4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95

[bluevioletfour]

This has really been bothering me: From everything I've ever read or heard, when there is a knife used to murder, even the person wielding the knife ends up with cuts due to the knife becoming slippery from blood. I've been wondering and wondering why Bryan K. didn't seem to exhibit any injuries. He was very meticulous in what he wore that night, maybe plastic in his car, etc... very methodical & well-planned out. Could it be that he also bought cut-resistant gloves that he wore that night? Some even have anti-slip characteristics! If you go to Amazon, you can find many listed with details on how they work. Thoughts from others?

 

[PinkParis2052]

DNA collected from suspect Bryan Kohberger a ‘statistical match’ for DNA on sheath of knife according to court documents​

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/21/us/bryan-kohberger-dna-match-idaho-killings-evidence/index.html

The DNA of Bryan Kohberger, is a “statistical match” to DNA collected from the sheath of a knife found at the scene, according to court documents filed by prosecutors. “The STR profile is at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be Kohberger.

An “STR” analysis – or short tandem repeat analysis – is a common type of DNA profiling in criminal cases and other types of forensic cases, according to the National Institute of Justice.

The FBI originally loaded the DNA profile from the knife sheath onto publicly available genealogy sites. Then the FBI went to work building family trees of the genetic relatives in an attempt to identify the sheath DNA and then LE sent a tip to investigate Kohberger, according to prosecutors.

Yeah, I heard about the 'Statistical match" for the DNA on the sheath. I heard about that the STR profile is at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be the suspect. I understand that the FBI created a family tree from a SNP profile and LE got a tip from the FBI to look into the suspect.

I've read
1. State's Motion to for a protective order
2. Objection to the State's Motion for the Protective Order
3. Reply in Support of Motion for Protective Order
4. Affidavit of Ryleen Nowlin - Idaho State Forensic Lab
5. Affidavit of Leah Larkin Support of Defendant's Third Motion to Compel
6. Gabriella Vargas's Declaration in Support of Third Motion to Compel
7. Anne Taylor's Declaration in support of Third motion to compel
8. Stephen B Mercer's Declaration in support of Third Motion to Compel
9. Bicka Barlow's Declaration in support of Third Motion to Compel
10. I watched the IGG Hearing on Nov 2, 2023.

I need to go and watch the testimonies of Bicka Barlow, Stephen Mercer, Leah Larkin and Gabriela Vargas. I'll do that this week.

 

[iamshadow21]

This has really been bothering me: From everything I've ever read or heard, when there is a knife used to murder, even the person wielding the knife ends up with cuts due to the knife becoming slippery from blood. I've been wondering and wondering why Bryan K. didn't seem to exhibit any injuries. He was very meticulous in what he wore that night, maybe plastic in his car, etc... very methodical & well-planned out. Could it be that he also bought cut-resistant gloves that he wore that night? Some even have anti-slip characteristics! If you go to Amazon, you can find many listed with details on how they work. Thoughts from others?

The knife allegedly used in this crime was a combat knife. It has a textured, slip resistant handle and a hilt which physically stops the hand from slipping up onto the cutting edge.

Ka-Bar - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That doesn't mean it's impossible to cut yourself, especially when attacking multiple victims in the dark, but it makes it far less likely than if you just picked up any old kitchen knife, which generally has a smooth handle and no cross guard.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

Just playing Devil's Advocate: I agree, if it is a bare-handed transfer, we would expect the lab to find both people's DNA, but IF someone transfers DNA while wearing gloves and their DNA was not on the outside of the gloves they are wearing, then I would not expect there to be a mix. I would only expect the transfer DNA.

So the guy puts gloves on for this murder and THEN he touches BK and gets BK's skin cells on his glove and then immediately goes and opens the knife sheath, leaving it on the bed?

So in this scenario, BK has to be pretty close by?

 

[Boxer]

This has really been bothering me: From everything I've ever read or heard, when there is a knife used to murder, even the person wielding the knife ends up with cuts due to the knife becoming slippery from blood. I've been wondering and wondering why Bryan K. didn't seem to exhibit any injuries. He was very meticulous in what he wore that night, maybe plastic in his car, etc... very methodical & well-planned out. Could it be that he also bought cut-resistant gloves that he wore that night? Some even have anti-slip characteristics! If you go to Amazon, you can find many listed with details on how they work. Thoughts from others?

The kbar is designed to kill humans with.
An assaillant with surprise, superior strength and knowlegde of delivering blows can keep control of the knife.

 

[whiterhino]

This has really been bothering me: From everything I've ever read or heard, when there is a knife used to murder, even the person wielding the knife ends up with cuts due to the knife becoming slippery from blood. I've been wondering and wondering why Bryan K. didn't seem to exhibit any injuries. He was very meticulous in what he wore that night, maybe plastic in his car, etc... very methodical & well-planned out. Could it be that he also bought cut-resistant gloves that he wore that night? Some even have anti-slip characteristics! If you go to Amazon, you can find many listed with details on how they work. Thoughts from others?

Along with what others have said about the knife and how to use it etc, BK could have also taped his hands/fingers under layers of gloves. I've heard of people putting bandages and tape over their fingers and then layering different types of gloves over top. Like a surgeon or a boxer, even some gardening gloves can be really heavy duty. As I'm writing this, I'm thinking BK could have stolen some of his supplies the same way GSSK did. JMO.

 

[whiterhino]

So the guy puts gloves on for this murder and THEN he touches BK and gets BK's skin cells on his glove and then immediately goes and opens the knife sheath, leaving it on the bed?

So in this scenario, BK has to be pretty close by?

Or the person put gloves on, got close to BK and put his DNA on the sheath and left it at the scene.

Except BK doesn't have a solid alibi placing him elsewhere so...?! It might be more plausible if BK had a proper alibi or had mentioned early on that he'd loaned his car out that night etc. But nope. Plus, his car returned to the scene later that morning.

MOO.

 

[Balthazar]

So the guy puts gloves on for this murder and THEN he touches BK and gets BK's skin cells on his glove and then immediately goes and opens the knife sheath, leaving it on the bed?

So in this scenario, BK has to be pretty close by?

No. He would get the skin cells off of some object that BK touched at some point.

"Four Indianapolis scientists recently questioned the reliability of the modern day high-sensitivity forensic lab technologies used by law enforcement to identify suspects via DNA. They explained that even though current technologies utilized by forensic laboratories are now reading DNA profiles from low-template and low-quality samples, they have "not been systematically investigated." The scientists published their findings in 2016, in the Journal of Forensic Science, under the heading: Could Secondary DNA Transfer Falsely Place Someone at the Scene of a Crime? Their answer was an unequivocal yes. Touch-transfer DNA "could falsely link someone to a crime" and forensic scientists relying on modern high-sensitivity equipment could "falsely conclude that DNA left on an object is a result of direct contact." Their findings revealed that it is impossible for scientists to determine whether the tiny bits of DNA came into contact with evidence from a direct source or via secondary source. And, that no matter how much they tried to sanitize their experiment, unknown third-party DNA was nonetheless able to make its way into the results, highlighting the plausibility of cross-contamination with touch-transfer DNA. "

Framed By Your Own Cells: How DNA Evidence Imprisons The Innocent

IMO, without something else to place BK inside 1122 King Rd., the DNA in this case is weak and can be easily used to generate reasonable doubt. So at trial, I will be looking for corroborating evidence from the prosecution that proves BK was inside that house such as:

footprint
fingerprint
handprint
his DNA elsewhere inside the house
identification of him by an eye witness
video evidence

 

[windrower]

But the sheath found at the crime hasn't been confirmed to be the sheath to the murder weapon because in the search warrant for Bryan's apartment LE listed that they were looking for a sheath.

Because maybe there were two knives? Because they didn’t have the murder weapon?

And they looked for a sheath at his apartment, because, at that early point of the investigation, they can’t know what they don’t know, and any piece of evidence could be very important.

Yeah I heard that too and people were surprised but, it's the court document that was written by the prosecution when they requested a protective order for the IGG DNA information June 2023. So it was "partially under both Madison's body and the comforter on the bed."

View attachment 519184

This is from the Washington State Search Warrant of Bryan's apartment written in Dec 2022 by Officer Blaker
View attachment 519172
and this was also in the Washington State Search warrant of Bryan's apartment too and he said that the sheath was on the bed next to Mogen's right side no mention of it being underneath one of the murdered victims.
View attachment 519171
I can't wait for the trial to hear more about where exactly the sheath was found at the crime scene.

I’m perplexed by some of the mental gymnastics used when considering the DNA/knife sheath/BK’s DNA found at the crime scene.

A knife sheath in the bed with a murdered girl.

I doubt that MM was in the habit of sleeping with a knife sheath.

Especially a knife sheath with BK’s DNA on it.

 

[Megnut]

This has really been bothering me: From everything I've ever read or heard, when there is a knife used to murder, even the person wielding the knife ends up with cuts due to the knife becoming slippery from blood. I've been wondering and wondering why Bryan K. didn't seem to exhibit any injuries. He was very meticulous in what he wore that night, maybe plastic in his car, etc... very methodical & well-planned out. Could it be that he also bought cut-resistant gloves that he wore that night? Some even have anti-slip characteristics! If you go to Amazon, you can find many listed with details on how they work. Thoughts from others?

As others have said, the knife was designed to kill efficiently, the hilt is protective...

What interests me is:

Exiting M's bedroom, he must have been holding the knife and may have been unaware he left the sheath behind.

We don't know how or where he encountered X or E and who startled whom. But it seems like he might have had the knife wielded defensively.... then exiting X's room, he must still have been carrying it....

Then two things happened IMO.

Seeing D registered late to him and he realized he'd been made, and reaching his car, he had to realize he had no sheath... couldn't go back for it because of D... beat a fast retreat, speeding away... and took a circuitous route, expecting lights and sirens behind him.

Perhaps he only re-engaged his phone once he felt he escaped tail and rid himself of his evidence.

JMO

 

[pseudo_hum]

As others have said, the knife was designed to kill efficiently, the hilt is protective...

What interests me is:

Exiting M's bedroom, he must have been holding the knife and may have been unaware he left the sheath behind.

We don't know how or where he encountered X or E and who startled whom. But it seems like he might have had the knife wielded defensively.... then exiting X's room, he must still have been carrying it....

Then two things happened IMO.

Seeing D registered late to him and he realized he'd been made, and reaching his car, he had to realize he had no sheath... couldn't go back for it because of D... beat a fast retreat, speeding away... and took a circuitous route, expecting lights and sirens behind him.

Perhaps he only re-engaged his phone once he felt he escaped tail and rid himself of his evidence.

JMO

Thanks Meg, very much agree.
IMO, He was completing his first encounter when he heard X exclaim that someone was here. Which interrupted his "train" of thought. His fishing fillet experience would allow him the opportunity to know about the "fishing fillet glove" which prevents self cuts. He possibly could have taken advantage of this.

 

[Megnut]

Thanks Meg, very much agree.
IMO, He was completing his first encounter when he heard X exclaim that someone was here. Which interrupted his "train" of thought. His fishing fillet experience would allow him the opportunity to know about the "fishing fillet glove" which prevents self cuts. He possibly could have taken advantage of this.

The crime seems to be a peculiar mix of preparedness and chaos.

Whatever his mission, THAT NIGHT he didn't abort. Wasn't detered by the police presence around his apartment, wasn't detered by the fog, wasn't detered by having his phone along, but something slowed him up once he got in the vicinity... made several passes. Whatever held him back didn't ultimately deter him.

I do think he mentally planned for quite some time. Had a murder weapon, had a target, ran reconnaissance. May have doctored his vehicle -- messed with the license plate -- lined the interior -- assembled a kill kit -- weapon/s, sheath/s, gloves, mask, overalls, etc.

I think D may have been right, that it WAS K who said they're was someone there -- perhaps Murphy reacted to the door dash delivery or to BK, and K moved to quiet him before he might start to bark, waking everyone up. Puts Murphy in her room, climbs up and over M who is 98% asleep, and yells her 'there's sometime here' -- not in alarm, by way of explaining Murphy stirring. Nothing to worry about, just someone's here.

Even possible that more was said, of which D only heard the part: there's someone here, but it's ok -- he (door dash) drove away.

If all the bedrooms had locks, why wasn't M's door locked? Why did BK assume he could get past locked doors?

Hot prowler? Was BK an accomplished lockpicker? DID he pick a lock?

With all his planning, it would seem he failed fullbore to account for moving parts, namely the movements of people within the house. Dynamic environment... IMO he simply failed to anticipate double occupancy in M's bed, awake subjects within the home. 4 am may have seemed like a safe bet....

One wonders what stopped him from entering on the previous passes...

All his countermeasures for naught when he left his DNA on the bed (in the snap well of his Kbar sheath)...

So maybe he was wearing fillet gloves and that's why he was able to leave the house without realizing he had no sheath, he was double-protected, by hilt and glove.

Or... BK brought backup. TWO Kbar knives, TWO sheaths -- and left the house with two knives holstered in one sheath.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

No. He would get the skin cells off of some object that BK touched at some point.

Ok, if you are about to go break into a house, when exactly do you put your gloves on? I'd think you'd do so right before you went inside. Maybe on the drive over too?

When did he touch an object that was full of BK's DNA. It wouldn't have been just a slight touch a long time earlier, because if all it takes is a slight touch, with an object that BK only quickly touched, then the killer would have a lot more random touch DNA on that sheath.

"Four Indianapolis scientists recently questioned the reliability of the modern day high-sensitivity forensic lab technologies used by law enforcement to identify suspects via DNA. They explained that even though current technologies utilized by forensic laboratories are now reading DNA profiles from low-template and low-quality samples, they have "not been systematically investigated." The scientists published their findings in 2016, in the Journal of Forensic Science, under the heading: Could Secondary DNA Transfer Falsely Place Someone at the Scene of a Crime? Their answer was an unequivocal yes. Touch-transfer DNA "could falsely link someone to a crime" and forensic scientists relying on modern high-sensitivity equipment could "falsely conclude that DNA left on an object is a result of direct contact." Their findings revealed that it is impossible for scientists to determine whether the tiny bits of DNA came into contact with evidence from a direct source or via secondary source. And, that no matter how much they tried to sanitize their experiment, unknown third-party DNA was nonetheless able to make its way into the results, highlighting the plausibility of cross-contamination with touch-transfer DNA. "

Framed By Your Own Cells: How DNA Evidence Imprisons The Innocent

If that^^^ was all true, then everything tested would have dozens of other people's DNA left behind on it.

IMO, without something else to place BK inside 1122 King Rd., the DNA in this case is weak and can be easily used to generate reasonable doubt. So at trial, I will be looking for corroborating evidence from the prosecution that proves BK was inside that house such as:

footprint
fingerprint
handprint
his DNA elsewhere inside the house
identification of him by an eye witness
video evidence

 

[katydid23]

As others have said, the knife was designed to kill efficiently, the hilt is protective...

What interests me is:

Exiting M's bedroom, he must have been holding the knife and may have been unaware he left the sheath behind.

We don't know how or where he encountered X or E and who startled whom. But it seems like he might have had the knife wielded defensively.... then exiting X's room, he must still have been carrying it....

I'd think he'd still be carrying it in case he ran into a problem with someone. But the surviving witness didn't see a knife, so who knows?

Then two things happened IMO.

Seeing D registered late to him and he realized he'd been made, and reaching his car, he had to realize he had no sheath... couldn't go back for it because of D... beat a fast retreat, speeding away... and took a circuitous route, expecting lights and sirens behind him.

Perhaps he only re-engaged his phone once he felt he escaped tail and rid himself of his evidence.

JMO

 

[PinkParis2052]

Ok, if you are about to go break into a house, when exactly do you put your gloves on? I'd think you'd do so right before you went inside. Maybe on the drive over too?

When did he touch an object that was full of BK's DNA. It wouldn't have been just a slight touch a long time earlier, because if all it takes is a slight touch, with an object that BK only quickly touched, then the killer would have a lot more random touch DNA on that sheath.




If that^^^ was all true, then everything tested would have dozens of other people's DNA left behind on it.

I thought that DNA profile was just a partial profile and not a full profile that Idaho State Lab found?

I thought they only looked for DNA near the victim's bodies and then worked outwards from there?

 

[wendy44]

The Dateline episode on NBC alleged that investigators had evidence BK bought a knife and sheath from Amazon in the Spring of 2022. IF that's true, it would make sense to include the sheath in the search warrant, even though they found one at the scene. They would need to know if the one purchased on Amazon was actually in his possession and not left at the scene.

On a side note, if they do have evidence the knife and sheath were purchased on Amazon by BK, there's no logical explanation a jury could believe that his dna ended up there by some other means. It couldn't be argued he saw it in a local shop and touched it while considering purchasing it or that he never owned one and it was planted.
IMO

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

States that collect DNA at arrest.
Idaho is not one.

Figure 1. States That Have Enacted Arrestee DNA Collection Laws in the United States

From the article "Collecting DNA From Arrestees: Implementation Lessons," June 14, 2012. Map charting which states have enabled arrestee DNA collection laws within the United States. Collection Criteria States that require a judicial determination of probable cause, warrant, formal indictment...

nij.ojp.gov

Good to know. Yet, can the LE make a determination on scene and choose to collect DNA at arrest?

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

This has really been bothering me: From everything I've ever read or heard, when there is a knife used to murder, even the person wielding the knife ends up with cuts due to the knife becoming slippery from blood. I've been wondering and wondering why Bryan K. didn't seem to exhibit any injuries. He was very meticulous in what he wore that night, maybe plastic in his car, etc... very methodical & well-planned out. Could it be that he also bought cut-resistant gloves that he wore that night? Some even have anti-slip characteristics! If you go to Amazon, you can find many listed with details on how they work. Thoughts from others?

He took a lot of time planning this act before striking. He most assuredly prepared very well. Anything and everything is possible when investigating such a horrific crime in pursuit of the truth and justice.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

The kbar is designed to kill humans with.
An assaillant with surprise, superior strength and knowlegde of delivering blows can keep control of the knife.

Most likely in the same category as the Navy Seal knife which OJ Simpson used to slaughter Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

Along with what others have said about the knife and how to use it etc, BK could have also taped his hands/fingers under layers of gloves. I've heard of people putting bandages and tape over their fingers and then layering different types of gloves over top. Like a surgeon or a boxer, even some gardening gloves can be really heavy duty. As I'm writing this, I'm thinking BK could have stolen some of his supplies the same way GSSK did. JMO.

Absolutely. After all, most criminals commit GTA and use the stolen vehicle when planning to execute a bank robbery or theft. Crafty.