4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95

[katydid23]

It stands to reason that, new to the area and a confirmed vegan, BK might enquire of the MA's Greek whether they are truly vegan. No contact, dedicated pans, etc.

Now Mad Greek personnel were pointed that BK has never been served... two of their employees are dead, unable to recall whether they encountered BK.

I think it's entirely possible BK lurked at the Mad Greek, if not inside, outside. In the lot, waiting for waitresses. I think BK encountered X or M or X & M at the Mad Greek, even asking his awkward (creepy) question, "where do you live?" And following the likely brush-off (he would see it as rejection, women see it as self-protection, spidey sense), how easy for him to tail her home....

Even if a waitress where friendly about it, he'd probably perceive that wrong too IMO.

I'm curious about those twelve trips into Moscow... do any align with closing time at the Mad Greek? M or X might have had a stalker without ever even knowing...

There's always a nexus. IMO it's going to be the Mad Greek, and the nighttime road prowler following a waitress home....

JMO

Yes, I think it's quite possible he ate there, or even just picked up TO GO orders. My daughters are vegans and they know every restaurant in their area that offers Vegan Friendly meals.

I had a hard time believing the owner/manager swearing that BK NEVER ate in his restaurant. He couldn't possibly know that. There is no way he has been out on the floor looking at every single customer. He says he asked his employees---AGAIN, there is no way that they can say for certain that BK was never inside.

BK is good at staying in the background if he wants to be. There's no reason that anyone would remember him a year later if all he did was order lettuce wraps and pay in cash as he slipped out.

 

[MeadowMuffin]

Yes, I think it's quite possible he ate there, or even just picked up TO GO orders. My daughters are vegans and they know every restaurant in their area that offers Vegan Friendly meals.

I had a hard time believing the owner/manager swearing that BK NEVER ate in his restaurant. He couldn't possibly know that. There is no way he has been out on the floor looking at every single customer. He says he asked his employees---AGAIN, there is no way that they can say for certain that BK was never inside.

BK is good at staying in the background if he wants to be. There's no reason that anyone would remember him a year later if all he did was order lettuce wraps and pay in cash as he slipped out.

Blum explains his thoughts on how BK and MM's paths crossed; beginning at about 14:20.
Video of Howard Blum from Forbes

 

[Balthazar]

I just now ordered Howard Blum's book and still to read it, but I understand he believes that Maddie was the target. If so, does he offer possible motives and how he arrived at that conclusion?

His reasoning Maddie was the target is only that the killer went to her room first. Of course, none of us were there or saw what happened, so IMO, it is conjecture.

 

[Tealgrove]

His reasoning Maddie was the target is only that the killer went to her room first. Of course, none of us were there or saw what happened, so IMO, it is conjecture.

Based on a witness account of what she saw and heard I don’t believe it’s conjecture.

The witness noted the noises coming from upstairs. She thought Maddie and Kayley were playing with the dog. That was the first indication that something was going on.

Xana was awake and had just received her food order. Her room was on the same level as the witness. The witness describes hearing crying/whimpering AFTER the noise above and sees the killer from her doorway on her level of the house.

Based on the witness account, the first sign of trouble came from upstairs. Whether it was Maddie or Kayley that was targeted we don’t know. We can hypothesize that Maddie was targeted vs Kayley but who knows.

MOO

 

[Inthedetails]

Based on a witness account of what she saw and heard I don’t believe it’s conjecture.

The witness noted the noises coming from upstairs. She thought Maddie and Kayley were playing with the dog. That was the first indication that something was going on.

Xana was awake and had just received her food order. Her room was on the same level as the witness. The witness describes hearing crying/whimpering AFTER the noise above and sees the killer from her doorway on her level of the house.

Based on the witness account, the first sign of trouble came from upstairs. Whether it was Maddie or Kayley that was targeted we don’t know. We can hypothesize that Maddie was targeted vs Kayley but who knows.

MOO

Just thought of something. If the witness heard the commotion upstairs, it's possible Xana and Ethan did too. Did Ethan go up there and the commotion was a fight between the two men, before Ethan went to protect Xana and get out of the rampage himself (only that didn't work)? "I'm here to help you" was Ethan.

I know that's not a perfect scenario but there might have been more commotion in the house other than BK sneaking around unnoticed.

idk

jmo

 

[Bahshudc]

Just thought of something. If the witness heard the commotion upstairs, it's possible Xana and Ethan did too. Did Ethan go up there and the commotion was a fight between the two men, before Ethan went to protect Xana and get out of the rampage himself (only that didn't work)? "I'm here to help you" was Ethan.

I know that's not a perfect scenario but there might have been more commotion in the house other than BK sneaking around unnoticed.

idk

jmo

I think this is plausible. Ive thought this from the beginning of this case. I know it was a party house, but there are still boundaries between roommates. There’s a difference between a party house at university, and a house where anyone can walk in without anyone else’s permission. I feel strongly that these girls cared about each other, and they cared about their classes and university. This is why I always felt they would ASK each other before having a party. Even if it’s just a message in a group chat. Perhaps not if they were having one guy round, but I don’t think any of the girls would have just organised a party without asking anyone else, regardless of classes in the morning or people wanting to sleep. It’s not respectful.

Long story short, I think all housemates were aware there was no party that night. They knew the commotion wasn’t a party. I can understand seeing one person and thinking KG or MM had a guy round, but it’s still strange as they’re sleeping in the same bed. All moo as I am a bit sick of people saying “it was a party house!!”

 

[Megnut]

I speculate that, at 4 am, everyone was asleep, except X and Murphy. (IMO dogs hear everything, he'd have heard X and the car/s and the door/s. Guessing he was also trained to accept A LOT of noise/commotion/people.)

I speculate that, because E was asleep, and everyone else, X was listening to TikTok by ear bud.

I speculate that D was awakened by some combination of doors/cars/Murphy/BK, who knows which sound worked into her slumber before it fully registered. IMO it's REALLY important to remember that, at the time, D was not TRYING to identify sounds, she's was trying to tune them OUT. She wanted to be ASLEEP. She wasn't categorizing, chronologizing, she was trying to get it to stop.

(Did we ever determine the locking mechanisms to the bedroom doors? Manual locks? Keypads? Automatic locks? Why does it matter? Implication. D, seeing BK, being scared, LOCKING HER DOOR carries an implication. Versus: D, about to lean out, was startled by a man RIGHT THERE, and closed her door, which then locked carries a different implication. And again, I think it's ESSENTIAL to stay in context: she was likely irritated by the racket and didn't expect ANYONE to be standing right there! No different IMO than if I go to leave my house and open the door, about to exit in one fluid motion, only to discover someone there, arm raised to knock. Double surprise. Just like BK would've been surprised by D if he had seen her. D is alive because she had a split second reaction time, one that helped her stop on the dime, without opening the door wider, calling out whatever she might have been planning to call out, or even vocalizing her startledness. Again, important to remember, she was startled (the same adrenaline response as shoched/frightened) to see someone who was right there, and saw that he was LEAVING-- I doubt it occurred to her even a little that he was a burglar, rapist or murderer! So many people want to ascribe blame to her for not calling 911, but I will continue to assert that D didn't know, couldn't have known that a brutal CRIME had occurred. All was quiet after that. And she fell back to sleep. No mystery. No intrigue.

I wish for myself I could pin down who said someone is here. D knows her friends, knows the layout so if she thinks K said it, maybe K did. Maybe Murphy did react to X and Doordash, maybe that's when K moved Murphy to her bedroom, maybe she looked out a window and saw one of two cars, maybe said it to Murphy or to a sleeping M, there's someone here. Not a warning as much as an explanation.

Or maybe X said it, to E. And BK heard her. I'm guessing still that X's own hearing was compromised by ear buds so, even though BK may have have heard her, she might not have heard him, st all. SHE may have NOTICED the slider being open, when it hadn't been, just moments ago.

Within about ten minutes time, D opened her door three times, only once to something of interest. It's really unbelievable (yet true) that she didn't witness more, considering what was actually happening during those compressed minutes.

FWIW I think that BK managed to overtake X before she even realized he was there. Possibly from behind, possibly with his knife to her neck. "I'm here to help you" meaning it'll be worse for you if you don't comply. Whimper.

I don't know how he encountered E but he may have had to let go of X momentarily to drop E, the bigger threat. Stepped over E to get to X who would have had nowhere to go. Those small rooms were ALL BED.

Long answer, but if I were D, I would need lifelong therapy to deal with, equally terrifying, sounds and silence. The sounds she heard, IMO nothing you'd associate with four slayings, and the silence afterwards? It was silence she sought in the first place, but not THAT KIND of silence. Dead silence.

Exactly how it sounds when everyone is asleep.

JMO

 

[Bahshudc]

I speculate that, at 4 am, everyone was asleep, except X and Murphy. (IMO dogs hear everything, he'd have heard X and the car/s and the door/s. Guessing he was also trained to accept A LOT of noise/commotion/people.)

I speculate that, because E was asleep, and everyone else, X was listening to TikTok by ear bud.

I speculate that D was awakened by some combination of doors/cars/Murphy/BK, who knows which sound worked into her slumber before it fully registered. IMO it's REALLY important to remember that, at the time, D was not TRYING to identify sounds, she's was trying to tune them OUT. She wanted to be ASLEEP. She wasn't categorizing, chronologizing, she was trying to get it to stop.

(Did we ever determine the locking mechanisms to the bedroom doors? Manual locks? Keypads? Automatic locks? Why does it matter? Implication. D, seeing BK, being scared, LOCKING HER DOOR carries an implication. Versus: D, about to lean out, was startled by a man RIGHT THERE, and closed her door, which then locked carries a different implication. And again, I think it's ESSENTIAL to stay in context: she was likely irritated by the racket and didn't expect ANYONE to be standing right there! No different IMO than if I go to leave my house and open the door, about to exit in one fluid motion, only to discover someone there, arm raised to knock. Double surprise. Just like BK would've been surprised by D if he had seen her. D is alive because she had a split second reaction time, one that helped her stop on the dime, without opening the door wider, calling out whatever she might have been planning to call out, or even vocalizing her startledness. Again, important to remember, she was startled (the same adrenaline response as shoched/frightened) to see someone who was right there, and saw that he was LEAVING-- I doubt it occurred to her even a little that he was a burglar, rapist or murderer! So many people want to ascribe blame to her for not calling 911, but I will continue to assert that D didn't know, couldn't have known that a brutal CRIME had occurred. All was quiet after that. And she fell back to sleep. No mystery. No intrigue.

I wish for myself I could pin down who said someone is here. D knows her friends, knows the layout so if she thinks K said it, maybe K did. Maybe Murphy did react to X and Doordash, maybe that's when K moved Murphy to her bedroom, maybe she looked out a window and saw one of two cars, maybe said it to Murphy or to a sleeping M, there's someone here. Not a warning as much as an explanation.

Or maybe X said it, to E. And BK heard her. I'm guessing still that X's own hearing was compromised by ear buds so, even though BK may have have heard her, she might not have heard him, st all. SHE may have NOTICED the slider being open, when it hadn't been, just moments ago.

Within about ten minutes time, D opened her door three times, only once to something of interest. It's really unbelievable (yet true) that she didn't witness more, considering what was actually happening during those compressed minutes.

FWIW I think that BK managed to overtake X before she even realized he was there. Possibly from behind, possibly with his knife to her neck. "I'm here to help you" meaning it'll be worse for you if you don't comply. Whimper.

I don't know how he encountered E but he may have had to let go of X momentarily to drop E, the bigger threat. Stepped over E to get to X who would have had nowhere to go. Those small rooms were ALL BED.

Long answer, but if I were D, I would need lifelong therapy to deal with, equally terrifying, sounds and silence. The sounds she heard, IMO nothing you'd associate with four slayings, and the silence afterwards? It was silence she sought in the first place, but not THAT KIND of silence. Dead silence.

Exactly how it sounds when everyone is asleep.

JMO

Oh, I totally agree with all of this. To clarify I didn’t mean to sound like I was blaming anybody in my post, it was to show that regardless of why Dylan didn’t hear loads of noise (sleep, earbuds, etc), I think it’s likely she didn’t think it was a party and determined something else was going on - however, still not anything nefarious at this point. Probably an insignificant point but Dylan sleeping is a perfectly justified reason she didn’t hear much. I sleep like a log.
Moo.

 

[Megnut]

There are some who think one person couldn't have accomplished all the destruction so quickly, but I fear that the facts of this case might instead show just how loooooooooong ten minutes can be.

I don't think BK was motivated or limited in any way by fear. Even his interpretation of thrill might look very different, I happen to think he DELIGHTS in the legal wrangling because it's all on his behalf. Like a smorgasbord of attention ...

i think he was actually driven by rage, something he tired if trying to manage. And, if M was his singular target, where she'd been alone with everyone else asleep, we don't know how long he planned to stay. 30 seconds. 3 hours. Two points of egress, sliding door, upper balcony

IMO K's presence was unexpected and that made him angrier still. Again, I think we'll be horrified to learn the extent of K's injuries and the amount of time he spent inflicting them. Clocks stop. 4 minutes is forever Then a fast exit except that X was awake. Another two, three, four minutes.

He had motive (his own, whatever it was), he had confidence, IMO he had training and preparation, and he had a knife. Gave himself every advantage.

Dark ninja.

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

There are some who think one person couldn't have accomplished all the destruction so quickly, but I fear that the facts of this case might instead show just how loooooooooong ten minutes can be.

I don't think BK was motivated or limited in any way by fear. Even his interpretation of thrill might look very different, I happen to think he DELIGHTS in the legal wrangling because it's all on his behalf. Like a smorgasbord of attention ...

i think he was actually driven by rage, something he tired if trying to manage. And, if M was his singular target, where she'd been alone with everyone else asleep, we don't know how long he planned to stay. 30 seconds. 3 hours. Two points of egress, sliding door, upper balcony

IMO K's presence was unexpected and that made him angrier still. Again, I think we'll be horrified to learn the extent of K's injuries and the amount of time he spent inflicting them. Clocks stop. 4 minutes is forever Then a fast exit except that X was awake. Another two, three, four minutes.

He had motive (his own, whatever it was), he had confidence, IMO he had training and preparation, and he had a knife. Gave himself every advantage.

Dark ninja.

JMO

So the people who believe BK had an accomplice because he needed help killing, do they not remember what Ted Bundy did?

He had no help when he went into a girls' college dormitory under the cover of darkness and both assaulted and bashed 4 girls with firewood while they were sleeping in bed. He left 2 dead and 2 severly injured, one with permanent hearing loss. Just like with Moscow, there were other girls untouched.

I believe BK was not targeting 4 students that night, I think he had a diabolical plan in mind for when he got MM alone in her room. I think he fantasized a long time about having MM all to himself,
alone and under his control.

His plan spiralled out of control along with his hate and rage when he found that he could not get MM alone....So there goes all his plans.

"How dare" KG interfere with his plans ... "How dare" she fight back. You can see the rage, she had defensive wounds and was stabbed much more viciously - different from MM according to her parents.

I agree he was full of rage but also hate and revenge for preceived slights, perceived dismissal from attractive college aged women in general. I suspect he specifically liked how MMl ooked and that she represented other girls from his past.

2 Cents

 

[Gemmie]

"How dare" KG interfere with his plans ... "How dare" she fight back. You can see the rage, she had defensive wounds and was stabbed much more viciously - different from MM according to her parents.

I believe Kaylee's wounds were different because she was sleeping next to the wall which meant she was jolted awake with the killing of her friend sleeping next to her. She was found slumped in the corner. That tells me that Maddie was sleeping on the outside with Kaylee on the inside. Maddie was closest to the aisle so she was first.

The murder of Maddie woke Kaylee up. She was trapped as her mother said. Now she's awake, face-to-face with a raging maniac, with her friend lying dead or dying next to her, and with nowhere to run. Of COURSE she's going to fight back. So to me, that makes more sense that she was stabbed more viciously than Maddie. Maddie was an easy target (and first, IMO) because she was asleep. Sleeping people don't fight. She was easy pickings so it makes total sense that Kaylee had defensive wounds. She was wide awake when BK moved on to kill her next. And that's why her wounds were different than Maddie's. JMO

Kaylee in an upright sort of position - up in the corner - slumped. I mean she was trapped," she described. "The bed, the bed was the entire room. You could barely open up the door without swiping the foot of the bed

Kaylee Goncalves' parents share new details about how daughter killed in Idaho murders was found

The parents of Kaylee Goncalves sat down with ABC News for an exclusive interview, sharing new details of how she was found, as well as never-before-released images of her.

abc7chicago.com

 

[Cool Cats]

I believe Kaylee's wounds were different because she was sleeping next to the wall which meant she was jolted awake with the killing of her friend sleeping next to her. She was found slumped in the corner. That tells me that Maddie was sleeping on the outside with Kaylee on the inside. Maddie was closest to the aisle so she was first.

The murder of Maddie woke Kaylee up. She was trapped as her mother said. Now she's awake, face-to-face with a raging maniac, with her friend lying dead or dying next to her, and with nowhere to run. Of COURSE she's going to fight back. So to me, that makes more sense that she was stabbed more viciously than Maddie. Maddie was an easy target (and first, IMO) because she was asleep. Sleeping people don't fight. She was easy pickings so it makes total sense that Kaylee had defensive wounds. She was wide awake when BK moved on to kill her next. And that's why her wounds were different than Maddie's. JMO

Kaylee in an upright sort of position - up in the corner - slumped. I mean she was trapped," she described. "The bed, the bed was the entire room. You could barely open up the door without swiping the foot of the bed

Kaylee Goncalves' parents share new details about how daughter killed in Idaho murders was found

The parents of Kaylee Goncalves sat down with ABC News for an exclusive interview, sharing new details of how she was found, as well as never-before-released images of her.

abc7chicago.com

Rage...rage was part of the motive the OP thinks and so do I. I think rage towards young beautiful women he felt rejected by and MM possibly represented that to him.

I think he got in more of a rage when his plans didn't work out, KG's more vicious stab wounds could be from escalating rage. Also, as you say, from the fact she fought back and MM didn't.

Yes if you fight back you will get more wounded but the overkill is significant and overkill shows complete and total rage, revenge, hate...etc

Stabbing is considered personal and I believe BK made it about him, personal rejection against him, girls have no right....The Boondock Saints... senario... vigilante justice....I have a right.

2 Cents

 

[Gemmie]

Rage...rage was part of the motive the OP thinks and so do I. I think rage towards young beautiful women he felt rejected by and MM possibly represented that to him.

I think he got in more of a rage when his plans didn't work out, KG's more vicious stab wounds could be from escalating rage. Also, as you say, from the fact she fought back and MM didn't.

Yes if you fight back you will get more wounded but the overkill is significant and overkill shows complete and total rage, revenge, hate...etc

Stabbing is considered personal and I believe BK made it about him, personal rejection against him, girls have no right....The Boondock Saints... senario... vigilante justice....I have a right.

2 Cents

Yeah, not my theory.

 

[schooling]

20 second elevator rides with complete strangers are unusually long. Never mind 10 minutes with a weapon designed for killing inside of a house full of sleepy (and possibly inebriated MOO) people.

Also, worth reminding folks that if BK is capable of killing 4 people then your efforts to put yourself in his shoes are probably a waste of time. We could likely never ever understand what motivates a person like that.

MOO