4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #87

[Justice101]

Oh - that's true! This person would have to have a parent whose Y chromosome is identical to Mr. K! So, two clones of Mr and Mrs K give birth to a second BK somewhere on the planet.

The odds must be something like 70 trillion to the third power. Impossible odds. More likely that we're all descendants of aliens.

IMO.

Your point is a great point.

70 trillion is close to the total number of possible chess games. (Sorry for my geekiness)

 

[Boxer]

The odds of the DNA are 5 Octillion to one, IIRC.
I think I worked that correctly to 5 protons compared to 2kg.

 

[Balthazar]

Thank you for the clarification and that's fair.

So, how would this civilian lab in another state have BK's DNA on hand in order to have a mixup?

There are so many possibilities, it is literally mind boggling.

I think by now, everyone in the whole world knows that sometimes mistakes are made in labs. Some labs are really good and really accurate. Other labs are known for being sloppy. Some labs are even known for being unethical and doing things wrong on purpose.

This happened in Texas: US uproar at sloppy DNA tests blunders

These problems have continued for many years Crime Lab Problems Continue In Texas, Elsewhere | Prison Legal News

The problems continue to this year: Austin PD’s Bad DNA Analysis Nearly Cost This Man His Life

Lab workers who did stuff wrong were fired, but they would have gone on to work at other labs - civilian labs in Texas most likely.

I believe this is why Anne Taylor wants to know what lab was involved and what methodology was used. And I think it is a reasonable question to ask because the defendants life is on the line. I would not want to see this line of questioning go unanswered BEFORE the trial as it could so easily lead to an appeal should he be convicted.

I wish the DNA had been sent for testing to a lab in literally ANY other state BUT Texas.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I guess this is a good time to mention that Kohberger has now given a buccal swab and if THAT doesn't match the profile on the sheath (which it obviously does or AT would have filed a motion), then the State has a real problem.

Also, it's unlikely any actual DNA was sent to Othram (although they do provide lab services - the lab services here were provided by ISL, pursuant to Idaho law). Once the DNA sample is run, it becomes a digital file.

Genetic genealogy is done by comparing digital files, not actual samples. No one goes and takes saliva or blood from Othram participants who sign up for the genealogy service (although Othram is happy to provide that service), the vast majority have their data files from Ancestry or 23 or they have another private service to give them the raw data.

IMO.

And I believe the buccal swab matched 5 octillion times more likely to BK than any other person. MOO

 

[Justice101]

The odds of the DNA are 5 Octillion to one, IIRC.
I think I worked that correctly to 5 protons compared to 2kg.

How about comparing to the number of atoms in the universe? 10^68?

Don't answer that.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

I should have said according to Anne Taylor. There is the DNA on the sheath, and 3 unknown male DNA profiles. She doesn't mention any other BK DNA found at 1122 King Rd. so, unless and until she or some other officer of the court says there is other BK DNA there, we have to assume it doesn't exist.

RBBM & RSBM

I disagree: there’s a gag order in place. Assuming silence means anything other than compliance with the gag order is a reach, MOO.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I guess this is a good time to mention that Kohberger has now given a buccal swab and if THAT doesn't match the profile on the sheath (which it obviously does or AT would have filed a motion), then the State has a real problem.

Also, it's unlikely any actual DNA was sent to Othram (although they do provide lab services - the lab services here were provided by ISL, pursuant to Idaho law). Once the DNA sample is run, it becomes a digital file.

Genetic genealogy is done by comparing digital files, not actual samples. No one goes and takes saliva or blood from Othram participants who sign up for the genealogy service (although Othram is happy to provide that service), the vast majority have their data files from Ancestry or 23 or they have another private service to give them the raw data.

IMO.

If IGG is done by comparing digital files not actual samples why is the prosecution expressly seeking to block the defense access to chain of custody records related to IGG? The prosecutor saying they won't hand over chain of records to defense seems the least defensible as presumably those chain of custody records would relate to the evidence you also want introduced in court, namely the sheath DNA.

Specifically, the State seeks to protect the following information:

The raw data related to the SNP profile and the underlying laboratory documentation related to the development of the profile, such as chain of custody forms, laboratory standard operating procedures, analyst notes, etc.

 

[schooling]

There are so many possibilities, it is literally mind boggling.

I think by now, everyone in the whole world knows that sometimes mistakes are made in labs. Some labs are really good and really accurate. Other labs are known for being sloppy. Some labs are even known for being unethical and doing things wrong on purpose.

This happened in Texas: US uproar at sloppy DNA tests blunders

These problems have continued for many years Crime Lab Problems Continue In Texas, Elsewhere | Prison Legal News

The problems continue to this year: Austin PD’s Bad DNA Analysis Nearly Cost This Man His Life

Lab workers who did stuff wrong were fired, but they would have gone on to work at other labs - civilian labs in Texas most likely.

I believe this is why Anne Taylor wants to know what lab was involved and what methodology was used. And I think it is a reasonable question to ask because the defendants life is on the line. I would not want to see this line of questioning go unanswered BEFORE the trial as it could so easily lead to an appeal should he be convicted.

I wish the DNA had been sent for testing to a lab in literally ANY other state BUT Texas.

I went through each of the articles you listed above. Looked up the relevant cases as most of the articles were slim on info (the first one doesn't even mention what the issue with the DNA was).

Each of those cases involved comparing an unknown sample with a known suspect sample, in the same lab. And improper methodology caused a mixup that led to wrongful convictions based on said evidence.

Methodology doesn't accidentally produce a complete male profile in the 5 octallion range out of thin air And since neither the prosecution nor defense has presented any evidence that Kohlberger's DNA was known prior to it being pulled from his cheek after his arrest. Let alone in the same lab where the 1122 suspect blood was being analyzed for DNA....none of the cases you cited are relevant. IMO

This seems like an exercise in futility. IMO the defense knows this. Hence their filings being mostly focused on how LE moved through the family tree to arrive at BK's name. They likely know the chain of custody of the sheath. There's nothing there.

I will concede to the point that he has every right under the law to make these challenges, especially considering that he's facing the death penalty.

 

[schooling]

If IGG is done by comparing digital files not actual samples why is the prosecution expressly seeking to block the defense access to chain of custody records related to IGG? The prosecutor saying they won't hand over chain of records to defense seems the least defensible as presumably those chain of custody records would relate to the evidence you also want introduced in court, namely the sheath DNA.

Specifically, the State seeks to protect the following information:

The raw data related to the SNP profile and the underlying laboratory documentation related to the development of the profile, such as chain of custody forms, laboratory standard operating procedures, analyst notes, etc.

Because it creates unnecessary overhead and sets a bad precedent (in their eyes) for law enforcement all across the country. I read an article that the FBI has advised local LE, through their assistance and training, to only EVER refer to genetic genealogy as a lead. And discouraged them from showing their work.

They want to avoid regulation. They want to avoid scrutiny. They want to refrain from providing fuel to court cases. They want to avoid opening doors that may result in challenges to long closed cases. In their eyes the means justifies the end because the end is a 1:1 DNA match between a known suspect sample and a previously unknown sample.

This is a super power, an investigative tool that's cracked hundreds of stone cold dead cases. It's a law enforcement game changer and law enforcement wants to keep it to themselves.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything I wrote. I'm merely pointing out why prosecutors are playing keep away.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Glad accommodations are being made:
Order Regarding Notice of Hearing (Redacted)

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I'm not a psychologist/behavioralist/expert, nada.

Perfect storms like this are happening everyday all around the world. For most of us it's a good cry and too much ice cream. We know some self harm. Others may act out in violent ways. But a quadruple murder?

And many have it way worse than BK. He grew up in a middle class home, supported, access to school and services and health, he had it relatively good.

I'd imagine that you'd have to be a sociopath (is it a gradient?) to even be triggered to get to this point. The posts about VSS support that. He clearly says he has no feelings for anyone including his close family members.

I can't even look at a fly that's lost it's wing because it breaks my heart, have never lifted my hand to anyone my entire life, and most certainly have never described humans like BK did in those posts. And I've been down.

BK's behavior seems like it's extremely rare.

MOO

I agree the perfect storm to trigger a Narc / Sociopath rage fest.

I've witnessed Cluster Bs on the rampage and I would say that one thing they don't have is a good comprehension of cause and effect or 'consequences'.

Maybe having been triggered, even certain hormones or brain chemistry start to dominate and take over the physiology for a period of time that makes it longer that a hair trigger flash of rage and more like a festering few days or weeks.

I noticed in Elliot Rodger's autobiography / manifesto he has long phases where he's just losing it and inconsolable after being triggered by a sense of unfairness (that the pretty tall blonde white girls weren't dating him). That's when he plans his deadly day of reckoning.

Suffering is all relative to the subject so it doesn't really matter what BK has in reality but what 'the lack' represents to him by comparison to his peer group or the peer group he's focused on. JMO

 

[Jurisprudence]

"Prosecutors in the case against murder suspect Bryan Kohberger said his defense team was trying to "grind the litigation" to a "halt" with flimsy arguments and attempting to "buy more time" to challenge his indictment.

Defense attorneys for Kohberger, a one-time doctoral candidate accused of killing four college students last year, had asked for a stay by "raising allegations of technical violations without ever explaining how any reach the 'substantial' standard set forth" in Idaho's jury selection process statute," prosecutors wrote in a court filing released Monday...

"The Court should decline to indulge the Defendant's already-stated intention to buy more time to engage in various litigation strategies," the prosecution wrote. "This motion, like his last, should be denied."

Idaho college killings prosecutors challenge defense's grand jury claims

Prosecutors said the reasons Kohberger's defense lawyers gave were outside the scope a statute or were a misreading the statute.

abcnews.go.com

 

[di anna]

Wow, what a case. Every day, every week there is a turn of events. Not knowing much about how DNA is analyzed and reported hurts common every day folks that don't have the expertise to thoroughly make decisions. I dislike how this is going. Very complicated, but in my opinion, there seems to be such a big fuss over all this that I really wonder what is at stake here. Seems like the importance of getting a murderer
off the streets has gone by the wayside. It has become way too political.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Wow, what a case. Every day, every week there is a turn of events. Not knowing much about how DNA is analyzed and reported hurts common every day folks that don't have the expertise to thoroughly make decisions. I dislike how this is going. Very complicated, but in my opinion, there seems to be such a big fuss over all this that I really wonder what is at stake here. Seems like the importance of getting a murderer
off the streets has gone by the wayside. It has become way too political.

I don't think it's political at all. I think it's a matter of a defense attorney having nothing at all to work with so she's doing the only thing she has within her power: Try to throw as much mud in the wheels as possible. This all seems to me to be an exercise in futility. Delay tactic after delay tactic at great financial cost just to avoid the inevitable.

jmo

 

[kittythehare]

The odds of the DNA are 5 Octillion to one, IIRC.
I think I worked that correctly to 5 protons compared to 2kg.

I reckon you did 'n all.

 

[Jurisprudence]

The odds of the DNA are 5 Octillion to one, IIRC.
I think I worked that correctly to 5 protons compared to 2kg.

Math idiot here so I'll just go with I believe you did that exactly right!

 

[Boxer]

I went through each of the articles you listed above. Looked up the relevant cases as most of the articles were slim on info (the first one doesn't even mention what the issue with the DNA was).

Each of those cases involved comparing an unknown sample with a known suspect sample, in the same lab. And improper methodology caused a mixup that led to wrongful convictions based on said evidence.

Methodology doesn't accidentally produce a complete male profile in the 5 octallion range out of thin air And since neither the prosecution nor defense has presented any evidence that Kohlberger's DNA was known prior to it being pulled from his cheek after his arrest. Let alone in the same lab where the 1122 suspect blood was being analyzed for DNA....none of the cases you cited are relevant. IMO

This seems like an exercise in futility. IMO the defense knows this. Hence their filings being mostly focused on how LE moved through the family tree to arrive at BK's name. They likely know the chain of custody of the sheath. There's nothing there.

I will concede to the point that he has every right under the law to make these challenges, especially considering that he's facing the death penalty.

A defense two-fer: high stakes stalling with some ground work for appeal.

 

[kittythehare]

Good read here if anybody feels like it

Use of DNA Information in the Legal System - DNA Technology in Forensic Science - NCBI Bookshelf

This chapter provides an overview of how DNA evidence might be used in the investigation and prosecution of crimes and in civil litigation. The DNA typing discussed in this chapter is mainly standard single-locus RFLP typing on Southern blots without apparent band shifting; i.e., it is the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[I'm Nobody]

Good read here if anybody feels like it

Use of DNA Information in the Legal System - DNA Technology in Forensic Science - NCBI Bookshelf

This chapter provides an overview of how DNA evidence might be used in the investigation and prosecution of crimes and in civil litigation. The DNA typing discussed in this chapter is mainly standard single-locus RFLP typing on Southern blots without apparent band shifting; i.e., it is the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thanks Kitty. ^^^^Interesting 1992 article talks about the Frye Test/Standard re: expert witnesses.
Idaho goes with the more "Helpful" rule which is more flexible as to training required for experts. And that's how we got the botanist DNA "expert." In the end, the Judge decides who qualifies as an expert. JMO

"Idaho does not follow Daubert or Frye. Instead, Idaho applies its own Rules of Evidence 702 and 703 to determine the admissibility of an expert’s opinions. Nield v. Pocatello Health Servs. (2014), 156 Idaho 802, 850, 332 P.3d 714, 762. Under those rules, an expert must be “qualified.” I.R.E. 702. A qualified expert needs “practical experience or special knowledge,” but formal training is not required. Weeks v. E. Idaho Health Servs. (2007), 143 Idaho 834, 837, 153 P.3d 1180, 1183". Daubert Standard. Idaho

 

[katydid23]

Could you please show me how you calculated that the DNA randomly ending up on the knife sheath underneath a murder victim is a one in a trillion chance? There are only 65,000 people in the Moscow-Pullman area and the population of the entire US is only 331.9M. Please see my previous post for scientific information on how touch DNA can easily be deposited, even on objects the person has never actually touched.

Admittedly, I exaggerated the 'trillion' ---should have been in the millions. It is not just about the population numbers, but also the likelihood that the entire sheath is wiped clean, and the only DNA is found found on that tiny button---which is where someone might have pushed hard, BEFORE they put on their gloves. I would'nt expect random touch DNA to be right there, but not any anywhere else, imo.

Also, the defense stated very specifically that BK was NOT at 1122 King Rd that night.

Of course they did, that is their main job.

The white Elantra in the video does not have a visible license plate nor any identifying marks and you cannot see who is driving it. In addition, the windows appear to be tinted, whereas BK's Elantra windows did not appear to be tinted in the Indiana traffic stop videos. The white Elantra is one of approximately 33,000 2011 - 2015 white Elantra's in the area that LE was researching. There is absolutely nothing that proves it was BK's white Elantra in the videos that has been told to the public thus far.

I think , we will eventually find, that the cell phone data will link up with the vehicle data, so intricately that we will be able to absolutely identify that exact Elantra as being owned by and driven by the defendant at that crucial time.

I only wish there was proof because this is such an incredibly heinous crime. I want justice for the victims families and I want to be certain that whoever did this is permanently separated from society because they will do this again if they are not caught.

I think there is proof. The gag order has shielded us from the brunt of it so far. And the defense team is flooding us with multiple motions which make it seem as if there is a total lack of a credible evidence but I think that is an illusion. JMO