4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #89

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I just can't help myself, but I always see it as if BK thought by turning off his phone and not having a readable license plate, that he would be invisible.

And him driving somewhere to the east of Moscow before starting to circle King Rd is still troubling to me. Why did he do that?

Maybe he had stuff stashed ? His kill outfit and the murder weapon. Maybe he left his home dressed in normal outdoor clothes, drove around to his remote secret stash place, changed into his 'kill outfit', lined the seat of his car with polythene etc, left his clean and forensically immaculate clothing there ready for later? Or better yet had a separate set of clothes stashed for later that he hadn't even touched on his way out. Since he's forensically aware, I wouldn't even be surprised if he was wearing a second hand pair of shoes purchased off ebay or in a charity shop for when inside the house, so they're not even aligning with his own wear and tear.

That way if he was captured on any local ring doorbells or a neighbour saw him going out in his jeans and boots and jacket, then he certainly wouldn't be dressed like that approaching the house, during the incident, and when leaving the incident.

Next up all he has to do is go back there -or- go to a third location, dispose of his cover alls and polythene sheet - probably set alight to the whole lot with a flamable lquid - maybe quickly wiped himself and his car handles etc down with surgical bleach wipes, put on his totally clean and fresh clothes, drive back home looking like a normal person in outdoor winter clothing. Anyone sees him walking back to his apartment is not going to testify this is a man who just did that crime, no way.

Even if he were stopped by LE in his vehicle, they might say can you step out of the car and they're going to immediately see this is not someone who just perpetrated such a crime.

I wouldn't be surprised if he deliberately wanted people to see him leave and return or be caught on cameras so they could say yep that's BK in his average jeans, boots and jacket how he always is.

I'd put money on it that he burned those clothes which raises the question of did no one see any fires? Or notice detritus or remains of a fire? Some people say he would throw his things in the river but that seems unlikely.

 

[Sundog]

This is not aimed at you specifically, @Sundog.
So, sorry, this is a stupid question but as I am not a native English speaker nor do I live in the US, I feel like I lack some interpretation skills in this discussion. How can a photo of a victim (in a morgue or on the scene) and victims injuries be prejudicial to the defendant?

I can understand how some photos could be prejudicial, for example some random photo of a random Elantra in King Road being shown during timeline discussion - this would actually even be misleading. And I could probably understand how it could be prejudicial if there was anything on the photos that specifically could be made to look like it is connected to BK. But what is prejudicial about describing the injuries? That they hint that it was done by someone who was stronger than the girls and had upper body strength? Well, duh? We don't need the photos to conclude that and this does not really narrow down the suspect pool too much. Or am I interpreting the meaning of "prejudicial" wrong in this legal context?

Research suggests that the use of gruesome photographs of a crime scene or autopsy increases affirmative verdicts by a jury. Prejudicial refers to the injection of undue emotionalism into a trial that is prejudicial to the defendant.

There are a lot of research studies, legal opinions and Supreme Court cases that address this issue that you can find if you do an online search, and below I am quoting from one study just to give an idea of what the issues might be. It's just one of the many articles on this topic that came up when I did a google search.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6818434/

Gruesome crime scene and autopsy photographs are regularly introduced in both criminal and civil trials (Bandes & Salerno, 2014; Feigenson, 2010; Risinger, 1998). Admitting gruesome photographs (meaning in this context gory, bloody, or violent photographs of injury or death to a human body) as evidence in a legal case is a complex judicial decision. The Federal Rules of Evidence (FRE) hold that evidence is presumptively admissible if it is relevant, meaning it has ‘any tendency to make a fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence; and the fact is of consequence in determining the action’ FRE, 2009, rule 401). However, FRE 403 states that even relevant evidence may be excluded if ‘its probative value is substantially outweighed by a danger of… unfair prejudice’ (FRE, 2009). Unfair prejudice, in this case, refers to either ‘the injection of undue emotionalism into the proceeding arousing hostility, anger, or sympathy’ or ‘the likelihood that the jury will misuse the evidence in some way or give it undue weight’ (Muller & Kirkpatrick, 2003, p. 176). Thus, in deciding whether or not to admit gruesome photographic evidence, judges must determine how probative the evidence is, speculate about the possible unfair prejudicial effects of such evidence, and then determine whether or not the latter ‘substantially outweighs’ the former. Of course, this balancing test is inherently a legal determination, not a scientific one. But the possible effect that gruesome photographic evidence exerts on jurors is a decidedly empirical question, and one that has been addressed in numerous empirical investigations spanning nearly four decades.

 

[10ofRods]

Maybe he had stuff stashed ? His kill outfit and the murder weapon. Maybe he left his home dressed in normal outdoor clothes, drove around to his remote secret stash place, changed into his 'kill outfit', lined the seat of his car with polythene etc, left his clean and forensically immaculate clothing there ready for later? Or better yet had a separate set of clothes stashed for later that he hadn't even touched on his way out. Since he's forensically aware, I wouldn't even be surprised if he was wearing a second hand pair of shoes purchased off ebay or in a charity shop for when inside the house, so they're not even aligning with his own wear and tear.

That way if he was captured on any local ring doorbells or a neighbour saw him going out in his jeans and boots and jacket, then he certainly wouldn't be dressed like that approaching the house, during the incident, and when leaving the incident.

Next up all he has to do is go back there -or- go to a third location, dispose of his cover alls and polythene sheet - probably set alight to the whole lot with a flamable lquid - maybe quickly wiped himself and his car handles etc down with surgical bleach wipes, put on his totally clean and fresh clothes, drive back home looking like a normal person in outdoor winter clothing. Anyone sees him walking back to his apartment is not going to testify this is a man who just did that crime, no way.

Even if he were stopped by LE in his vehicle, they might say can you step out of the car and they're going to immediately see this is not someone who just perpetrated such a crime.

I wouldn't be surprised if he deliberately wanted people to see him leave and return or be caught on cameras so they could say yep that's BK in his average jeans, boots and jacket how he always is.

I'd put money on it that he burned those clothes which raises the question of did no one see any fires? Or notice detritus or remains of a fire? Some people say he would throw his things in the river but that seems unlikely.

This is brilliant, really. Pulls together so many pieces of this puzzle.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

This is brilliant, really. Pulls together so many pieces of this puzzle.

Well thank you but that's just what I'd do if killing a bunch of people which is also something I would also never do (hopefully).

I certainly wouldn't buy a KaBar off amazon, that makes zero sense whatsoever. Especially bearing in mind he had knife skills from his butchering days and would know where to purchase specialist knives, even if he had his 'heart' set on a KaBar, surely can aquire one in a different method?

 

[Hapworth]

m00c0w
Well-Known Member
I personally think he very carefully planned a lot of this out and did choose to cross state lines and attack at a different university because it would distance the homicide from himself. He also had an out of state plate until shortly after the murders, when he picked up Washington plates. Which I think was also intentional - his car would no longer fit the description of his car.

I believe he planned very meticulously, but this isn’t something that can really be rehearsed. You’re not in it until you’re in it, and once he was in it, he was way out of his league and made stupid mistakes he never accounted for (the most glaring being the knife sheath left at the scene). He probably thought it would be easier than it was, and there were probably some things he never dreamed of, like an unaccounted for roommate actually seeing him in the house. The wheels fell off pretty quickly, so he needed to mitigate as much as he could. Which resulted in him traveling to PA, separating his DNA into neighbors’ trash, etc. Unfortunately for him (fortunately for everyone else), you don’t know what you don’t know… and he didn’t know that LE was able to identify him as quickly as they did and probably didn’t anticipate federal involvement to the level it was.

JMO

ETA: I also fully believe he thinks he will get away with this.




Reply by Boxer.:
Agree about everyone has the perfect plan...MOO losing the sheath is just so something that an academic with violent dream would do. Unaware that when one really exerts oneself nothing stays in pockets, no matter how secure that thing seems when standing or crouching down for a test.

The plate replacement could be intentional , related to the crime , or intentional not related to the crime . His Pennsylvania plate/registration was expiring 11/30/2022. Food for thought.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Well thank you but that's just what I'd do if killing a bunch of people which is also something I would also never do (hopefully).

I certainly wouldn't buy a KaBar off amazon, that makes zero sense whatsoever. Especially bearing in mind he had knife skills from his butchering days and would know where to purchase specialist knives, even if he had his 'heart' set on a KaBar, surely can aquire one in a different method?

I have this memory that one of the earliest things LE did was canvas local hunting/weapon stores for recent purchases of a knife like that. Maybe in his mind, appearing on camera or in the memory of someone at a local store like that was higher risk than an Amazon purchase, which would be fine assuming nothing ever connected him to the crime.

 

[Chloegirl]

In the PCA, LE brings BK into the narrative around 2:45 am on Nov. 13, in Pullman, on campus and turning off his phone before heading toward 270, which leads to Moscow. Based on that, I sort of had a picture of BK being in his apartment up until then, which made me question how he would know what was going on at the King Rd house, unless there was an online element we don't know about.

But, then AT stated that BK was out driving around late on the 12th and early on the 13th. One could argue that if this is truly what BK was doing, it doesn't mean it was related to the murders, but I feel like AT inserting the part about him driving late on the 12th might suggest BK needed an alibi for something that occurred on the 12th, as well. JMO.

Since we don't know anything about camera or phone data from late on the 12th, we have no idea where he was, but that data would have likely been collected during the investigation and is well known to the State and the D by now. What we do know is that he was back in Pullman around 2:45 am on the 13th, turning off his phone, and heading in the direction of Moscow.

This is JMO, but it seems awfully suspicious to me that he was likely driving around during the hours that the victims were out and about on the 12th, then we have this void of 45 min to 1 hour between when the victims all got home around 1:45/2 am and when BK was in Pullman (after supposedly already being out driving), turning off his phone and heading in the direction of Moscow, out for another drive. Really? I mean, I can only take a guess, but the fact that AT includes late on the 12th in with early on the 13th for his driving around hints that there might be evidence regarding BK/his phone/his elantra/whatever in Moscow late on the 12th. JMO.

Wild speculation, but I think he was in Moscow late on the 12th, knew when they were all home (or heading home) and maybe saw an opportunity or otherwise made the decision about the time being right. He could have been back to Pullman by 2 or 2:15 (or earlier, depending on what he was doing) and still had a half hour (at least) to do whatever he needed to do and be where he was on campus by 2:45. Let's not forget the unaccounted for time between leaving Pullman and the first camera footage we know of just before 3:30 going west on Indian Hills and then Styner (and yes, I'm willing to assume for now these are all the same white elantra as the one in Pullman). I think when he went back to Pullman, he got some things, and then drove someplace remote somewhere east of Moscow to finish getting ready. IDK, he could have had other reasons he went east during that time gap. We have no way of knowing. Anyway, that's the picture I have now...

I have always felt that he was stalking them in person the grub truck, there are a lot of images and just because it hasn't been released to us yet does not mean he doesn't pop up in that video or his car was captured nearby. Knowing his plan, he could have done so from afar but he would have been watching them from his warm car and online, watching them get picked up. Literally stalking their every move.

I feel he probably tried to get close, tried to get an energetic hit off of them, asking himself was this the night? These things don't just happen in a vacuum. They get fed and people with obsessions reinforce feelings with repetition. Maybe he had a number obsession and he stalked them 12 times and on the 13th, also 11/13, he moved forward with his plan. His world at WSU was unraveling after all.

He likely went and prepared. Rumination would have been part of that, going over plans, going over routes, checking gear. Remember he's not just treating them like prey (thinking these college girls don't even know he's there, don't acknowledge him) he would be becoming a predator. We recognize this as sickness, unfortunately it is still necessary to do what he did. It's an elaborate plan with a lot of moving parts, someone who thinks like this would have enjoyed that lead up.

Earlier, he might have been digging a hole to put everything in. I have even wondered where that would be maybe in the nearby cemetery (he was spotted on White Avenue in his car), on just a regular mountain back road, or maybe near a pond where he could rinse off quickly and redress in dry clothing?

He may have visited other places like stores, to get gas (lots of driving), pick up materials he needed, or as a distraction for his vague "driving around" alibi. JMOO

 

[maskedwoman]

I have this memory that one of the earliest things LE did was canvas local hunting/weapon stores for recent purchases of a knife like that. Maybe in his mind, appearing on camera or in the memory of someone at a local store like that was higher risk than an Amazon purchase, which would be fine assuming nothing ever connected him to the crime.

I have the same recollection. I believe there was also some discussion as to whether he might have bought it at home and taken it with him. The latter certainly seems the smarter play to me, to separate his purchase from where the crime took place. Especially if he planned something like this for a long time, or perhaps took it with him hot prowling.

If they did not find any evidence of him buying it locally to the crime scene, or online, I wouldn't be surprised if LE from his home area also canvassed to see if they could find evidence of a local purchase while he still lived in PA. There have been impressively few leaks from LE (Washington DC should be so leak proof!), so I supposed we'll have to wait until trial to know whether Dateline was right and he really did buy it on Amazon. MOOooo

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I have always felt that he was stalking them in person the grub truck, there are a lot of images and just because it hasn't been released to us yet does not mean he doesn't pop up in that video or his car was captured nearby. Knowing his plan, he could have done so from afar but he would have been watching them from his warm car and online, watching them get picked up. Literally stalking their every move.

I feel he probably tried to get close, tried to get an energetic hit off of them, asking himself was this the night? These things don't just happen in a vacuum. They get fed and people with obsessions reinforce feelings with repetition. Maybe he had a number obsession and he stalked them 12 times and on the 13th, also 11/13, he moved forward with his plan. His world at WSU was unraveling after all.

He likely went and prepared. Rumination would have been part of that, going over plans, going over routes, checking gear. Remember he's not just treating them like prey (thinking these college girls don't even know he's there, don't acknowledge him) he would be becoming a predator. We recognize this as sickness, unfortunately it is still necessary to do what he did. It's an elaborate plan with a lot of moving parts, someone who thinks like this would have enjoyed that lead up.

Earlier, he might have been digging a hole to put everything in. I have even wondered where that would be maybe in the nearby cemetery (he was spotted on White Avenue in his car), on just a regular mountain back road, or maybe near a pond where he could rinse off quickly and redress in dry clothing?

He may have visited other places like stores, to get gas (lots of driving), pick up materials he needed, or as a distraction for his vague "driving around" alibi. JMOO

There's no way he would wash in a pond - too much microbacterial evidence would be left in residue on his body and that could be proof. If he washed himself down, guaranteed it was with clean water and bleach. Also, it was freezing cold weather.

 

[Boxer]

The plate replacement could be intentional , related to the crime , or intentional not related to the crime . His Pennsylvania plate/registration was expiring 11/30/2022. Food for thought.

Also homemade and commerical plate number obscuring products can be used to avid being identified.
Sprays, adhesive film amd scrubbing off the reflective coating on the plate prevent cameras from picking up the numbers.
Hope they got a hold of the old PA plate to see if this happened.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Well thank you but that's just what I'd do if killing a bunch of people which is also something I would also never do (hopefully).

I certainly wouldn't buy a KaBar off amazon, that makes zero sense whatsoever. Especially bearing in mind he had knife skills from his butchering days and would know where to purchase specialist knives, even if he had his 'heart' set on a KaBar, surely can aquire one in a different method?

Yes, but you are thinking as a rational person reacting to a crime already committed. We don't know what was going through BK's mind during the time leading up to, during and after the murders.

MOO

 

[Sundog]

Hearing this week (Wednesday, September 13) on the Defense's Motion to Remove Cameras from the Courtroom. Below is the State's response dated September 6th, not sure if has already been posted. Seems the State and Defense both agree that cameras should be banned from the courtroom. It will be interesting to see what the Judge decides.
------------------------------------------------------------

STATE OF IDAHO, Plaintiff, V. BRYAN C. KOHBERGER Defendant. Case No. CR29-22-2805 STATE'S RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT'S "MOTION TO REMOVE CAMERAS FROM THE COURTROOM"

COMES NOW the State of Idaho, by and through the Latah County Prosecuting Attorney, and respectfully submits the following response to the Defendant's "Motion to Remove Cameras from the Courtroom" filed herein on August 24, 2023.

As the Court and the parties, including intervenors, are aware, this case has and continues to attract significant public and media attention involving not only traditional media, but also a broad range of social media-related posting, blogs, podcasts, and other disseminations, etc. This case also involves significant physical and emotional components not only by virtue of the nature of the killings themselves, but also by the myriad circumstances surrounding the victims, their associates, friends, family, the residents at 1122 King Road, and so forth.

This case will necessarily involve not only evidence of a graphic nature, but also testimony from a number of young and vulnerable witnesses. These include the surviving roommates of Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle, and also a number of University of Idaho coeds and families and friends. In addition to, and at least partially as a result of, the substantial traditional and social media coverage, certain witnesses have already been subjected to threats and harassment, including physical intrusions, directed at not only the witnesses and other University coeds, but their extended families and friends.

The State fully understands the enormous value that responsible media has in helping the public to understand the true facts of what occurs in court. The State believes, however, that those ends can be accomplished without the need for camera/video images, or the physical presence of cameras in the courtroom.

Based on the above, the State is concerned that allowing the presence of cameras in the courtroom will have a substantial chilling effect on the ability of witnesses to openly, fully and candidly testify about some horrible occurrences. In addition, the State has a responsibility to take steps to ensure a fair trial for all involved.

Judge Boyce's decision in Vallow Daybell, attached to the State's June 6, 2023, Brief on Video and Photographic Coverage, provides a thorough examination of the issues before the Court. The State reiterates those same concerns, including the issue of jurors accessing the broadcasts and seeing evidence which has not been put in front of them and witnesses potentially viewing the broadcasted testimony of prior witnesses.

The State respectfully submits that the appropriate course of action would be for the court to prohibit cameras in the courtroom, both still and video, at a minimum during trial and during any other court proceedings at which victims such as described above might be called to testify.

RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED this 6th day of September, 2023

William W. Thompson, Jr.
Prosecuting Attorney

 

[girlhasnoname]

Hearing this week (Wednesday, September 13) on defense's Motion to Remove Cameras from the Courtroom. Below is the State's response to the Defense's Motion to Remove Cameras from the Courtroom, dated Septembe 6th, not sure if has already been posted. Seems the State and Defense both agree that cameras should be banned from the courtroom. It will be interesting to see what the Judge decides.
------------------------------------------------------------

STATE OF IDAHO, Plaintiff, V. BRYAN C. KOHBERGER Defendant. Case No. CR29-22-2805 STATE'S RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT'S "MOTION TO REMOVE CAMERAS FROM THE COURTROOM"

COMES NOW the State of Idaho, by and through the Latah County Prosecuting Attorney, and respectfully submits the following response to the Defendant's "Motion to Remove Cameras from the Courtroom" filed herein on August 24, 2023.

As the Court and the parties, including intervenors, are aware, this case has and continues to attract significant public and media attention involving not only traditional media, but also a broad range of social media-related posting, blogs, podcasts, and other disseminations, etc. This case also involves significant physical and emotional components not only by virtue of the nature of the killings themselves, but also by the myriad circumstances surrounding the victims, their associates, friends, family, the residents at 1122 King Road, and so forth.

This case will necessarily involve not only evidence of a graphic nature, but also testimony from a number of young and vulnerable witnesses. These include the surviving roommates of Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle, and also a number of University of Idaho coeds and families and friends. In addition to, and at least partially as a result of, the substantial traditional and social media coverage, certain witnesses have already been subjected to threats and harassment, including physical intrusions, directed at not only the witnesses and other University coeds, but their extended families and friends.

The State fully understands the enormous value that responsible media has in helping the public to understand the true facts of what occurs in court. The State believes, however, that those ends can be accomplished without the need for camera/video images, or the physical presence of cameras in the courtroom.

Based on the above, the State is concerned that allowing the presence of cameras in the courtroom will have a substantial chilling effect on the ability of witnesses to openly, fully and candidly testify about some horrible occurrences. In addition, the State has a responsibility to take steps to ensure a fair trial for all involved.

Judge Boyce's decision in Vallow Daybell, attached to the State's June 6, 2023, Brief on Video and Photographic Coverage, provides a thorough examination of the issues before the Court. The State reiterates those same concerns, including the issue of jurors accessing the broadcasts and seeing evidence which has not been put in front of them and witnesses potentially viewing the broadcasted testimony of prior witnesses.

The State respectfully submits that the appropriate course of action would be for the court to prohibit cameras in the courtroom, both still and video, at a minimum during trial and during any other court proceedings at which victims such as described above might be called to testify.

RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED this 6th day of September, 2023

William W. Thompson, Jr.
Prosecuting Attorney

Yes I will be curious as to how the Judge rules on this as well.

 

[TL4S]

Also homemade and commerical plate number obscuring products can be used to avid being identified.
Sprays, adhesive film amd scrubbing off the reflective coating on the plate prevent cameras from picking up the numbers.
Hope they got a hold of the old PA plate to see if this happened.

If it were me, I'd have stopped somewhere on the way and removed the plate, then afterwards, stopped somewhere to put it back on...

It's been noted previously that there was fog that morning, as well. He might have considered that as being in his favor.

 

[TL4S]

What's notable to me is that if you Google map the route he drove from King Rd back to Pullman, it says it's 1 hr 3 min. He did it in 1 hr 5 min. (4:20 - 5:25). He could have been speeding, but to me, there isn't a lot of time there for stopping anywhere to clean up or dispose of things. Jmo.

I also thinks this adds support to the vehicle seen exiting the crime scene area at 4:20 being the same as the vehicle seen in camera entering Pullman at 5:25 near Bishop Blvd. Jmo.

 

[Bogbacal2]

Great article about DNA and references trace/touch DNA.
Article details “mixture DNA” which I’ve wondered about in this case.
QUESTION (I haven’t slept in over 24 hours so please excuse the grammar!):The sheath was found ?under/side of MM so if blood/dna from both girls made contact with the sheath, and we know there is have touch DNA from BK, so hypothetically, if anyone else’s DNA had been found on the sheath, how hard would it have been to determine all of the mixtures?

DNA Mixtures: A Forensic Science Explainer

What are DNA mixtures? And why are they sometimes so difficult to interpret?

www.nist.gov

 

[Helechawagirl]

Why? Because he had... time...to kill.

Perhaps he thought he was just too early. Drove around to eat up time, let everyone fall asleep.

Jmo

Building up courage; running thru the scenario one last time; I’d like to think having second thoughts, but I don’t think he felt he had anything to lose at that point or felt confident he’d planned the perfect crime.

 

[kae27]

Absolutely the Defense will argue like crazy to keep as many gruesome photos out of the jury's eyes, but it's going to be hard to present a case of a quadruple murder without seeing some evidence of the scene and the position of the bodies.

There will be be some that will have to presented in order to argue the State's theory of the murder.

Completely agree. IMO photos of the location of the sheath certainly will be probative, which means at the very least that photos of Maddie will come into evidence. And as you say, position of the bodies will likely come into play for a variety of reasons, including to show how one person could slaughter four people so quickly.

I really feel for the people who become jurors here, as well as anyone else who has to be in the courtroom.

 

[Boxer]

Great article about DNA and references trace/touch DNA.
Article details “mixture DNA” which I’ve wondered about in this case.
QUESTION (I haven’t slept in over 24 hours so please excuse the grammar!):The sheath was found ?under/side of MM so if blood/dna from both girls made contact with the sheath, and we know there is have touch DNA from BK, so hypothetically, if anyone else’s DNA had been found on the sheath, how hard would it have been to determine all of the mixtures?

DNA Mixtures: A Forensic Science Explainer

What are DNA mixtures? And why are they sometimes so difficult to interpret?

www.nist.gov

Not hard anymore.

 

[Boxer]

Building up courage; running thru the scenario one last time; I’d like to think having second thoughts, but I don’t think he felt he had anything to lose at that point or felt confident he’d planned the perfect crime.

Probably both. The indecisive actions of the Elentra, looping around and making 3 point turns are MOO hestation stab wounds but in a car.