911 Call

[DeeDee249]

Do you guys think that if RDI that the murder was premeditated? One problem I found with the police finding the purchase of duct tape and rope as evidence is I find it hard to believe that the parents would have planned the murder. I always thought if RDI it would have been an accident.

I don't. There is simply no evidence as far as I am concerned. Duct tape and cord are common household items. We haven't discussed this point in a long time, so as you are new, you may be unaware. But Patsy enjoyed painting, and as a former art student myself, there is a way to transport a painting (watercolor or canvas that has been removed from the stretcher/frame) by rolling it into a tube shape, securing the edge with tape and making a "sling" by putting a cord or twine though the open ends. If Patsy was planning to do this, that may account for the cord and tape. She was planning that trip to Charlevoix, and meeting up with her stepkids there, and may have been planning to bring a painting as a gift.
I also, though RDI, do not feel the parents would have planned to kill JB.

 

[DeeDee249]

Slightly off-topic: I've noticed people on this board sometimes refer to statements Burke made to the police (that his sister was not asleep the night of the 25th when they got home, for example). Is there a handy place where Burke's interview with the police can be found?

Because of his age, BR's conversations with police were not released to the public the way his parents' were. And there was VERY little face-time with LE. Even his Grand Jury testimony was videotaped, so we don't even know whether he had a lawyer present (which is NOT allowed when you are questioned by a GJ) or whether he was simply presented with a list of questions which someone else (like a lawyer) may have "advised" on how to answer.
The information on what he said I found in some of the books I read, most notably, Steve Thomas' book. He was one of the detectives on the case, and one of the only ones, IMO, who truly just tried to follow the evidence and his conscience.

 

[shotgunhomicide]

Do you guys think that if RDI that the murder was premeditated? One problem I found with the police finding the purchase of duct tape and rope as evidence is I find it hard to believe that the parents would have planned the murder. I always thought if RDI it would have been an accident.

There are certainly some aspects of it that make me consider the crime being premeditated in the days before the murder. Along with the receipt the police found (which I don't put much stock in considering the piece that was covering JB's mouth was used), the 9/11 call made from the Ramsey house during their Christmas party is really weird. JB was seen crying at the party and said she didn't feel beautiful, which leads me to believe she might have been molested that night. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't this the same night she refused to wear the outfit that Patsy had picked out for her?

None of those alone leads me to believe that the Ramsey's wanted JB dead, but add those together on top of chronic molestation and it seems like a bad cocktail.

 

[UKGuy]

There are certainly some aspects of it that make me consider the crime being premeditated in the days before the murder. Along with the receipt the police found (which I don't put much stock in considering the piece that was covering JB's mouth was used), the 9/11 call made from the Ramsey house during their Christmas party is really weird. JB was seen crying at the party and said she didn't feel beautiful, which leads me to believe she might have been molested that night. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't this the same night she refused to wear the outfit that Patsy had picked out for her?

None of those alone leads me to believe that the Ramsey's wanted JB dead, but add those together on top of chronic molestation and it seems like a bad cocktail.

shotgunhomicide,
The outfit was selected for the White's party. Thats if what Patsy states is factually correct. The emotional under-current leading to the White's party appears to have JonBenet somewhat stressed, Patsy making remarks about JonBenet flirting etc. All suggesting that JonBenet in one critical area was in conflict with Patsy. Its as if Patsy viewed JonBenet not simply as a daughter but as another female who might make inconvenient decisions that impacted upon Patsy?

 

[Stef88]

I don't. There is simply no evidence as far as I am concerned. Duct tape and cord are common household items. We haven't discussed this point in a long time, so as you are new, you may be unaware. But Patsy enjoyed painting, and as a former art student myself, there is a way to transport a painting (watercolor or canvas that has been removed from the stretcher/frame) by rolling it into a tube shape, securing the edge with tape and making a "sling" by putting a cord or twine though the open ends. If Patsy was planning to do this, that may account for the cord and tape. She was planning that trip to Charlevoix, and meeting up with her stepkids there, and may have been planning to bring a painting as a gift.
I also, though RDI, do not feel the parents would have planned to kill JB.

I agree, I never understood why the police were so obsessed with finding the reciept/confirming the items etc. it doesn't prove anything! The painting thing makes sense too.

 

[DeeDee249]

I agree, I never understood why the police were so obsessed with finding the reciept/confirming the items etc. it doesn't prove anything! The painting thing makes sense too.

Actually, the receipt proves to ME that they bought the cord and tape. I just don't think they bought those items to murder their daughter. I think they were bought for common household purposes and used because they were there.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope, you point out one of the psychologically interesting things about this case for me. Why did JB have her favorite blanket covering (or laid near?) her body? And the ransom note mentioned denying the body for a proper burial. There's concern for her body. It's sick, but it makes sense to me that PR still had protective instincts. And it makes sense that PR thought her actions towards her daughter were somehow justified (JB's HER daughter), but dumping the body for a stranger to harm is unthinkable. Otherwise, for me to believe PDI, I feel like I'd have to think she was a complete sociopath.

BTW, I've read Steve Thomas' book and I do tend to agree with his theory, with skepticism. The one event I'm convinced of is that Patsy wrote the ransom note.

The bit about denying her a proper burial might not be showing concern as much as showing there was originally a plan to dump the body somewhere. The RN makes more sense (to the extent it makes any sense at all) if there is not a body in the house.

It's unlikely a stranger would have done anything to the body. Most likely they'd just report it to police.

Sociopath is a real possibility, IMO.

 

[sandover]

I just made it through the entire transcript of PR's 1997 interview some months after JB's death.

Anyone else impressed with how well she lies (if, as I believe, she is lying)? I am very good at picking up little "slips" and "tells" and she has very few.

The only thing I noticed is that when we get to a sensitive area, she tends to "race through" narrating events, as if to say "This is too traumatic and I have to just speed through what happened!" It seems to me that an innocent person would, even though it would be painful, take their time and try to remember every detail of what happened...

Still, even with all those months of prep and the truly terrible interrogation (I wish Steve Thomas had been fully in charge) she was impressive.

Onto John, who in my experience is less successful of a liar...

 

[DeeDee249]

If I recall, one of the R's conditions for talking to police is that ST NOT be involved in the interviews. Apparently he was obviously immune to Patsy's Southern charm and batting eyelashes, and he never let himself be taken in by their phoniness. Unlike LS, who was completely fooled by their devout Christianity.

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

patsy´s 911 phone call reminds me that one by michael peterson,you can hear a bit in this video,and I do believe he killed his wife:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LJLqvnBFz8&feature=related"]The Staircase (Soupçons) - Bande-annonce - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Chrishope]

If I recall, one of the R's conditions for talking to police is that ST NOT be involved in the interviews. Apparently he was obviously immune to Patsy's Southern charm and batting eyelashes, and he never let himself be taken in by their phoniness. Unlike LS, who was completely fooled by their devout Christianity.

I've always wondered if LS was paid by the Rs. He doesn't seem like a man who is easily taken in.

 

[DeeDee249]

I've always wondered if LS was paid by the Rs. He doesn't seem like a man who is easily taken in.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was "hired" by them. Although a seasoned detective like him may seem to be immune to phoniness and used to lying criminals, the problem was that THESE people didn't seem like criminals. They seemed like nice people, Christian people. People who couldn't possibly kill anyone, especially their child. Maybe they didn't. But if not, they know who did and covered it up.

Hmmmm....about that Spanish Inquisition? Weren't THEY "Good Christians" too? Seems to me they killed a few people. Too bad we can't ask St. Joan about the "Christians" who burned her at the stake. And hey, how 'bout those Nazis? They were Christians too. What makes a Christian "good"? Not committing murder? Or not having the ABILITY to commit murder? How would you tell the difference? "Thou shalt not kill" isn't just a "suggestion". We are actually supposed to follow that law, legally and morally. But some people kill, Christian or not, even when they are nice people.
Besides, it still isn't a sure thing that the parents actually committed this murder. But they surely know what happened to JB and they absolutely helped to cover it up. Patsy wrote that note as sure as I draw breath. She knew, and she went to her grave knowing.

 

[UKGuy]

I wouldn't be surprised if he was "hired" by them. Although a seasoned detective like him may seem to be immune to phoniness and used to lying criminals, the problem was that THESE people didn't seem like criminals. They seemed like nice people, Christian people. People who couldn't possibly kill anyone, especially their child. Maybe they didn't. But if not, they know who did and covered it up.

Hmmmm....about that Spanish Inquisition? Weren't THEY "Good Christians" too? Seems to me they killed a few people. Too bad we can't ask St. Joan about the "Christians" who burned her at the stake. And hey, how 'bout those Nazis? They were Christians too. What makes a Christian "good"? Not committing murder? Or not having the ABILITY to commit murder? How would you tell the difference? "Thou shalt not kill" isn't just a "suggestion". We are actually supposed to follow that law, legally and morally. But some people kill, Christian or not, even when they are nice people.
Besides, it still isn't a sure thing that the parents actually committed this murder. But they surely know what happened to JB and they absolutely helped to cover it up. Patsy wrote that note as sure as I draw breath. She knew, and she went to her grave knowing.

DeeDee249,
I'll pass on the christian stuff, its far too obvious, except I doubt Patsy ever died to the cross.

The 64K question is: was Patsy complicit in the abuse of JonBenet, were the pageants simply a backdrop to JonBenet's ongoing sexualization?


.

 

[UKGuy]

I've always wondered if LS was paid by the Rs. He doesn't seem like a man who is easily taken in.

Chrishope,
Of course he was, him and John prayed together. You can be paid to ignore stuff, as well as discovering stuff.


.

 

[BBB167893]

I wouldn't be surprised if he was "hired" by them. Although a seasoned detective like him may seem to be immune to phoniness and used to lying criminals, the problem was that THESE people didn't seem like criminals.

They certainly weren't the kind of criminals he was USED to handling. That may be the key here.

 

[UKGuy]

They certainly weren't the kind of criminals he was USED to handling. That may be the key here.

SuperDave,
Sure looks that way. Even if he was impressed by the espousal of christian values, their social standing etc. I remember when LS was billed as the dog whisperer of the detective world, e.g. he possessed excellent intuition, his third eye could zone in on the prime suspect.

So you might expect him to exercise some discrimination, ask the relevant questions, instead of promoting the staged crime-scene as the work of a psychotic pedophile intruder, complete with a basement entry pose.

I reckon once he worked out there might not be any trial, and the evidence was contaminated, he became a Ramsey bloodhound, and simply went sniffing along the wrong trail?



.

 

[CircuitGuy]

I'm almost done reading James Kolar's book. He says that the enhanced tape shows clear conversation at the end. I listened to a copy on YouTube, and I was shocked not to hear even any background noise that I could imagine might be conversation.

Can anyone explain this? Is it that the enhanced version is not available to the public, and it sounds much much clearer?

Kolar said the 911 operator was freaked out by this bit of conversation b/c its tone wasn't consistent with the frantic tenor of the rest of the call. Is there any other source to back up this claim?

We all wish that we could have audio from right after PR put down the phone. I suspect claims that something can be heard on the tape are just wishful thinking.

 

[CircuitGuy]

What I found most surprising about the call is that PR and JR did not suggest the police investigate this undercover. It's unclear how much of the note they claimed to have digested, but they clearly understood it was a ransom note: Give us the money without calling the cops, and you'll get her back. I just find it surprising would call friends and the cops without asking all of them to lie low. There was a chance they kidnappers would return her the next morning or soon in exchange for an amount that they could easily afford to part with.

Maybe they were just totally freaked out. They were scared because if the criminal(s) could get in, take their daughter, and leave a note without their hearing, how powerful was he? Might someone still be in the house? Might they have left a listening device or booby trap? Might they have poisoned the food? What would they do if he just walked in the door and started making demands? It seems like they'd want to get everyone together, preferably out of the house and not leave each other's sight. This could explain the frantic 911 call but not their actions later.

To me, though, the 911 call was consistent with someone who just saw a stranger drive off with her kid. According to their story, they thought their child had been taken for ransom some time ago. "Careful, careful, careful" would be my mindset, NOT "hurry, hurry, hurry." There was nothing to hurry to. It sounds like an "hysterical mother" (sexism not mine) act.

My personal incredulity doesn't mean anything; I have no ability to pick out liars, but FWIW the call does not ring true to me.

 

[midwest mama]

What I found most surprising about the call is that PR and JR did not suggest the police investigate this undercover. It's unclear how much of the note they claimed to have digested, but they clearly understood it was a ransom note: Give us the money without calling the cops, and you'll get her back. I just find it surprising would call friends and the cops without asking all of them to lie low. There was a chance they kidnappers would return her the next morning or soon in exchange for an amount that they could easily afford to part with.

Maybe they were just totally freaked out. They were scared because if the criminal(s) could get in, take their daughter, and leave a note without their hearing, how powerful was he? Might someone still be in the house? Might they have left a listening device or booby trap? Might they have poisoned the food? What would they do if he just walked in the door and started making demands? It seems like they'd want to get everyone together, preferably out of the house and not leave each other's sight. This could explain the frantic 911 call but not their actions later.

To me, though, the 911 call was consistent with someone who just saw a stranger drive off with her kid. According to their story, they thought their child had been taken for ransom some time ago. "Careful, careful, careful" would be my mindset, NOT "hurry, hurry, hurry." There was nothing to hurry to. It sounds like an "hysterical mother" (sexism not mine) act.

My personal incredulity doesn't mean anything; I have no ability to pick out liars, but FWIW the call does not ring true to me.

:seeya:GLAD TO HAVE YOU POSTING, CircuitGuy. My Smilie chart doesn't want to come up right now, or I'd give you the WELCOME signs too.

The only copies I've heard maybe sound like "help me Jesus" a couple of times, and it is frustrating that we no longer have access to the public tape which is said to capture the other voices.

IMO, if we are going to rely on Kolar's book for good source information, there's no reason not to trust what he says. He seems genuine enough in watching him in personal appearances, but we can't use that as a determination of character really, since look at how the R's have come across to some during interviews. I'll keep my money on Kolar, though - too much experience behind him in his career, and a desire to continue in LE work makes me think he wouldn't want to take any chances with his book that might want to mess that up.

 

[Chrishope]

I'm almost done reading James Kolar's book. He says that the enhanced tape shows clear conversation at the end. I listened to a copy on YouTube, and I was shocked not to hear even any background noise that I could imagine might be conversation.

Can anyone explain this? Is it that the enhanced version is not available to the public, and it sounds much much clearer?

Kolar said the 911 operator was freaked out by this bit of conversation b/c its tone wasn't consistent with the frantic tenor of the rest of the call. Is there any other source to back up this claim?

We all wish that we could have audio from right after PR put down the phone. I suspect claims that something can be heard on the tape are just wishful thinking.

I think there must be more to it than wishful thinking. I can't recall the names, but detectives from Boulder, and technicians from Aerospace all listened to he enhanced version, and all wrote down what they heard. They all wrote the same thing. If I recall it was a total of 4 people. It's hard to believe 4 people all imagined the same thing.

In addition to Kolar, ST also mentions this, and I see no reason to think he's lying.

What's puzzling is that if the enhanced version hasn't been made public, then how can people have heard it? Yet many claim they have.