A Pre Meditated Murder? or Accidental?

[warbuckle]

I agree with you.

I also agree. I thought I was the only one not 100 convinced she was guilty of Murder. I still feel strongly that it was either an accident and she then made it look like a kidnapping because she was so afraid of her mother.

Or less possible someone did kidnap caylee to teach KC a lesson. She thought she was going to get her back so she didnt' call the police because perhaps the situation had something to do with illegal actions or something she didn't want her parents to find out she was involved in. She really did think she could handle it on her own. The child was put in her car for her to discover when she did she dumped her in the only place she was familiar with deposing of dead things, the lot. The explaination for her partying was that she needed to maintain her contacts so she could find Caylee or steal enough money from her friends to pay back this person.

Thoughts?

 

[ibyoungr]

I don't believe the kidnapping story was planned out way ahead of time. I don't believe it was even invented in detail for the famous 31 days. I think it was just a slap in the dark, and as she told it, she created it. She's a good liar, and has no trouble keeping her lies going.

I do think she at the very least thought that she would "blame it on the nanny." Right after Caylee died. Then convince herself that Caylee was at the nannys as she convinced everyone else around her that is where she was. Documentation shows this with texts with Issan, calls to her mom, texts with AH, convos with Amy, Jesse, Tone. If she did not have at the VERY LEAST "the nanny did it" why not just tell her friends on July 2, 3 and 4th that Caylee was with her mom? Remember AH, Ric, William and all at the July 4th party - NEVER MET CINDY. Why tell them Caylee was with the nanny? Unless, she already had at least that much planned.

I do not believe it was invented in detail until she "HAD" to come up with DETAIL when confronted by the police and her mother. All other details like the name Zenaida, the apts, the co-workers, how she met Zenaida, her mother, her roommates, Juliette, Jeff all that came
yes as a slap in the dark and as she created it she told it. The baby was found near a Zenaida's house. (the ones that left and went back to PR)

 

[Devon]

I also agree. I thought I was the only one not 100 convinced she was guilty of Murder. I still feel strongly that it was either an accident and she then made it look like a kidnapping because she was so afraid of her mother.

Or less possible someone did kidnap caylee to teach KC a lesson. She thought she was going to get her back so she didnt' call the police because perhaps the situation had something to do with illegal actions or something she didn't want her parents to find out she was involved in. She really did think she could handle it on her own. The child was put in her car for her to discover when she did she dumped her in the only place she was familiar with deposing of dead things, the lot. The explaination for her partying was that she needed to maintain her contacts so she could find Caylee or steal enough money from her friends to pay back this person.

Thoughts?

No, you are not the only one to be not convinced that she is guilty of first degree murder, but we are few and far between.

I don't believe that anyone else is involved in Caylee's death though. I am firmly convinced that KC knows what happened to her child and was the only one with her at the time. I'm also sure that KC hid Caylee's body in the trunk and subsequently placed her where she was eventually discovered.

What is not clear is how or why Caylee died. I see no convincing evidence of premeditation and so believe that it was either an accident (with possibly a degree of culpability on KC's part, through either a negligent act or omission) or it was a spur of the moment loss of control, with no malice aforethought or intent. The latter would still be murder of course, but there is a world of difference between a planned and intentional killing and one that happens when someone loses control. Given the right set of adverse circumstances, we are all capable of such an act, whether we like to acknowledge that fact or not.

Interestingly, the prosecution did not include 2nd or 3rd degree murder in their alternative charges and I think this is because they believed they would discover evidence one way or another of a deliberate act. As it is, they now have to prove premeditation because they haven't claimed that the aggravated abuse she is alternatively charged with caused Caylee's death.

 

[Rumpole]

I do think she at the very least thought that she would "blame it on the nanny." Right after Caylee died. Then convince herself that Caylee was at the nannys as she convinced everyone else around her that is where she was. Documentation shows this with texts with Issan, calls to her mom, texts with AH, convos with Amy, Jesse, Tone. If she did not have at the VERY LEAST "the nanny did it" why not just tell her friends on July 2, 3 and 4th that Caylee was with her mom? Remember AH, Ric, William and all at the July 4th party - NEVER MET CINDY. Why tell them Caylee was with the nanny? Unless, she already had at least that much planned.

I do not believe it was invented in detail until she "HAD" to come up with DETAIL when confronted by the police and her mother. All other details like the name Zenaida, the apts, the co-workers, how she met Zenaida, her mother, her roommates, Juliette, Jeff all that came
yes as a slap in the dark and as she created it she told it. The baby was found near a Zenaida's house. (the ones that left and went back to PR)

So if everything was "last minute" so was the actual killing.
I am not sure if getting in a rage and smothering Caylee to shut her up would be classified as premeditated murder?

 

[reeseeva]

So if everything was "last minute" so was the actual killing.
I am not sure if getting in a rage and smothering Caylee to shut her up would be classified as premeditated murder?

As I understand it, premeditation can happen in a split second.

Love your new avatar HP

 

[Devon]

As I understand it, premeditation can happen in a split second.

Love your new avatar HP

From the FL jury instructions:

To prove the crime of First Degree Premeditated Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:
1.
(Victim) is dead.
2.
The death was caused by the criminal act of (defendant).
3.
There was a premeditated killing of (victim).

Definitions.

An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.

“Killing with premeditation” is killing after consciously deciding to do so. The decision must be present in the mind at the time of the killing. The law does not fix the exact period of time that must pass between the formation of the premeditated intent to kill and the killing. The period of time must be long enough to allow reflection by the defendant. The premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the killing.

www.floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/2008/sc08-744.pdf

 

[LucyLu]

I don't believe a mother would plan the killing of a child.

It's sad to think otherwise but so typical of our calous society today.

Losers....

 

[Rumpole]

From the FL jury instructions:

To prove the crime of First Degree Premeditated Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:
1.
(Victim) is dead.
2.
The death was caused by the criminal act of (defendant).
3.
There was a premeditated killing of (victim).

Definitions.

An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.

“Killing with premeditation” is killing after consciously deciding to do so. The decision must be present in the mind at the time of the killing. The law does not fix the exact period of time that must pass between the formation of the premeditated intent to kill and the killing. The period of time must be long enough to allow reflection by the defendant. The premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the killing.

www.floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/2008/sc08-744.pdf

I have ended up discussing smothering which is not my conclusion about manner of death.

But, if it were smothering then a smart a$$ed lawyer could argue that smothering had the intent of "shutting up" and not killing.
Classic Manslaughter plea?

 

[Ripley007]

So if everything was "last minute" so was the actual killing.
I am not sure if getting in a rage and smothering Caylee to shut her up would be classified as premeditated murder?

In the USA it MOST certainly is premeditated murder....
It only takes a fraction of second to prove PRE-MEDITATED murder.
Again, for what it's worth, I believe KC was "already" into the killing mindset. Fantisising about killing her parents in a murder/suicide plot scheme. So, killing Caylee when angered came easier to KC than to the average citizen, having never fantised about committing murder before. JMHO!
And all this chat about "smothering"...that's been my long-time theory too.

 

[Devon]

In the USA it MOST certainly is premeditated murder....
It only takes a fraction of second to prove PRE-MEDITATED murder.
Again, for what it's worth, I believe KC was "already" into the killing mindset. Fantisising about killing her parents in a murder/suicide plot scheme. So, killing Caylee when angered came easier to KC than to the average citizen, having never fantised about committing murder before. JMHO!
And all this chat about "smothering"...that's been my long-time theory too.

FL's jury instructions I posted above about premeditation state that there must be a period of reflection and the premeditated intent must be formed before the killing. That can't happen in a fraction of a second.

I'm curious as to what evidence leads you to think that KC had been fantasising about killing her parents?

 

[TakeNote]

I would not call smothering an accident
It could be premeditated and planned for a long time, but if it was, I would expect a better plan than driving around with a body in the trunk for 3 days, so if it was smothering, it was spur of the moment.
I dare say the defense could argue "manslaughter" in that case, but I would think it ranked as a heinous act, and first degree murder?

we do not know for sure that caylee was in the trunk for 3 days.....she could have been dead for 3 days...moved ....and it left 3 days of decomp in the car trunk....yuck...i still hate writting that.....kc could of had a plan ....and then changed her mind where to leave the body.....just my thoughts....though...

 

[Rumpole]

we do not know for sure that caylee was in the trunk for 3 days.....she could have been dead for 3 days...moved ....and it left 3 days of decomp in the car trunk....yuck...i still hate writting that.....kc could of had a plan ....and then changed her mind where to leave the body.....just my thoughts....though...

I think the report states that the decomposition components were in the proportions associated with the FIRST 2.6 days of decomposition.
The sleuths here at WS (eg JWG and BJB) recalculated for more precise conditions of Florida weather and a white car trunk, and corrected that to around 3 days (I don't have the exact number of hours).
If the body was out of the trunk for significant time it might be cooler and so slow that decomposition down, and lengthen the period, but still the first stages of decomposition. And not beyond 3 and a bit days.

 

[TakeNote]

i understand....but think...if she was in a garbage bag in the hot sun....or perhaps under the lid inside the say....the sand box....it would get very hot....just like in the trunk....just an idea....

or in the garbage bag placed some where just as hot....and then moved...because she got nervous where she put her first.....i dont know....i just dont think she would drive around with the smell in the car...and not have that oder on her clothes....i just keep thinking ...the decomp got into the car trunk when she moved her....and then she left the car at amscot because of the smell...

 

[TakeNote]

it just makes ya sick anyway it is....dosnt it...yuck...yuck kc...

 

[Rumpole]

it just makes ya sick anyway it is....dosnt it...yuck...yuck kc...

Sick is an understatement.

I am assuming that Caylee was alive in the trunk initially.
That bothers me a lot.

 

[TakeNote]

oh...so sad...really...how could a mother do that to her child...

 

[Rumpole]

i understand....but think...if she was in a garbage bag in the hot sun....or perhaps under the lid inside the say....the sand box....it would get very hot....just like in the trunk....just an idea.... SNIP

I agree, so the "3 days" or the precise figure available is likely to be true. In my view it goes a long way to fixing the fact that the body was in the trunk untill 19th or 20th before being dumped or at least rebagged well enough to stop leakage.

This is getting OT of accident vs premeditated, but messing about with a body in ones car for 3 days is circumstantial evidence which speaks against the death being an accident.

 

[jon_burrows]

In the USA it MOST certainly is premeditated murder....
It only takes a fraction of second to prove PRE-MEDITATED murder.
Again, for what it's worth, I believe KC was "already" into the killing mindset. Fantisising about killing her parents in a murder/suicide plot scheme. So, killing Caylee when angered came easier to KC than to the average citizen, having never fantised about committing murder before. JMHO!
And all this chat about "smothering"...that's been my long-time theory too.

I agree. One of the talking heads explained the 'legal' term of premeditated murder and smothering (even if it is during a fit of rage) is considered premeditated. It takes a lot longer than a split second to smother someone to death. The perp knows in those moments (actually minutes) that it takes to smother someone to death the end result will be death. They have time to stop the act of murder but don't therefore legally it is premeditated. It does not have to be planned out days, hours, or even minutes ahead of time to be considered a premeditated murder.

 

[Rumpole]

I agree. One of the talking heads explained the 'legal' term of premeditated murder and smothering (even if it is during a fit of rage) is considered premeditated. It takes a lot longer than a split second to smother someone to death. The perp knows in those moments (actually minutes) that it takes to smother someone to death the end result will be death. They have time to stop the act of murder but don't therefore legally it is premeditated. It does not have to be planned out days, hours, or even minutes ahead of time to be considered a premeditated murder.

If that is the scenario the defence uses and proves, I can see plenty of room to argue "manslaughter". A rage could well last minutes and argued that "shutting the child up" was the driving emotion, and not "I want this child dead". My vast legal knowledge based on 40 years of watching TV dramas, leads me to see this as an absolutely classic situation for a manslaughter plea. And I am sure it would work a treat for Perry Mason, or Horrace Rumpole, and no bother at all for Denny Crane! Judge Judy could handle that one?

 

[jon_burrows]

If that is the scenario the defence uses and proves, I can see plenty of room to argue "manslaughter". A rage could well last minutes and argued that "shutting the child up" was the driving emotion, and not "I want this child dead". My vast legal knowledge based on 40 years of watching TV dramas, leads me to see this as an absolutely classic situation for a manslaughter plea. And I am sure it would work a treat for Perry Mason, or Horrace Rumpole, and no bother at all for Denny Crane! Judge Judy could handle that one?

I enjoy reading your posts!

If the defense goes for a rage smothering scenario I think they'll have an uphill battle. The prosecution could then bring in a doll, put a pillow over the doll with duct tape over the face, and visually show the jury just how long it takes to smother someone. Minutes of silence in the courtroom during this display coupled with pictures of Caylee's duct taped skull and Casey will live the rest of her life in prison. JMHO.

Throw in the video store footage of her and Tony and all the partying pictures after Caylee's death. The shopping spree at Target. The stolen money. There's no getting around those. If she killed her by accident, no one on this planet would act like she did. She didn't have a care in the world.