4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #87

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Good point. It's hardly reasonable to assume that LE didn't take and test multiple dna samples from the house, besides the knife sheath. This may be being blown out of all proportion because a) we are not hearing about the multipe samples that they did take and test to get some perspective and b) we have yet to hear the P's reasons and arguments. The D's filings are not made in a vacuum. Being loud doesn't have to mean being right. Moo.

So, I'd love to have your perspective on this, Jepop (and others' too). SHOULD it be the case that the Defense can go collect evidence at a crime scene? It's been a kind of inviolable rule in US Criminal Procedure that it is LE investigates (because, well, there was no Defense at the time, obviously0.

And then the Defense was given the opportunity to go into the house, but AFAIK, given no search warrants to go beyond what LE and the State had already done.

SHOULD they be able to get a search warrant and go to the house? Would that be more fair? I can't quite picture the logistics of it, but I'm interested in what you think about the legal consequences of such a precedent being established.

And to everyone - some of you have followed many more cases than I have. Has the Defense ever gotten a pre-trial search warrant to do their own investigation at the crime scene, physically have custody of things like mattresses, sheets, vacuum cleaner contents (even if not being used by the Prosecution)?

From my little perch, the first thing I think of is that nearly everyone in the United States would end up being investigated if this becomes precedent. If the "crime scene" is expanded to include all the rooms in a house, then all the porches and garages nearby, and then...to every associated person's vehicles, etc., an awful lot of "unknown" DNA is going to get studied - presumably by genetic genealogy? What a complicated mess for the courts.

IMO.
 
Oh gosh….I JUST listened to the very start of the Part 1 CourtTV video of the hearing.

Prosecutor says “…we have given the Defense everything we have received from the Lab. They’ve asked for DNA work ups on other people, to the extent that they don’t have them, they weren’t done. We can’t produce something that doesn’t exist. We’ve provided everything. There is one outstanding lab report that relates to the forensic examination by the lab personnel at the crime scene itself….”

to me, that answers the question on whether or not these other unidentified dna samples were tested. and it seems like the State isn’t interested in getting those tested.

CourtTV YouTube video link @
 
I wonder if a victim's family member would be allowed to wear a t-shirt with a message promoting Idaho's death penalty by firing squad during the actual jury trial when it begins. Just curious about rules of courtroom decorum, etc.


edited to remove other posts
this is the juror dress code:


Jurors reporting for jury duty or jury selection in the state of Idaho are expected to dress professionally, in a manner appropriate for a court room.
Most courthouses suggest dress ranging from business casual to business attire. For men, this means slacks or khakis and a polo or button-down shirt, potentially with a tie or suit jacket. For women, this means a professional-looking pair of pants or a skirt, cardigan, sweater, twinset, or shirt.
As a juror, you are expected to maintain a professional and respectable appearance while performing your duties. Hats should never be worn in a courtroom, and you should avoid wearing shorts, t-shirts, tanktops, or anything printed with logos or slogans.

I realize that you are asking about attendees, but
courts generally do not like slogans because of possible reactions
distractions, etc
 
And that worked out so well for him, didn't it? Bundy is a perfect example of why you don't talk to LE if you are a suspect or have been arrested.
I should have read between the lines that you meant successful ones. Too quick to reply has always been a fault of mine. Part of the reason that just about every.single.one of my posts are EBM
 
Where did I say it was a law. I said in the US you don't speak to LE if accused of a crime. The Miranda warning explains it clearly.
You didn't mention the Miranda warning in the post I replied to nor is it relevant to the statement "You don't talk to police." We do NOT have to exercise every right we have, every time we can. I have the right to bear arms (but I don't). And so on. Warnings are not the same thing as "You must do it."

You said "In the US you don't talk to police." You could have said, "I would never talk to the police,"but you addressed the rest of us - I replied that I would, I have and I do.

I didn't used to. And maybe if I thought I was suspected of a terrible crime, I wouldn't. But I have the right to do either (remain silent or speak) because we also have the Right of Freedom of Speech. In the US you can speak to the police or not.

I do want to support those brave people who DO talk to the police, even sometimes when on the periphery of a crime. I spend a lot of time talking to people who SHOULD talk to the police, which is why I'm typing all this out. OTOH, I do understand why crime victims or people on the periphery of a crime do not do so. They have the right not to, but they need to weigh the pro's and con's, IMO.

All of this JMO. Well, the part about it not being a law is not opinion - we DO have freedom of speech and can speak to police if we wish. The part where I said that sometimes people should go to the police and talk to them is my opinion and it is not a universal people of advice - every case is different.
 
The only thing that matters is the dna on the sheath. You could swab that house and find dozens of male samples, we know this from all the cases we’ve followed.

Just wait until the car results come back. We already know he’s a sick creep from his behavior at his school, but this will confirm just how evil he is.

He bought the exact knife. It is indisputable that he has an issue with women.

His phone shows him being somewhere where he had no business being, including the morning of the killings.

Dumping trash in the neighbor’s yard. Wearing latex gloves.

I’m stunned that anyone thinks this is remotely complicated.
Yeah.

Dumping trash in the neighbor’s yard. Wearing latex gloves. … makes this whole DNA thing by the defense absurd imo. BK was certainly worried about his DNA left behind at the crime scene.
 
Oh gosh….I JUST listened to the very start of the Part 1 CourtTV video of the hearing.

Prosecutor says “…we have given the Defense everything we have received from the Lab. They’ve asked for DNA work ups on other people, to the extent that they don’t have them, they weren’t done. We can’t produce something that doesn’t exist. We’ve provided everything. There is one outstanding lab report that relates to the forensic examination by the lab personnel at the crime scene itself….”

to me, that answers the question on whether or not these other unidentified dna samples were tested. and it seems like the State isn’t interested in getting those tested.

CourtTV YouTube video link @
Dna work up on other people means identified people surely? When we're talking about unknown dna samples aren't we talking about samples that were tested, and unable to to be eliminated - ie via codis or against known people? I think the D is asking for the results of those unknown samples as if they were subject to snp tests for potential IGG analysis and it is these tests that don't exist. Jmo
 
bbm. Some of these tweets were already posted a few threads back.

Court is about to convene in Moscow, ID ahead of today's Bryan Kohberger hearing. I will be live tweeting using this thread below.

Court TV is our pool camera inside the courtroom today. There is no live feed available for other networks and affiliates, but that will be shared later today on @NewsNation. We will also have liveshots throughout the day recapping today's hearing.

The courtroom is not at capacity, but it is more filled than previous hearings. The Goncalves family is in attendance alongside their attorney. Steve Goncalves told @BanfieldonNN last night that he wants to monitor the hearing closely to make sure justice is served.

NOW: #BryanKohberger and his defense team have entered the courtroom. Bryan is wearing a grey suit with a blue and gold striped tie. He entered the room calmly and did not appear to have much of an expression on his face. The judge has now taken his seat at the bench.

We are now on the record. Several motions are set for today. State's motions: protective order (investigative genetic genealogy DNA issue) which is related to defense's motion to compel. Also motion to reconsider speedy trial, motion to stay proceedings alleging irregularities in grand jury indictment, motion to compel defense of alibi, motion for scheduling order.

The defense will go first in discussing the motion to compel. There are witnesses expected to be called today. But first, some objections from the prosecution. State believes calling attorneys to testify about legal conclusions and discovery dispute is not proper. She says that Anne Taylor is an attorney and should be able to make the case without calling on fellow attorneys to testify as witnesses.

The defense says it's attorney witnesses are known to the state and have experience sharing with Idaho Courts. Defense claims prosecution knew that they were going to be called as witnesses for a long time, and that they have traveled to Moscow today for this specific reason and should be allowed to testify.

Defense says they are well versed in criminal defense and DNA genealogy. They will not be called as witnesses if this goes to trial, but are critical today when discussing DNA evidence and why it should be allowed into discovery for the defense's preparation of the case.

As for the CV witness, defense says the declaration has her background and training which speaks to her credibility. Acknowledges that the declaration only came in yesterday (which is "late"), but said it was for undisclosed reasons beyond their control.

Judge is concerned about opinions of constitutional law and procedures of discovery. Judge says Anne Taylor is capable of making those cases. But says that their expertise on genetic genealogy has merit. Says it would be "wise for him to allow it" on the record.

Judge says he doesn't want to get into arguments about law but wants to be able to hear from both sides. Judge denies the objections of the prosecution and will allow witness testimony.

Clarification on the defense's motion to compel: Defense does not have the lab results of the other three unidentified male DNA samples, two from within the house and one from outside the house. That is what they want. Prosecution says they have provided everything they have.

Judge: "There has to be some level of trust in discovery. You are all sworn attorneys. Mr. Thompson is saying there is one more lab report coming your way…”

Judge asks prosecution to reach back out to the lab and make sure there are no other existing documents and results that the defense does not have. Defense is adamant that the prosecution has given everything they have, and calls the pleas for more information "speculation."



Defense calls first witness: Stephen Mercer. Brief pause in proceedings to excuse the other witnesses that will be testifying today. Mercer is from Maryland and is a licensed attorney in D.C. in the field criminal defense with specialization in DNA.

Mercer says he's not here to discuss Idaho's discovery rules or offer legal opinions, but rather focus on his expertise in forensic DNA interpretation. "Who must comply with their duty to investigate?" Mercer says forensic evidence is often central to a case.

Mercer says it is essential for the attorneys to know about the details of the testing and investigation of DNA evidence. There are pre-trial concerns involving suppression and 4th amendment issues.
There has to be a factual investigation of the conduct law enforcement took during forensic analysis. "Was it fast and loose? Was there searching of databanks that violate the terms and conditions of the databanks?" Attorneys must know these things ahead of a trial.

DNA profiles contain a vast amount of information that is often private and attorneys need to be able to assess and evaluate that information without violating privacy rights during a trial.

Mercer says it is nearly impossible for the defense to know what type of witnesses to call on their client's behalf for a trial if they don't obtain all the discovery of the scientific testing of DNA evidence samples. "It is absolutely crucial to get that discovery.”


Stepping out of the courtroom briefly for a liveshot. Will return to live tweeting in about 15 minutes as long as the bailiff allows me back in.



Next witness for the defense: Dr. Lea Larkin (sp?).
She is from CA and is a professional genetic genealogist. She admits she is nervous today.

Larkin first began researching genetic genealogy back in 2014. Her biology background helped her pick it up quickly. She is self-taught but now teaches courses at the Salt Lake Institute of Genealogy.

Larkin says she was approached by the defense. Her role is to educate on how genetic genealogy works. Sorry, stepping out again for another liveshot.

Court has recessed for 10 minutes to allow both sides to review a PowerPoint presentation that Larkin brought with her today.

Court is back in session and I am back in the courtroom. The PowerPoint Presentation will be shown and the prosecution will be allowed to cross-examine the witness at a later date once they more thoroughly review with presentation on their own time.

The presentation shows how genetic genealogy works. Larkin explains the three different types of DNA. Now explaining how the DNA sampling works. She's explaining the process of genetic DNA testing companies who take that DNA and tell you your ethnic and genetic background.

Think: Ancestry and 23 & Me. They have separate databases which do not share their results with one another. Genetic genealogists like Larkin have access to the results if they are invited.

Larkin says she has experience tracking an unknown person to a positive match using only DNA evidence. A list is provided depending on the database that is providing. Family trees can be linked to the database if that is the tester's choice. She says it is time-consuming.

Larkin says matches that a genetic genealogist can provide can only be considered approximate, never definite. This is why you never hear, "it's a 100% match.”

Even still, when multiple matches are made based on a DNA sample, it is very easy to sort the list on "most likely" versus "least likely.”

More discussion on how genetic genealogy works... it includes a lot of industry and scientific jargon.

 
So, I'd love to have your perspective on this, Jepop (and others' too). SHOULD it be the case that the Defense can go collect evidence at a crime scene? It's been a kind of inviolable rule in US Criminal Procedure that it is LE investigates (because, well, there was no Defense at the time, obviously0.

And then the Defense was given the opportunity to go into the house, but AFAIK, given no search warrants to go beyond what LE and the State had already done.

SHOULD they be able to get a search warrant and go to the house? Would that be more fair? I can't quite picture the logistics of it, but I'm interested in what you think about the legal consequences of such a precedent being established.

And to everyone - some of you have followed many more cases than I have. Has the Defense ever gotten a pre-trial search warrant to do their own investigation at the crime scene, physically have custody of things like mattresses, sheets, vacuum cleaner contents (even if not being used by the Prosecution)?

From my little perch, the first thing I think of is that nearly everyone in the United States would end up being investigated if this becomes precedent. If the "crime scene" is expanded to include all the rooms in a house, then all the porches and garages nearby, and then...to every associated person's vehicles, etc., an awful lot of "unknown" DNA is going to get studied - presumably by genetic genealogy? What a complicated mess for the courts.

IMO.
Idk if I can get my mind around that atm! Only thing that comes immediately to mind is I don't think it's the right time time to be creating new laws. I would personally prefer them to go easy on trying to make precedents and instead get on with defending their client within the confines of the law. Moo
 
So, we literally can't assume where the police were searching for/collecting DNA samples from. It's a 3 story house, with the crimes occurring in 2 bedrooms. You have two internal stairwells that could have been potentially used. You have a multitude of potential entry points--door (normal and patio) and windows. When the police begin their evidence collection, they are going to have to cast a broad net because they don't yet have any firm ideas as to the path the killer used in the house. They might not even yet had a good idea of what was the entry and exit point(s). So, they are going to look for evidence both inside and outside on all the doors , all the window frames (except some obvious ones like Xana's window externally), all the door knobs, potential walking paths on the floor throughout the house, both stairwell railings and stairs, etc.

But after a few days, they start to get some ideas of potential entry/exit point(s). They begin to formulate an idea after the preliminary autopsy reports as to potential order of victims, which influences their ideas of what paths the killer took inside the house. DNA collected from areas that are now deemed to be non relevant based on what the evidence is telling them, becomes lower priority. Obviously the DNA on the knife sheath, once found, becomes priority one, as does any DNA on what they are predicting to be paths and entry/exit.

For example--we saw them swabbing and examining the kitchen window in the very first days. Does anything still think that was an entry/exit point--I know I don't, not after DM's testimony. Pretty sure she would have heard an intruder clambering out the kitchen window since she was now wide awake and scared. And why would he need to when he was literally feet away at that point from a perfectly good sliding glass door for his exit? So now, any potential DNA on the kitchen window drops quite low on the significance/priority list. But it was initially validly inside rational search areas.

The police go and match all the other samples, which takes time. Finally LE is left with 3 unknown samples from areas that are no longer deemed important due to being ruled out as entrance/exit/path. But by now they have a lot of things leading to Kohberger.

Do you, as LE, then insist at that point that you must identify those 3 unknown samples from now irrelevant locations in the house no matter how long it takes and refuse to arrest Kohberger until they are? For how long?
Running CSI does not test every inch of a house, they only look at the crime scene. We watched where they tested via photos and video taken at the house and it was in the rooms where the crimes were committed, and along the path between those rooms and out the back door and all around the outside of the house. And there were items collected outside. I'm sitting here thinking what if one of the unknown DNA samples came from the handprint that was on the sliding glass door? What if it was on MM's bedroom doorknob? One of the unknown samples came from a glove found outside. It was a cool night in Moscow on the night of the murders, not really quite cold enough to require gloves. You can tell by watching the food truck video - no one is wearing gloves although some have hands in pockets. Would you still think it was irrelevant? I wouldn't. To rule in and rule out evidence, you need to test it and figure out if it is a part of the crime or not. There must be some kind of result of the testing. We know it was male DNA and hopefully they ran it through CODIS - there should be a result for that as well but the defense doesn't have it and the prosecutor says he doesn't have it. Apparently they didn't do GG on it as there is no result, not even a result saying they couldn't identify any family related to the 3 unknown male DNA samples. So now we have 3 potential SODDI's in this case which the defense is guaranteed to exploit to the fullest extent possible.
 
Judge has taken his post. #BryanKohberger has also taken his seat. Kohberger offers a very faint smile, maybe more of an acknowledgement, to his defense attorney when he enters. The defense calls its next witness, Gabriella Vargas, to the stand.

Vargas is from California and is an investigative genetic genealogist.

Vargas is detailing her experience with investigative genetic genealogy, including her own self-taught education on the subject and personal mission to find her biological father which began in 2018.


 
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