4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #88

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Also, by policy the GG search is anonymous, and LE does not have access, they only get the output to their query.

For what AT is alleging, Orthram labs would need to be using a non-opted in data base contrary to DOJ policy.

Excellent points. AT is asking Othram and LE both...to go against the rules of the data system and private ownership. Since Othram has everyone sign that they know what their results are used for, the results are just there - in the system, for anyone to try and match with. The end users are SUPPOSED to be law enforcement in the first place. Everyone opted in.
 
Are you really saying that if I leave my DNA on a component of a murder weapon, admit to being out and about during the hours where the murder was committed (and without witnesses), I turn my phone off before arriving near the murder scene, turning it back on some time after the killings, and **return to the scene of the crime** - I should not be on a Judge's radar?

What is needed then? Actual video of every crime that's committed? For me, since I know this ripples through the whole Justice system, I have to think that nearly every thief, armed robber and carjacker would go free if we could not use a confluence of events to arrest. The arrestee then gets every chance to provide a defense (in this case, so far technical issues and not matters of fact - Defense admits no one knew where Kohberger was that night and that he was out "driving around.")

When a property crime occurs, DNA labs are so over run that we cannot (where I live) expect that sort of investigation - not even fingerprints. So, we're down to using these techniques for only the murders or other crimes with mayhem. Not all murders get this kind of investigation - the FBI crime lab was on site to run victim DNA and separate the results from Other DNA right away.

Yet despite these incredible advances and (IMO) an impeccable investigation, we have people who think the confluence of events is not enough even for an arrest! My ex was ARRESTED for jay-walking! (At a college football game! I could go on!)
.

IMO.
<snipped for focus>

Folks used to blame this sort of thinking on CSI:Las Vegas and it helping create unreasonable expectations for real world investigations and prosecutions.

This case is a perfect example of that. No conviction in 45 min excluding commercials? He must be innocent.

If the CSI effect was true at some point, I think it’s now taking on a life of its own independent of the show. And with the confluence of AI driven voice, image, video creation/replication there’s no telling where the bar of ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ eventually lands.
 
All quotes from the article cited above:

"Unfortunately, the process isn't quite as conclusive as it's often made out to be. DNA analysis doesn't typically involve sequencing the entire genome; instead, it focuses on certain sites that give a good indicator of differences between individuals.

Modern technology is capable of detecting even incredibly small traces of DNA. In theory, this is a huge advantage — but in practice, it can lead to false positives because of the sheer amount of genetic material that might be found."

"Partial profiles will match up with many more people than a full profile. And even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit. Further complicating matters, a single DNA profile might be mistakenly generated when samples from multiple people are accidentally combined. It’s a messy world."

"...even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit."

"Telling a jury it is implausible that anyone besides the suspect would have the same DNA test results is seldom, if ever, justified,” the report states." (referring to an American Bar Association Report)

"Then there’s the uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that any of us could have DNA present at a crime scene—even if we were never there. Moreover, DNA recovered at a crime scene could have been deposited there at a time other than when the crime took place. Someone could have visited beforehand or stumbled upon the scene afterward. Alternatively, their DNA could have arrived via a process called secondary transfer, where their DNA was transferred to someone else, who carried it to the scene."

"Additionally, DNA technology is becoming more and more sensitive, but this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice."

Add to all of the above the fact that there are, in every software product in existence, intermittent software errors which may or may not be caught and identified by the end user plus there can also be human errors in the process. To put it simply, AT has MORE than good reason to want full disclosure of how BK was identified via DNA. There is a plethora of things which can go wrong.

JMOO.
 
All quotes from the article cited above:

"Unfortunately, the process isn't quite as conclusive as it's often made out to be. DNA analysis doesn't typically involve sequencing the entire genome; instead, it focuses on certain sites that give a good indicator of differences between individuals.

Modern technology is capable of detecting even incredibly small traces of DNA. In theory, this is a huge advantage — but in practice, it can lead to false positives because of the sheer amount of genetic material that might be found."

"Partial profiles will match up with many more people than a full profile. And even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit. Further complicating matters, a single DNA profile might be mistakenly generated when samples from multiple people are accidentally combined. It’s a messy world."

"...even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit."

"Telling a jury it is implausible that anyone besides the suspect would have the same DNA test results is seldom, if ever, justified,” the report states." (referring to an American Bar Association Report)

"Then there’s the uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that any of us could have DNA present at a crime scene—even if we were never there. Moreover, DNA recovered at a crime scene could have been deposited there at a time other than when the crime took place. Someone could have visited beforehand or stumbled upon the scene afterward. Alternatively, their DNA could have arrived via a process called secondary transfer, where their DNA was transferred to someone else, who carried it to the scene."

"Additionally, DNA technology is becoming more and more sensitive, but this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice."

Add to all of the above the fact that there are, in every software product in existence, intermittent software errors which may or may not be caught and identified by the end user plus there can also be human errors in the process. To put it simply, AT has MORE than good reason to want full disclosure of how BK was identified via DNA. There is a plethora of things which can go wrong.

JMOO.

The defense isn't disputing the Idaho State Lab DNA results so we shouldn't be trying to dispute them on here.Very misleading.

5.37 Octillion times likely to be BK's DNA. TWENTY SEVEN ZEROS - 000000000000000000000000000

From @10ofRods:

No one is disputing the actual DNA labwork. The Prosecution did not run the DNA themselves, it was done at the Idaho State Police Lab. No one is claiming THEY did it wrong (especially as now there is a buccal swab and it matches Kohberger precisely, as it should).
 
Last edited:
The defense isn't disputing the Idaho State Lab DNA results so we shouldn't be trying to dispute them on here.Very misleading.

5.37 Octillion times likely to be BK's DNA. TWENTY SEVEN ZEROS - 000000000000000000000000000

From @10ofRods:

No one is disputing the actual DNA labwork. The Prosecution did not run the DNA themselves, it was done at the Idaho State Police Lab. No one is claiming THEY did it wrong (especially as now there is a buccal swab and it matches Kohberger precisely, as it should).
The AT idea is trying for is that the GG run by Ortham labs returned names or used data of peple not opted in.
She wants to get all the names in that were internally compared to the crime scene sample in the Ortham Opt-In database.

I hope she does not succeed.
 
All quotes from the article cited above:

"Unfortunately, the process isn't quite as conclusive as it's often made out to be. DNA analysis doesn't typically involve sequencing the entire genome; instead, it focuses on certain sites that give a good indicator of differences between individuals.

Modern technology is capable of detecting even incredibly small traces of DNA. In theory, this is a huge advantage — but in practice, it can lead to false positives because of the sheer amount of genetic material that might be found."

"Partial profiles will match up with many more people than a full profile. And even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit. Further complicating matters, a single DNA profile might be mistakenly generated when samples from multiple people are accidentally combined. It’s a messy world."

"...even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit."

"Telling a jury it is implausible that anyone besides the suspect would have the same DNA test results is seldom, if ever, justified,” the report states." (referring to an American Bar Association Report)

"Then there’s the uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that any of us could have DNA present at a crime scene—even if we were never there. Moreover, DNA recovered at a crime scene could have been deposited there at a time other than when the crime took place. Someone could have visited beforehand or stumbled upon the scene afterward. Alternatively, their DNA could have arrived via a process called secondary transfer, where their DNA was transferred to someone else, who carried it to the scene."

"Additionally, DNA technology is becoming more and more sensitive, but this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice."

Add to all of the above the fact that there are, in every software product in existence, intermittent software errors which may or may not be caught and identified by the end user plus there can also be human errors in the process. To put it simply, AT has MORE than good reason to want full disclosure of how BK was identified via DNA. There is a plethora of things which can go wrong.

JMOO.
MOO Not relevant in this case.
BK and the crime scene DNA are match.
 
All quotes from the article cited above:

"Unfortunately, the process isn't quite as conclusive as it's often made out to be. DNA analysis doesn't typically involve sequencing the entire genome; instead, it focuses on certain sites that give a good indicator of differences between individuals.

Modern technology is capable of detecting even incredibly small traces of DNA. In theory, this is a huge advantage — but in practice, it can lead to false positives because of the sheer amount of genetic material that might be found."

"Partial profiles will match up with many more people than a full profile. And even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit. Further complicating matters, a single DNA profile might be mistakenly generated when samples from multiple people are accidentally combined. It’s a messy world."

"...even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit."

"Telling a jury it is implausible that anyone besides the suspect would have the same DNA test results is seldom, if ever, justified,” the report states." (referring to an American Bar Association Report)

"Then there’s the uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that any of us could have DNA present at a crime scene—even if we were never there. Moreover, DNA recovered at a crime scene could have been deposited there at a time other than when the crime took place. Someone could have visited beforehand or stumbled upon the scene afterward. Alternatively, their DNA could have arrived via a process called secondary transfer, where their DNA was transferred to someone else, who carried it to the scene."

"Additionally, DNA technology is becoming more and more sensitive, but this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice."

Add to all of the above the fact that there are, in every software product in existence, intermittent software errors which may or may not be caught and identified by the end user plus there can also be human errors in the process. To put it simply, AT has MORE than good reason to want full disclosure of how BK was identified via DNA. There is a plethora of things which can go wrong.

JMOO.
Or she could just send it a lab for a second opinion?
 
All quotes from the article cited above:

"Unfortunately, the process isn't quite as conclusive as it's often made out to be. DNA analysis doesn't typically involve sequencing the entire genome; instead, it focuses on certain sites that give a good indicator of differences between individuals.

Modern technology is capable of detecting even incredibly small traces of DNA. In theory, this is a huge advantage — but in practice, it can lead to false positives because of the sheer amount of genetic material that might be found."

"Partial profiles will match up with many more people than a full profile. And even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit. Further complicating matters, a single DNA profile might be mistakenly generated when samples from multiple people are accidentally combined. It’s a messy world."

"...even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit."

"Telling a jury it is implausible that anyone besides the suspect would have the same DNA test results is seldom, if ever, justified,” the report states." (referring to an American Bar Association Report)

"Then there’s the uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that any of us could have DNA present at a crime scene—even if we were never there. Moreover, DNA recovered at a crime scene could have been deposited there at a time other than when the crime took place. Someone could have visited beforehand or stumbled upon the scene afterward. Alternatively, their DNA could have arrived via a process called secondary transfer, where their DNA was transferred to someone else, who carried it to the scene."

"Additionally, DNA technology is becoming more and more sensitive, but this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice."

Add to all of the above the fact that there are, in every software product in existence, intermittent software errors which may or may not be caught and identified by the end user plus there can also be human errors in the process. To put it simply, AT has MORE than good reason to want full disclosure of how BK was identified via DNA. There is a plethora of things which can go wrong.

JMOO.
This is at least the second time you've posted this article. It's OT, in my opinion, ORTHAM is complete "opt-in" and used in forensics.

The defense isn't disputing the Idaho State Lab DNA results so we shouldn't be trying to dispute them on here.Very misleading.

5.37 Octillion times likely to be BK's DNA. TWENTY SEVEN ZEROS - 000000000000000000000000000

From @10ofRods:

No one is disputing the actual DNA labwork. The Prosecution did not run the DNA themselves, it was done at the Idaho State Police Lab. No one is claiming THEY did it wrong (especially as now there is a buccal swab and it matches Kohberger precisely, as it should).
AT isn't disputing the Idaho State Lab DNA results. And how can a computer have a bias? Especially SINGLE SOURCE bias?
Thanks for counting all those zeroes, @Cool Cats !!!!!
 
All quotes from the article cited above:

"Unfortunately, the process isn't quite as conclusive as it's often made out to be. DNA analysis doesn't typically involve sequencing the entire genome; instead, it focuses on certain sites that give a good indicator of differences between individuals.

Modern technology is capable of detecting even incredibly small traces of DNA. In theory, this is a huge advantage — but in practice, it can lead to false positives because of the sheer amount of genetic material that might be found."

"Partial profiles will match up with many more people than a full profile. And even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit. Further complicating matters, a single DNA profile might be mistakenly generated when samples from multiple people are accidentally combined. It’s a messy world."

"...even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit."

"Telling a jury it is implausible that anyone besides the suspect would have the same DNA test results is seldom, if ever, justified,” the report states." (referring to an American Bar Association Report)

"Then there’s the uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that any of us could have DNA present at a crime scene—even if we were never there. Moreover, DNA recovered at a crime scene could have been deposited there at a time other than when the crime took place. Someone could have visited beforehand or stumbled upon the scene afterward. Alternatively, their DNA could have arrived via a process called secondary transfer, where their DNA was transferred to someone else, who carried it to the scene."

"Additionally, DNA technology is becoming more and more sensitive, but this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice."

Add to all of the above the fact that there are, in every software product in existence, intermittent software errors which may or may not be caught and identified by the end user plus there can also be human errors in the process. To put it simply, AT has MORE than good reason to want full disclosure of how BK was identified via DNA. There is a plethora of things which can go wrong.

JMOO.
This article, written in 2017, cites three studies:
from 2008, 1992, 2015

Review: Genetic Policing: The Use of Dna in Criminal Investigations by Robin Williams, Paul Johnson
By: Liz Heffernan
The British Journal of Criminology, Vol. 48, No. 5 (SEPTEMBER 2008), pp. 699-701
Oxford University Press

DNA Report Raises Concerns: Study backs genetic evidence, but questions reliability of labs, statistics
By: Don J. DeBenedictis
ABA Journal, Vol. 78, No. 7 (JULY 1992), p. 20
American Bar Association

Digital Evidence and the U.S. Criminal Justice System: Identifying Technology and Other Needs to More Effectively Acquire and Utilize Digital Evidence
By: Sean E. Goodison, Robert C. Davis and Brian A. Jackson
Digital Evidence and the U.S. Criminal Justice System: Identifying Technology and Other Needs to More Effectively Acquire and Utilize Digital Evidence, 2015
RAND Corporation



The study raising concerns about the reliability of labs was done in 1992?
 
The AT idea is trying for is that the GG run by Ortham labs returned names or used data of peple not opted in.
She wants to get all the names in that were internally compared to the crime scene sample in the Ortham Opt-In database.

I hope she does not succeed.
Can you even imagine? How voluminous that would be? His DNA was compared to every single person who submitted DNA! Computer near-instaneously eliminating the most remote matches, eliminating more and more, like a shrinking set of concentric circles, spiraling inward until it reached the closest matches! Even there, it would have spiraled around 3rd and 4th and 5th degree cousins! No need to include all those names when there was a 1st generation end product!

None of those cousins touched the sheath. Only BK did. And even then, the way DNA testing works, it's a mathematical ratio. It's always a comparison! Just like the genealogy process!

AT knows all this.

If she had something better to argue, she would.

JMO
 
This article, written in 2017, cites three studies:
from 2008, 1992, 2015

Review: Genetic Policing: The Use of Dna in Criminal Investigations by Robin Williams, Paul Johnson
By: Liz Heffernan
The British Journal of Criminology, Vol. 48, No. 5 (SEPTEMBER 2008), pp. 699-701
Oxford University Press

DNA Report Raises Concerns: Study backs genetic evidence, but questions reliability of labs, statistics
By: Don J. DeBenedictis
ABA Journal, Vol. 78, No. 7 (JULY 1992), p. 20
American Bar Association

Digital Evidence and the U.S. Criminal Justice System: Identifying Technology and Other Needs to More Effectively Acquire and Utilize Digital Evidence
By: Sean E. Goodison, Robert C. Davis and Brian A. Jackson
Digital Evidence and the U.S. Criminal Justice System: Identifying Technology and Other Needs to More Effectively Acquire and Utilize Digital Evidence, 2015
RAND Corporation



The study raising concerns about the reliability of labs was done in 1992?
31 YEARS AGO!!!!! LOL

All quotes from the article cited above:

"Unfortunately, the process isn't quite as conclusive as it's often made out to be. DNA analysis doesn't typically involve sequencing the entire genome; instead, it focuses on certain sites that give a good indicator of differences between individuals.

Modern technology is capable of detecting even incredibly small traces of DNA. In theory, this is a huge advantage — but in practice, it can lead to false positives because of the sheer amount of genetic material that might be found."

"Partial profiles will match up with many more people than a full profile. And even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit. Further complicating matters, a single DNA profile might be mistakenly generated when samples from multiple people are accidentally combined. It’s a messy world."

"...even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit."

"Telling a jury it is implausible that anyone besides the suspect would have the same DNA test results is seldom, if ever, justified,” the report states." (referring to an American Bar Association Report)

"Then there’s the uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that any of us could have DNA present at a crime scene—even if we were never there. Moreover, DNA recovered at a crime scene could have been deposited there at a time other than when the crime took place. Someone could have visited beforehand or stumbled upon the scene afterward. Alternatively, their DNA could have arrived via a process called secondary transfer, where their DNA was transferred to someone else, who carried it to the scene."

"Additionally, DNA technology is becoming more and more sensitive, but this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice."

Add to all of the above the fact that there are, in every software product in existence, intermittent software errors which may or may not be caught and identified by the end user plus there can also be human errors in the process. To put it simply, AT has MORE than good reason to want full disclosure of how BK was identified via DNA. There is a plethora of things which can go wrong.

JMOO.
Your article also says this:

" If digital evidence such as their mobile phone records place them at the scene at the time the break-in happened—even though they claim to have been elsewhere—then you have a more complete picture."
 
The AT idea is trying for is that the GG run by Ortham labs returned names or used data of peple not opted in.
She wants to get all the names in that were internally compared to the crime scene sample in the Ortham Opt-In database.

I hope she does not succeed.

That would be the entire database. If Judge Judge rules she's entitled to an entire database, given how often various databases are used in criminal cases, this will go all the way to the Supreme Court, I'd wager - with attention give to the fact that CODIS is also a database - but even with CODIS, the "hits" are matches - not the entire database.

Can you imagine if every single person who is in CODIS has their personal identifying information and this large chunk of medical history given out to LE any time they make a request? ALL felons in the US? What use would that be? I mean, clearly the FBI isn't going to change its rules just because of this, but the ask could be made in another court. Yikes. Obviously, *everyone* (Defense, Prosecution; Court) will get this information - so many people will have a complete database of felons (which they can use as they wish, once they have it).

Then - a jury (with no expertise) is supposed to know what to make of this large group of "potential matches"? How is the jury supposed to know what a match is?

What a mess. IMO. AT appears not to know that there is no way NOT to opt in, with Othram. It's the whole point of that database that it's for LE to use - and their terms of service are very very clear.
 
Can you even imagine? How voluminous that would be? His DNA was compared to every single person who submitted DNA! Computer near-instaneously eliminating the most remote matches, eliminating more and more, like a shrinking set of concentric circles, spiraling inward until it reached the closest matches! Even there, it would have spiraled around 3rd and 4th and 5th degree cousins! No need to include all those names when there was a 1st generation end product!

None of those cousins touched the sheath. Only BK did. And even then, the way DNA testing works, it's a mathematical ratio. It's always a comparison! Just like the genealogy process!

AT knows all this.

If she had something better to argue, she would.

JMO
I believe the jury when shown the DOJ policy, and the fact the Ortham Labs is a 100% opt-in database will see what the ruse is.
 
The AT idea is trying for is that the GG run by Ortham labs returned names or used data of peple not opted in.
She wants to get all the names in that were internally compared to the crime scene sample in the Ortham Opt-In database.

I hope she does not succeed.

No one asked me or my family members if we wanted to opt-in to anything when we did 23 and me.

Not sure what this even means.

Ortham should only be running general public DNA that is legal to run which I assume they do.

So I don't see the problem the defense is trying to manufacture. I'm going to research it.
 
No one asked me or my family members if we wanted to opt-in to anything when we did 23 and me.

Not sure what this even means.

Ortham should only be running general public DNA that is legal to run which I assume they do.

So I don't see the problem the defense is trying to manufacture. I'm going to research it.

I think (and @10ofRods and/or @Boxer can probably speak to this better) the opt-in might be to upload it to GED Match to find even more familial connections and LE has access to GED Match.

Moo
 
I use 23andMe. This is from their site.

Requests for 23andMe User Information​

23andMe chooses to use all practical legal and administrative resources to resist requests from law enforcement, and we do not share customer data with any public databases, or with entities that may increase the risk of law enforcement access. In certain circumstances, however, 23andMe may be required by law to comply with a valid court order, subpoena, or search warrant for genetic or personal information.

23andMe requires valid legal process in order to consider producing information about our users. 23andMe will only review inquiries as defined in 18 USC § 2703(c)(2) related to a valid trial, grand jury or administrative subpoena, warrant, or order. Administrative subpoenas must be served on 23andMe by personal service just like subpoenas in a court setting. 23andMe will consider releasing additional account information or transactional information pertaining to an account only in response to a court order issued pursuant to 18 USC § 2703(d). In addition, 23andMe will only consider inquiries from a government agency with proper jurisdiction.

To date, 23andMe has never received a request to preserve information potentially relevant to legal proceedings pursuant to 18 USC § 2703(f). If we do receive a valid preservation request, we will preserve a temporary snapshot of the relevant records for 90 days, after which we will automatically remove the information from our servers unless we receive a renewed valid preservation request for an additional 90-day period.

If a 23andMe user completes a valid authorization to disclose their Genetic Information to law enforcement, then 23andMe will disclose the information identified in the authorization. 23andMe will not disclose any identifying information about the authorizing user’s genetic relatives or connections that 23andMe holds unless those users also provide express, written consent.

23and Me publishes a Transparency Report which contains details on all law enforcement requests for user information that we receive.

 
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