quietly without even much of a struggle from the victims.

MOO

I agree and sadly for a little while at the beginning of this case, I had put my attention to an innocent person in all this simply because they were a sports professional with outstanding upper body strength and stamina.

My father was military trained and he always brought me and the siblings up 'never use a weapon unless you're sure you won't be disarmed and it will be used on you'. I guess it's a basic thing, I wouldn't know. But someone like BK, if he's not experienced with guns and confident handling one, would know all too well it only takes one false move and that gun is misdirected or even knocked from your hand then your enemy has the deadly weapon.

I wonder if he even had the knife strapped on to his hand somehow so it literally couldn't just fall or drop.