4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95

[Boxer]

Not that I think he's innocent or he's being framed, but DNA is not the equivalent to fingerprints. I could get your DNA and place it 1000 miles away from any place you've ever been or for that matter it could end up there coincidentally, like if you mailed a package to someone in another state, your DNA could be in another state that you've never been to. If there actually was fingerprint evidence of BK in the house, I think that would be stronger than this...especially since not all DNA evidence is equal, like if they specifically had a blood trail of his in or near the house that would be fingerprint-like, but if you've just got some random bits of DNA it doesn't necessarily establish he was in the house link a fingerprint would.

I don't think you could place a few dozen cells in a snap mechanism oitside of a lab.
MOO beyond a reasonable doubt the cells are what was left over from trying to clean the sheath.

 

[Balthazar]

One problem, though, is the cost to taxpayers. It's expensive to move a trial like this.

Honestly, going ahead and changing to Ada county may, in the end, be drastically cheaper than not making the change and this case going to appeal and retrial.

However, there will be a huge cost to the residents of Moscow if the trial is there. I lived in a city of 100,000 during an infamous national news murder trial and it was frustrating and difficult to say the least. Moscow is much smaller than where I lived with around 26,000 residents. They will experience heavy and slow traffic, full hotels, full short term rentals and full restaurants to the point that locals will have to stand in line for an hour or more to eat out, shortages and long lines in grocery stores, pharmacies, gas stations, and parking problems. In some cases, with this type of situation, the residents have to work from home because they can't get parking near their work and it takes so long to get to work due to traffic and even if they did make it to work, they can't eat out at lunch since it takes so long to get through lines at restaurants but all the single serving foods and bread at the grocery store will be wiped out. And there were some weird things that were wiped out as well, especially in the pharmacies. Unfortunately these infamous cases garner a kind of sideshow with both media and lots of true crime tourism type people coming to try to get a seat in the courtroom or protest or whatever. People who can't get into the courtroom will spend their spare time driving all over town to see significant locations in this case so the traffic will not be only before and after court. While Moscow will make some money from this, it's going to be extremely chaotic and unpleasant for the majority of residents. After my experience, if I lived in Moscow, I would want the trial to be moved or I would go on vacation for the duration of the trial, just to avoid the crowds and chaos that will ensue.

 

[Betty P]

Honestly, going ahead and changing to Ada county may, in the end, be drastically cheaper than not making the change and this case going to appeal and retrial.

However, there will be a huge cost to the residents of Moscow if the trial is there. I lived in a city of 100,000 during an infamous national news murder trial and it was frustrating and difficult to say the least. Moscow is much smaller than where I lived with around 26,000 residents. They will experience heavy and slow traffic, full hotels, full short term rentals and full restaurants to the point that locals will have to stand in line for an hour or more to eat out, shortages and long lines in grocery stores, pharmacies, gas stations, and parking problems. In some cases, with this type of situation, the residents have to work from home because they can't get parking near their work and it takes so long to get to work due to traffic and even if they did make it to work, they can't eat out at lunch since it takes so long to get through lines at restaurants but all the single serving foods and bread at the grocery store will be wiped out. And there were some weird things that were wiped out as well, especially in the pharmacies. Unfortunately these infamous cases garner a kind of sideshow with both media and lots of true crime tourism type people coming to try to get a seat in the courtroom or protest or whatever. People who can't get into the courtroom will spend their spare time driving all over town to see significant locations in this case so the traffic will not be only before and after court. While Moscow will make some money from this, it's going to be extremely chaotic and unpleasant for the majority of residents. After my experience, if I lived in Moscow, I would want the trial to be moved or I would go on vacation for the duration of the trial, just to avoid the crowds and chaos that will ensue.

Understood. Not sure about savings to the home county, though. Kohlberger and his attorney will keep appealing his case as long as there's money to pay the defense legal costs.

 

[Curiousobserver]

Not that I think he's innocent or he's being framed, but DNA is not the equivalent to fingerprints. I could get your DNA and place it 1000 miles away from any place you've ever been or for that matter it could end up there coincidentally, like if you mailed a package to someone in another state, your DNA could be in another state that you've never been to. If there actually was fingerprint evidence of BK in the house, I think that would be stronger than this...especially since not all DNA evidence is equal, like if they specifically had a blood trail of his in or near the house that would be fingerprint-like, but if you've just got some random bits of DNA it doesn't necessarily establish he was in the house link a fingerprint would.

Agree- and the DNA is the only thing we know of that links him to these crimes, without it, his driving around in the middle of the night is just a weird habit. He has no criminal history, no connection to the victims, lots of people own a white Elantra. The prosecution needs to be ready to thwart arguments like yours- this DNA only means he might have handled that knife at some point (but he could have also once owned it and sold it, looked at it in the store, it could have been stolen etc...).

 

[Justice101]

SR suggested that BKs phone might have been southwest of Moscow. MOO that is still consistent with his movements.

There is a gap of time from his heading east toward Moscow and appearing on Indian Hills Drive.
There is another gap from the exit from King Road and pinging south of Moscow near Blaine.

Yep, and the jury might see that as intentional deception.

 

[CKS]

He was driving east toward Moscow when his cell went off line, he was driving south and away from Moscow after the murders. His DNA on the sheath is equivalent to his fingerprints on the sheath. He has no alibi.

What SR is talking about, is finding some digital gaps where BK potentially "could" have been, and AT will say that is where he was.

Is your first sentence based on the PCA? If so, isn't that whay Payne did? Find where BK potentially 'could' have been?

Touch DNA is not the same as a fingerprint. Touch DNA can be transferred from object to object. Maybe I'm wrong but you can't transfer someone else's fingerprint can you?



MOO

 

[CKS]

My thoughts are that SR is going to show evidence of BK's cell phone pinging miles away during the killings. So, AT is asking if the State has any digital evidence to the contrary. So far, they haven't produced any.

Of course, that could be explained by BK leaving his phone somewhere else intentionally—for just that reason.

I think DNA is the State's best evidence, but we've already heard some of the problems with touch DNA and how it can transfer without the person having handled the object. I wish it were blood or bodily fluid DNA.

So, while I think BK is guilty--I don't think this will be a slam-dunk for the prosecution.

MOO

MOO

Let's be honest, the touch DNA is the only evidence they have provided so far that links BK to the crime. Without that they have nothing unfortunately.

MOO

 

[Betty P]

MOO

Let's be honest, the touch DNA is the only evidence they have provided so far that links BK to the crime. Without that they have nothing unfortunately.

MOO

I found the tracking and video of him driving around, in front of and behind the murder house exactly at the time the murders occurred to be very convincing evidence. Unless someone else stole his car that night and drove it from his neighborhood to the crime scene during the murders, it looks pretty bad for him. Even worse, his DNA was found on the murder weapon sheath, at the crime scene. Don't forget the roommate giving a partial description of him inside the house during the murders.

Idaho murders: Roommate saw killer in mask leaving the house, docs say

Bryan Kohberger, the 28-year-old suspect in the University of Idaho murders, has arrived back in Idaho to face charges.

abcnews.go.com

IIRC, the DNA was retrieved from the knife sheath before Kohberger's DNA was tested back in PA near his parents home. No lab cross contamination. The two samples were retrieved and tested in labs on opposite sides of the country.

ETA: I know its subjective, but I recently watched Gray Hughes analysis of the videos of the killer's car driving around the death scene. Very obvious what he was doing. The timing is spot on with the beginning and end of the murders. Very unsettling to watch.

 

[NCWatcher]

I found the tracking and video of him driving around, in front of and behind the murder house exactly at the time the murders occurred to be very convincing evidence. Unless someone else stole his car that night and drove it from his neighborhood to the crime scene during the murders, it looks pretty bad for him. Even worse, his DNA was found on the murder weapon, at the crime scene. Don't forget the roommate identifying him inside the house.

BBM

Perhaps I missed something but I don't believe there is evidence proving the white car seen on various videos was necessarily his car. I also don't believe the roommate identified him inside the house or anywhere else. Her supposed identification (athletic, bushy eyebrows) may not rule him out but is not an identification. Those descriptors likely fit lots of men.
MOO

 

[Betty P]

BBM

Perhaps I missed something but I don't believe there is evidence proving the white car seen on various videos was necessarily his car. I also don't believe the roommate identified him inside the house or anywhere else. Her supposed identification (athletic, bushy eyebrows) may not rule him out but is not an identification. Those descriptors likely fit lots of men.
MOO

I think the cell phone data, combined with the surveillance video will help identify it as his car. Combined with the DNA, its difficult to imagine it was all a coincidence and that someone who had the same car and was using a cell phone in the same area at the same time and who had a sample of Kohlberg's DNA went to Moscow and murdered those kids while planting Kohlberg's DNA on a knife sheath at the crime scene.

Yes, he was wearing a mask at the scene, but the roommate gave a good description of height build and upper facial features that fit.

 

[NCWatcher]

I think the cell phone data, combined with the surveillance video will help identify it as his car. Combined with the DNA, its difficult to imagine it was all a coincidence and that someone who had the same car and was using a cell phone in the same area at the same time and who had a sample of Kohlberg's DNA went to Moscow and murdered those kids while planting Kohlberg's DNA on a knife sheath at the crime scene.

Yes, he was wearing a mask at the scene, but the roommate gave a good description of height build and upper facial features that fit.

I think it may be possible for jurors to infer it was probably his car based on other kinds of evidence. But that's a bit different from having video evidence of him "driving around" that the jury will be shown. And not being able to imagine who else could have done it isn't enough IMO to convict.

I have less faith in the "identification" of a masked figure in the dark by a witness who said she saw the figure briefly and was in a "frozen shock phase," immediately locking her bedroom door. The height estimated (5'10") is not terribly unusual for an American man. I'm not sure what she meant by "athletically built" unless she meant "not fat." I expect that descriptor fits a number of men too. So we'll see.
MOO

 

[CKS]

I think the cell phone data, combined with the surveillance video will help identify it as his car. Combined with the DNA, its difficult to imagine it was all a coincidence and that someone who had the same car and was using a cell phone in the same area at the same time and who had a sample of Kohlberg's DNA went to Moscow and murdered those kids while planting Kohlberg's DNA on a knife sheath at the crime scene.

Yes, he was wearing a mask at the scene, but the roommate gave a good description of height build and upper facial features that fit.

MOO

Except the cell phone data as of now definitely does not prove anything towards him being anywhere near the house at the time of the crime. The latest footnote they added basically just says he was in the vicinity of one of the towers which he literally can connect to from his apartment.

There literally is no surveillance video that shows his car with his plates or him driving the vehicle.

The features in the PCA of the description are so vague you could potentially say that was just about any male. The description was not good in my opinion whatsoever.

IMO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

BBM

Perhaps I missed something but I don't believe there is evidence proving the white car seen on various videos was necessarily his car. I also don't believe the roommate identified him inside the house or anywhere else. Her supposed identification (athletic, bushy eyebrows) may not rule him out but is not an identification. Those descriptors likely fit lots of men.
MOO

I agree, those descriptors fit lots of men, especially in a college town. You're also right that there has been no definitive proof that's his car. It was a white Elantra, the dates of which they changed. Originally, they said it was a 2011-2013 white Elantra, then (I believe after ID'ing Kohberger as a POI) they changed it and said it could be 2011-2016. BK's Elantra is a 2015. The original goof will come up, I expect.

The DNA is the strongest evidence they have.

MOO.

 

[Betty P]

MOO

Except the cell phone data as of now definitely does not prove anything towards him being anywhere near the house at the time of the crime. The latest footnote they added basically just says he was in the vicinity of one of the towers which he literally can connect to from his apartment.

There literally is no surveillance video that shows his car with his plates or him driving the vehicle.

The features in the PCA of the description are so vague you could potentially say that was just about any male. The description was not good in my opinion whatsoever.

IMO

No, we know the surveillance video doesn't show plates, but all of the evidence piled together - as I noted and can repeat - reveals it would be very difficult for a different killer to:
duplicate his car and its travels and
cell phone location, at the same time as the crime
his physical appearance,
all while obtaining a sample of his DNA and planting it at the crime scene.
It meets the "beyond a reasonable doubt" benchmark, JMO

While it might give some satisfaction if he's allowed to walk free, most people would be very upset that so many people will be put at risk of becoming his next victims. We have a responsibility to the public to make sure people like Kohberg are locked away, unable to victimize innocent people again.

 

[windrower]

I agree, those descriptors fit lots of men, especially in a college town. You're also right that there has been no definitive proof that's his car. It was a white Elantra, the dates of which they changed. Originally, they said it was a 2011-2013 white Elantra, then (I believe after ID'ing Kohberger as a POI) they changed it and said it could be 2011-2016. BK's Elantra is a 2015. The original goof will come up, I expect.

The DNA is the strongest evidence they have.

MOO.

Bbm

I’m not sure why the change in years of the white car is a problem for people. Or considered a “goof.”

LE thought the car was within certain years, and when they knew more, or had better information, the years were changed.

Isn’t that how investigations are run? Different leads and information take investigators down different paths.

IMO

 

[Betty P]

The bolded is 100% correct. Science proves this. They can logically want to block things out, but you can't just choose to shut off traumatic emotions. So I guess the question comes down to, do we believe this was a community trauma? And if so, then change of venue is not only appropriate but necessary.

MOO

The judge hasn't refused to consider change of venue. He's only decided that the court should first try to seat a jury locally before exercising that option. That's typical for these kinds of trials these days. They try to seat a local jury first. If they have a difficult time finding jurors who state they can still be objective, then they look at change of venue, bringing in other jurors, etc.

 

[iamshadow21]

No, we know the surveillance video doesn't show plates, but all of the evidence piled together - as I noted and can repeat - reveals it would be very difficult for a different killer to:
duplicate his car and its travels and
cell phone location, at the same time as the crime
his physical appearance,
all while obtaining a sample of his DNA and planting it at the crime scene.
It meets the "beyond a reasonable doubt" benchmark, JMO

While it might give some satisfaction if he's allowed to walk free, most people would be very upset that so many people will be put at risk of becoming his next victims. We have a responsibility to the public to make sure people like Kohberg are locked away, unable to victimize innocent people again.

We also know the shoe size of the attacker, and the style of shoe.

In addition to what we know, there's also going to be a lot at trial that WE don't know right now, but that LE does.

We know there have been a bunch of warrants for digital evidence, not just for his phone, but for things like his online activity, purchases, etc. I believe the circumstantial evidence we know about from the PCA is going to be supported by a whole lot of circumstantial evidence from those sources.

Circumstantial evidence isn't weak or secondary, it is the bread and butter, the strong foundation, of most cases that result in success for the prosecution at trial.

MOO

 

[Betty P]

I think it may be possible for jurors to infer it was probably his car based on other kinds of evidence. But that's a bit different from having video evidence of him "driving around" that the jury will be shown. And not being able to imagine who else could have done it isn't enough IMO to convict.

I have less faith in the "identification" of a masked figure in the dark by a witness who said she saw the figure briefly and was in a "frozen shock phase," immediately locking her bedroom door. The height estimated (5'10") is not terribly unusual for an American man. I'm not sure what she meant by "athletically built" unless she meant "not fat." I expect that descriptor fits a number of men too. So we'll see.
MOO

Yes, the jury will weigh that evidence, as juries do. To be clear, no one here is saying that the evidence it was his car is irrefutable. I don't know why people arguing to set him free keep misunderstanding that part. It's ok, though. We can keep repeating the clarification as long as necessary.

 

[NCWatcher]

Yes, the jury will weight that evidence, as juries do. To be clear, no one here is saying that the evidence it was his car is irrefutable. I don't know why people arguing to set him free keep misunderstanding that part. It's ok, though. We can keep repeating the clarification as long as necessary.

My posts have nothing to do with setting anyone free.

It seemed to me your post that I quoted at 2:17 said there was video of him driving near the house at the time of the murder and also said the roommate identified him as being in the house that night. Perhaps that's not what you meant to say as I see you've since edited that post and modified those claims. But neither statement of the evidence in your original post was factually true IMO. It wasn't a matter of needing clarification. That's why I posted, not to "set him free."

Yes, I agree the jury will weigh the evidence.
MOO

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Yes, the jury will weight that evidence, as juries do. To be clear, no one here is saying that the evidence it was his car is irrefutable. I don't know why people arguing to set him free keep misunderstanding that part. It's ok, though. We can keep repeating the clarification as long as necessary.

Yes Betty P….. thank you for that reminder! Reflecting on multiple episodes of The First 48, Dateline, 20/20, 48 Hours, etc….. in cases of CCTV or video of a vehicle traversing near a crime scene - it is rare that the actual license plate itself is seen. And even a much less chance it is visible or readable.

Maybe if one is lucky, there might be other vehicle or evidence developed showing the suspect BK’s car movements and placement that evening. Time will tell. And since it is likely that not all evidence has been shown or given, I am happy to wait. No rush.

There is still much discussion that some evidence is already available ‘showing that BK was not near the scene of this slayings’. Not exactly, parsing words here……. that evidence IIUC is regarding his phone or an electronic device. Not BK an individual. Or his body or person. It is quite easy to deliberately leave a phone elsewhere - in an attempt to thwart identification or try to evade criminal identification or prosecution.

To borrow an apparent quote IIRC from Barry Morphew on his earlier fears that he would be ‘wrongly convicted’ (an apparent slip I believe from the term wrongly accused) - I believe an investigator attempted to assure BM he needn’t worry, he would not be wrongly convicted. Same might apply here to BK. MOO