48 Hours Mystery

[Nehemiah]

This is all a little bit fuzzy for me, it's been so long ago, but is there pictures that the White's have from their party? I would imagine they turned those over for evidence which is why we haven't seen them.

Yes, you are correct. The Whites reportedly turned over the pictures and the pictures have not been released to the public. We have always been suspicious of what they may show since no one has viewed them.

 

[Camper]

I somehow doubt "he had nothing to gain", many ,many fringe characters have developed over the last eight years who had nothing but a need to interject themselves. I do mean they had "nothing".
Even our "beloved" Toast, just had to take it a step too far by going into Burke's school, people from chat rooms and forums descended on Boulder to meet and greet in front of cameras. Everyone wanted to play a part in the unfolding drama, so yep, I think the guy who said he was told by JAR that he wanted Jonbenet dead, clearly just "fabricated" to have his moment.

Those haunting "goat eyes" of Oliva's when he stated, "they said I am cleared",now that's something that deserves attention. Did he play alone?

------------------>>>I agree that there were people who tried to get their moment in the case.

I do believe that this narc undercover one was the first person to come forward, I read this story in February.

I will tell you why I think he had merit for the murder case.

I believe, if he was undercover drug narc that he had to have inserted himself into social circles (rich, poor - many of these folks use drugs, it knows no social limit).

This person was dismissed by all accounts, with a 'phone call from Jane Harmer, detective with BPD, as being 'unreliable'.

If anyone knows whether Jane Harmer was ever included in the travel investigative forays to GA and MI by BPD 'staff ?', please post a source for that. I have a feeling that she was most likely not one of the GOB's.

IF IF this narc was that 'unreliable' in his abilities, WHY would he ever be used to unearth drug users there???

Could it be that he merely wanted to find justice for JonBenet??? How quaint that a narc undercover person would want that? Hmmm, welllllllllllllll if he wanted to rid that little part of America of drug users, WHY NOT?

PERHAPS, just perhaps everyone of an investigative nature, BPD, forum posters, just chaulked him off as 'WANTING HIS LITTLE PORTION OF FAME', there ya go.

I do think, from all that WE (forum posters know), that this was a HUGE clue in this crime that was NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY ANYONE, it certainly appears so to ME.

NOW then why did the narc shut up, never to be heard from again?

Remember the 'lady' that claimed she dressed up like a little girl for John, yad dah da da? That story kept the newspapers and magazines going for a LONG LONG TIME.

One guy with a clue, and he is colored gone gone ASAP. Well the RAmsey attorney said, JAR was not in MI at that time the offer was made. WELLLLLLLLLLL when your daughter turns up dead a few months later, wouldn't you want to know MORE about the narc person? WE of course do not know what the illusive Ramsey investigators investigated do WE?

Hmmm.

Under no circumstances would I ever suggest that a forum person do an investigation on their own.

 

[luvbeaches]

Yes, you are correct. The Whites reportedly turned over the pictures and the pictures have not been released to the public. We have always been suspicious of what they may show since no one has viewed them.

I guess time will tell if we ever find out what's actually in the pictures. I'd like to hear what the White's have to say about the events (in court).

 

[mihaff]

IMO the note was a plea for John to leave the house. Notice the note never mentions Patsy at all by name or as wife. My theory is that John was asleep as he said and an accident happened, perhaps due to an intentional act by either P or B or an unknown. I think patsy cared for her and when she thought she was dead Patsy staged the garoted body. SHe needed John to leave the house so she could drop the body on some road somewhere. JOhn reacted like you would expect and told her to call the police. Before they arrived (perhaps Patsy admitted it) or soon after they arrived John realized what had happened and decided to go along to protect someone - one of the other two perhaps. If John had done it, he would have dumped the body before calling the police. For a woman it would have been a bigger task and she wanted John to leave so she wouldn't be seen. If she really had Douglas's book and was first reported, she may have decided to copy a murder she had read about. My opinion may and probably is all bunk, but the note was not really a ransom note it was a false lead planted by someone. It had strangely familiar references that I do not believe John would have allowed if he was involved. Sounds like it was written by a naive but intelligent woman wanting to sound like a tough man perhaps even a little drunk.

 

[sissi]

------------------>>>I agree that there were people who tried to get their moment in the case.

I do believe that this narc undercover one was the first person to come forward, I read this story in February.

I will tell you why I think he had merit for the murder case.

I believe, if he was undercover drug narc that he had to have inserted himself into social circles (rich, poor - many of these folks use drugs, it knows no social limit).

This person was dismissed by all accounts, with a 'phone call from Jane Harmer, detective with BPD, as being 'unreliable'.

If anyone knows whether Jane Harmer was ever included in the travel investigative forays to GA and MI by BPD 'staff ?', please post a source for that. I have a feeling that she was most likely not one of the GOB's.

IF IF this narc was that 'unreliable' in his abilities, WHY would he ever be used to unearth drug users there???

Could it be that he merely wanted to find justice for JonBenet??? How quaint that a narc undercover person would want that? Hmmm, welllllllllllllll if he wanted to rid that little part of America of drug users, WHY NOT?

PERHAPS, just perhaps everyone of an investigative nature, BPD, forum posters, just chaulked him off as 'WANTING HIS LITTLE PORTION OF FAME', there ya go.

I do think, from all that WE (forum posters know), that this was a HUGE clue in this crime that was NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY ANYONE, it certainly appears so to ME.

NOW then why did the narc shut up, never to be heard from again?

Remember the 'lady' that claimed she dressed up like a little girl for John, yad dah da da? That story kept the newspapers and magazines going for a LONG LONG TIME.

One guy with a clue, and he is colored gone gone ASAP. Well the RAmsey attorney said, JAR was not in MI at that time the offer was made. WELLLLLLLLLLL when your daughter turns up dead a few months later, wouldn't you want to know MORE about the narc person? WE of course do not know what the illusive Ramsey investigators investigated do WE?

Hmmm.

Under no circumstances would I ever suggest that a forum person do an investigation on their own.

Camper ,could you please tell more. I really must have missed this one, I thought the informer was actually a "colorful character" in his own right, never have I heard he was an undercover narc.

 

[Eagle1]

There are a few new people in the forum. Could/would you just give us a brief summary from the start about the Waterford, Mi story? I don't remember details myself, and wouldn't try to investigate since it's the area where Jimmy Hoffa disappeared and now you say there's a narc person. But we all deserve to just know the story. Maybe we'd think of something.

Mihaff, you must not be a parent. Parents just do not act like that.

 

[mihaff]

parents act like that all the time. its sad but true.

 

[Nehemiah]

There are a few new people in the forum. Could/would you just give us a brief summary from the start about the Waterford, Mi story? I don't remember details myself, and wouldn't try to investigate since it's the area where Jimmy Hoffa disappeared and now you say there's a narc person. But we all deserve to just know the story. Maybe we'd think of something.

Mihaff, you must not be a parent. Parents just do not act like that.

Eagle, didn't you used to be a PDI theorist, or do I have you mixed up with someone else? If so, what made you change your mind?

 

[Camper]

I am one of the posters who has never kept a log of facts on the case. You might wish to contact A Candy Rose she may have something on the narc undercover person.

I am having some health issues at this time, and when up to snuff, will search Boulder archives, or anyone else please feel free to do so.

I operate from memory of a national article that made the papers then quietly slipped away into oblivion, AFTER the Ramsey's attorneys responded that JAR was not in Michigan at the time 'the offer' of $10,000.00 was made to the undercover narc person to perform a boat accident.

I remember the piece originally appeared in the Globe, as I recall.




.

 

[Nehemiah]

"When you start turning rocks over in Boulder, you know, stand back," adds Gray.

What they have discovered is startling. Within a two-mile radius of where the Ramseys once lived, 38 of their neighbors are registered sex offenders. What these private detectives have also discovered is that in the months before JonBenet's murder, there were more than 100 burglaries in her neighborhood.

"All the crime that was actually going on, I don't think that the Ramseys had any clue that this was going on," says Gray.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

Probably to a degree, none of us truly knows all our neighbors.

Interestingly, however, I personally know someone who lives in the R's Boulder neighborhood--a couple of blocks from Fifteenth St. I was in contact with her after the 48 Hours show aired, and I brought up about the unsafe conditions/activity there. She was truly amazed and said that she walks alone at night, has lived there a long time, and that her family has never had any reason to believe that it was unsafe. She said that she does use common sense as in not getting into cars with strangers (tic), but otherwise she thought that casting the neighborhood to be generally unsafe was not a fair and true picture.

 

[luvbeaches]

Let's put this one "myth" to rest . She was dressed in the same star shirt when her body was found that she had worn to the White's. It is not a fact , never was that she had worn that red top that day.

Sissi...I found this little bit of information over at another forum (posted by Elle 1). I knew I had read where Patsy had given conflicting reports on what JonBenet was wearing that night. This along with a million other inconsistancies in their statements....


^^^^Interviewing Patsy Ramsey. It was now 30 April, 1997, and Steve Thomas hadn't seen Patsy Ramsey since the nontestimonial evidence session on December 28, 1996.

2. JonBenét had fallen asleep in the car on the way home,
and John Ramsey carried her upstairs where Patsy replaced the child's pants with the long-john bottoms. The white shirt with the sequin star stayed on, she said. This was the first time the detectives had heard she was asleep and carried to bed with a change of clothes.

On December 26, Patsy had told the police that JonBenét
went to sleep wearing the red turtleneck top. Now it was the white one in which the body was found. Inconsistent.^^^^^^

 

[close_enough]

IMO the note was a plea for John to leave the house. Notice the note never mentions Patsy at all by name or as wife. My theory is that John was asleep as he said and an accident happened, perhaps due to an intentional act by either P or B or an unknown. I think patsy cared for her and when she thought she was dead Patsy staged the garoted body. SHe needed John to leave the house so she could drop the body on some road somewhere. JOhn reacted like you would expect and told her to call the police. Before they arrived (perhaps Patsy admitted it) or soon after they arrived John realized what had happened and decided to go along to protect someone - one of the other two perhaps. If John had done it, he would have dumped the body before calling the police. For a woman it would have been a bigger task and she wanted John to leave so she wouldn't be seen. If she really had Douglas's book and was first reported, she may have decided to copy a murder she had read about. My opinion may and probably is all bunk, but the note was not really a ransom note it was a false lead planted by someone. It had strangely familiar references that I do not believe John would have allowed if he was involved. Sounds like it was written by a naive but intelligent woman wanting to sound like a tough man perhaps even a little drunk.

i agree w/this...i think John reacted like any parent would have, at first, by having Patsy call the police....Patsy probably believed once John read the note, he'd leave & go get the ransom money, & NOT call the police, with all that "beheading" stuff...all the bully talk in the note....it backfired when John said to call the police....she may have broke down & told him what happened, or after studying the note, he recognized it could be her handwriting....can you just imagine the panic in that house, that morning??...what to do, what to do....
i don't think John sexually abused JBR either, like some folks do....i think the evidence of abuse found inside of JBR was caused by Patsy also....possibly her wiping JBR after bedwetting, in a rough manner....maybe even putting things/objects inside her, as punishment....it's not that farfetched....actually i had thought of that, prior to reading Steve Thomas' book....anyone read the book Sybil?...horrible story of abuse, by a little girl's own mother...i'm sure it's not the first time this had happened to a child...it won't be the last...

 

[close_enough]

parents act like that all the time. its sad but true.

you're right...it happens more than we know, but things like that are kept very quiet...children can be manipulated very easily, to keep quiet, especially by a parent, or "parent figure".....i know this to be true....

just because a person is a parent, doesn't mean they won't hurt their children...most don't, but some do...

 

[RedChief]

Im in the same situation..but what is being said is the DNA in the panties have the same markers as the DNA found under JBR's finger nails. IF that is true, then I dont see how it could have came from a factory worker.

Obviously, the factory worker is the culprit. How many people, who have contact with the panties, work in that factory? MK, it's off to Taiwan!

Just a few thoughts and questions: If I recollect correctly, the 48 hours reporter said that the foreign DNA in the panties was found ONLY within the red areas of staining, leading to the conclusion that it had mingled with the blood prior to it's deposition. Apparently, prior to these tests, no other lab, including Cellmark, which I find incredible, had tested ALL the blood spots. Moreover, no other lab had been able to extract a sufficient amount of undegraded DNA, with the technology then available, to generate a complete profile. So, there is now, reportedly, a complete profile against which the DNA of suspects can be compared. Whereas there may be an innocent explanation for this foreign male DNA, which may also have been found under JBR's fingernails, it could also be traceable to her killer.

 

[sissi]

It must have been one "heck" of a sneeze, to leave enough "debris" in those panties that she managed to get the SAME dna under her nails!
One possibly interesting side note,given the dna found on Susanah Chase has been determined to be that of either American Indian or Hispanic origin (if I recall correctly), could this Asian worker comment indicate the dna in the Jonbenet case has been classified as Asian? This would give some credence to Blue Crab's Asian faction theory.
I am concerned a bit about dna x, wondering if x is meant to mean unknown or if it refers to female dna. I can't imagine labeling it x without meaning female, however, JMO.

 

[BlueCrab]

It must have been one "heck" of a sneeze, to leave enough "debris" in those panties that she managed to get the SAME dna under her nails!
One possibly interesting side note,given the dna found on Susanah Chase has been determined to be that of either American Indian or Hispanic origin (if I recall correctly), could this Asian worker comment indicate the dna in the Jonbenet case has been classified as Asian? This would give some credence to Blue Crab's Asian faction theory.
I am concerned a bit about dna x, wondering if x is meant to mean unknown or if it refers to female dna. I can't imagine labeling it x without meaning female, however, JMO.

In regard to the DNA on JonBenet, it should be remembered that it is not complete. It has 10 identifiable markers -- just enough to get it into the FBI's CODIS bank. Codis prefers 13 markers.

Another thing, even though there is constant reference to the new DNA, with 10 identifiable markers, as being sourced from the second spot of blood in the panties, there has also been talk about it being from the perps saliva -- co-mingled with JonBenet's blood. IOW it's likely DNA from saliva that we are discussing, which helps paint the overall picture with a little more clarity.

Also, if the DNA in the panties has been ethnically sourced as Asian, I would obtain DNA samples from everyone of the 29 members of the Asian Pacific American Coalition which disbanded at CU just weeks after JonBenet was murdered.

 

[Catfish]

What (Ramsey's private detectives) have discovered is startling. Within a two-mile radius of where the Ramseys once lived, 38 of their neighbors are registered sex offenders...

"All the crime that was actually going on, I don't think that the Ramseys had any clue that this was going on," says (Ollie) Gray.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

38 sex offenders within 2 miles of the Ramsey home! While this seems like a very large number of offenders, is using this statistic just more spin?

The approximate size of the City of Boulder is 5.3 miles (north to south) by 4.4 miles (east to west). Therefore, "within a two-mile radius of where the Ramseys once lived" is basically saying 38 sex offenders were registered within the city limits of Boulder.

"38 of their neighbors are registered sex offenders..." How significant is that number?

[font=Times New Roman, Times]From two web sites concerning per capita rate of registered sex offenders -[/font]

The per capita rate of Registered Sex Offenders in Island County, 1/1000 population, is about the same as other counties our size and demographic makeup. http://www.islandcounty.net/sheriff/rsolist.htm

Justice Department figures indicate Emeryville has 84 registered sex offenders. That's about 12 sex offenders for every 1,000 residents in the city of about 7,000. http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/050604_nw_offenders.html

From these articles, we see the number of registered sex offenders can be expected to be anywhere from 1 to 12 per 1000 residents.

Just how many sex offenders would we expect to be registered in Boulder? The 1995 population of Boulder was 60,746. Therefore, statistically, we would expect anywhere from 60 to 700 sex offenders to be registered in a city with a population of nearly 61,000.

"Within a two-mile radius of where the Ramseys once lived, 38 of their neighbors are registered sex offenders"

While even one registered sex offender is sad, 38 in a town of 61,000 is well below what would be expected and is hardly "startling." Ollie Gray's use of 38 registered sex offenders is very misleading in trying to demonstrate just how dangerous Boulder is.

”We moved to Boulder. We very strongly felt we had moved to a very safe, small kind of 'Ozzie and Harriet' kind of community,” says John Ramsey, JonBenet's father. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

At least based on number of registered sex offenders, I would say that the Ramseys had indeed "moved to a very safe, small kind of 'Ozzie and Harriet' kind of community.”

 

[Camper]

In regard to the DNA on JonBenet, it should be remembered that it is not complete. It has 10 identifiable markers -- just enough to get it into the FBI's CODIS bank. Codis prefers 13 markers.

Another thing, even though there is constant reference to the new DNA, with 10 identifiable markers, as being sourced from the second spot of blood in the panties, there has also been talk about it being from the perps saliva -- co-mingled with JonBenet's blood. IOW it's likely DNA from saliva that we are discussing, which helps paint the overall picture with a little more clarity.

Also, if the DNA in the panties has been ethnically sourced as Asian, I would obtain DNA samples from everyone of the 29 members of the Asian Pacific American Coalition which disbanded at CU just weeks after JonBenet was murdered.

----------->>>Blue Crab, do you know how long the Asian Pacific American Coalition, had been in operation in Boulder, OR if membership had remained steady during the time it was in force?

Was this group identified as a college acceptable group for the students? Also were members solicited to become members through college media, or was it just word of mouth from one Asian to another on campus OR?

 

[BlueCrab]

----------->>>Blue Crab, do you know how long the Asian Pacific American Coalition, had been in operation in Boulder, OR if membership had remained steady during the time it was in force?

Was this group identified as a college acceptable group for the students? Also were members solicited to become members through college media, or was it just word of mouth from one Asian to another on campus OR?

Camper,

I don't know how long APAC at CU was in existence. I know the group had sponsored events (speakers, etc.) during 1995 and 1996 and had events scheduled for 1997 which they abandoned following the murder of JonBenet.

APAC is a national organization and is located at many U.S. colleges and universities. At CU they held their meetings on campus in rooms provided by the University and were apparently financed modestly by the University, although APAC had to also raise its own funds.

APAC was listed in the school's index of official campus oranizations, but its funding was discontiued in early 1997 due to inactivity, and it was removed from the listings.

 

[sandraladeda]

Also, if the DNA in the panties has been ethnically sourced as Asian, I would obtain DNA samples from everyone of the 29 members of the Asian Pacific American Coalition which disbanded at CU just weeks after JonBenet was murdered.

This would seem logical and expedient, but keep in mind that this would be a colossal human rights/racial profiling violation, equally as politically incorrect as rounding up Muslims for questioning after 9-11.
IMO