Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #178

[FromGermany1]

I wonder, if MW ever did the same (using crime scene photos for his own purposes) before. If he did not, I want to ask: Why now in case Abby/Libby, Delphi/IN?? What is so very special, that MW now risked to do it the first time?

 

[Megnut]

For all the naysayers that think the State conspired and dreamed up some elaborate lie and intentionally erased recordings, the subject of the bad VCR recording system was brought up back in 2014 at one of the Caroll County Meetings:

Page 1, Caroll County Jail paragraph 2

http://www.carrollcountygovernment.org/uploads/9/1/2/1/9121287/council_1.16.2014.pdf

moo

If I could piggyback on this:

From the beginning of mankind, there has been You Gave, I Want often resulting in violence.

And for probably as long, a system for justice from which  our system of was raised.

Technology is a very recent innovention.

Justice can carry on without it.

How many cctvs are wired to overwrite? How much data is lost over time due to operator error? How many criminals remain free only because BARD prevents arrest, for now?

Yes, it's unfortunate if evidence is lost. It's not, however, the end of the world. It doesn't erase whatever was true.

Defense continues to pound sand. Pretending their whole case could be resolves with the contents of the Locked Drawer. As if. Too, too convenient.

I'm not impressed.

JMO

 

[marv hucker]

Defence strategy seems to be employing the “throw enough at the wall, see what sticks” playbook

That or they’re charging by the motion/page/hour…

 

[FromGermany1]

Let’s assume RA is not BG, for the moment. That is yet to be proven at trial.

Are we in agreement that BG ordered the girls off the bridge and down the hill?

Libby's video/audio says: Yes, BG is the one, who forced the girls "dth" and produced the gun clicking - whoever BG might be.

 

[layer]

Defence strategy seems to be employing the “throw enough at the wall, see what sticks” playbook

Barring the unlikely case where the defense has absolute proof that their client is innocent, isn't raising reasonable doubt basically the defense's job?

 

[FromGermany1]

See Franks Memorandum from the Defense for Defense Theory involving members of an odinist gang and staging at the crime screen that resembles runes (used w/ odinist rituals) and odinist expert research provided to LE re: the crime scene runes.


EF - vinlander/odinist gang member (2017)
from the Franks Memorandum:




I'll offer this from memory; this information can be found in the Franks Memorandum and its Exhibits. I'm paraphrasing. EF is currently mid-50's, cognitively handicapped from birth; reported as having intellect of 8 years; is social, active, joined a gang, his older sisters, in their 60's, both reported their brother's discussions related to his involvement the events on Feb 13th. At LE interview, EF had attorney present. My understanding at some point EF retracted and provided an alibi that involved a friend vouching for him ... although EF's phone showed it was NOT where the alibi said EF was. EF's phone shows the phone was home the 13th. Elvis told a 2nd sister (who also tipped LE) that he was in trouble and going to have to leave town due to the events of the 13th. Elvis's SM shows references to runes related to crime scene. Also from Franks Memo: EF told Lt. Click that they might find his spit at the crime scene since he spat on "Abigail" after she was dead - because she was the difficult one. MOO

bbm
EF told so much, but didn't tell, who murdered the girls.

Strange, that we are hearing/reading this statement from EF, but don't know, what RA has to say. RA confessed to the charges, ok, 5 times even, ok. But it seems, he wasn't alone. There was a gang, and EF was a member, cognitively handicapped, but a member. Did he only spit on a victim or did the gang all spit together? Why should EF have done this as the only one? If he is minded like an 8yo, someone showed him before, how to express contempt, IMO. Did they spit on Abby's clothing or on Libby's clothing, as we know, that Abby was redressed with her friend's clothing? How much DNA was there to extract, if several people (men?) spat? Or was that piece of clothing swimming in the creek?

Oh, I have questions, more and more. (I never would have thought it. )

 

[twall]

03/25/2024

Response to a Petition Filed State's Response to Amended Motion to Compel.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 03/23/2024

 

[steeltowngirl]

There's not one way to handle work conflicts; interactions/resolutions exist on a scale. One does their best in the moment, calculates conditions and forming responses carefully in a conflict environment.

Exactly. This concept also applies to the law enforcement investigation into the murders of Libby and Abby. Mistakes were made - LE has been transparent about that through the years.

Defense insinuates there has been intentional malfeasance by the investigators, when the most likely scenario is that they did the best they could in the moment.

Grace and latitude goes both ways.

jmo

 

[FrostedGlass]

This sounds like you're theory is that Libby/Abby walked into the middle of a scary get-together on either side of the shallows below the crime scene and "down-the-hill". Not sure what you mean by "avoid the theme"?

Part of this theory carried a lot of weight, IMO, in the beginning.

Based on a drop off time of ~1:40, the girls had plenty of time to spend in the area. They both loved water; and since L was taking pics, it just seemed likely they went down the hill to take creek-side pics. When they came back up the hill, there was BG coming from the north. I imagined it was possible he came from the south, saw them down there, continued walking across the bridge until they came back up to the top of the hill. Then he turned toward them and caught them. In that scenario, there still could have been a couple of guys either on the private drive or down under the bridge.

But, then a year later, along comes Holeman in a February 12, 2019 interview saying the quotes below; so I'm left with not believing anything.

“There’s a lot of false information out there,” Holeman confirms. “Social media, although not new… does impede our investigation. Like when people put up side-by-side photos of innocent people—or, at least, people with no ties to the state of Indiana or Delphi—which creates false [information]. People believe it [though] because it’s on the internet.”
And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.
“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

Since the 2017 murder of Indiana teens Libby German and Abby Williams, local authorities have not released any information about the cause or time of death of either victim, leading to rumors and speculation. We spoke with Indiana State Police First Sgt. Jerry Holeman about why the police are...

www.aetv.com

 

[girlhasnoname]

I wonder, if MW ever did the same (using crime scene photos for his own purposes) before. If he did not, I want to ask: Why now in case Abby/Libby, Delphi/IN?? What is so very special, that MW now risked to do it the first time?

$$$$ IMO

 

[Oculus]

Let’s assume RA is not BG, for the moment. That is yet to be proven at trial.

Are we in agreement that BG ordered the girls off the bridge and down the hill?

Totally fair question.

Based on what LE have told us, it is the same person. I guess we'll have to take their word on it....

I for one, am looking forward to learning how this was deducted.

Can you clearly SEE, in the 40~ second clip that the man on the bridge is the same who makes the statement? (I doubt this)

Can you clearly SEE that there is no one else in the approximate vicinity (who theoretically could be the one heard in the clip)?

Or are we simply asked to make the assumption that the man approaching is the man heard in the clip?
-Sure it may be the most logical assumption, but can it be proven?

 

[Oculus]

Part of this theory carried a lot of weight, IMO, in the beginning.

Based on a drop off time of ~1:40, the girls had plenty of time to spend in the area. They both loved water; and since L was taking pics, it just seemed likely they went down the hill to take creek-side pics. When they came back up the hill, there was BG coming from the north. I imagined it was possible he came from the south, saw them down there, continued walking across the bridge until they came back up to the top of the hill. Then he turned toward them and caught them. In that scenario, there still could have been a couple of guys either on the private drive or down under the bridge.

Possible but keep in mind the fairly tight time between the Abby-snap and the BG-video.

 

[girlhasnoname]

If I could piggyback on this:

From the beginning of mankind, there has been You Gave, I Want often resulting in violence.

And for probably as long, a system for justice from which  our system of was raised.

Technology is a very recent innovention.

Justice can carry on without it.

How many cctvs are wired to overwrite? How much data is lost over time due to operator error? How many criminals remain free only because BARD prevents arrest, for now?

Yes, it's unfortunate if evidence is lost. It's not, however, the end of the world. It doesn't erase whatever was true.

Defense continues to pound sand. Pretending their whole case could be resolves with the contents of the Locked Drawer. As if. Too, too convenient.

I'm not impressed.

JMO

Agreed, the video taped interviews were written over, but there is still written accounts of those interviews from that time and the men who were called in for these interviews are still alive and can be deposed or called by the Defense. Their avenues of confirming what LE did or did not do during the early days of the investigation eliminating these men are NOT closed to them. It's just far more salacious and conspiracy like to insinuate this was all done on purpose, when local LE, ISP and the FBI was involved.

ALL IMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

Totally fair question.

Based on what LE have told us, it is the same person. I guess we'll have to take their word on it....

I for one, am looking forward to learning how this was deducted.

Can you clearly SEE, in the 40~ second clip that the man on the bridge is the same who makes the statement? (I doubt this)

Can you clearly SEE that there is no one else in the approximate vicinity (who theoretically could be the one heard in the clip)?

Or are we simply asked to make the assumption that the man approaching is the man heard in the clip?
-Sure it may be the most logical assumption, but can it be proven?

That’s the crux of the case. Prosecution must prove to a jury BARD that RA=BG, who ordered the girls down the hill to their murders.

We haven’t seen or heard the entire 40 second clip. I presume it will be provided at trial. It may prove that the photo and voice are the same person > Bridge Guy. Or not. Even if it is the same person, they must prove that RA=BG.

Justice for Libby and Abby hangs in the balance.

jmo

 

[FrostedGlass]

Possible but keep in mind the fairly tight time between the Abby-snap and the BG-video.

Yes, I did and discarded that theory.
But, then came Holeman. I quoted him.

That leaves me in a quandary as to what to believe.

If it wasn't for LE showing us the image and the time, I would lean toward them being taken on the north end path leading to down the hill near the cemetery.

 

[susiQ]

For all the naysayers that think the State conspired and dreamed up some elaborate lie and intentionally erased recordings, the subject of the bad VCR recording system was brought up back in 2014 at one of the Caroll County Meetings:

Page 1, Caroll County Jail paragraph 2

http://www.carrollcountygovernment.org/uploads/9/1/2/1/9121287/council_1.16.2014.pdf

moo

Wow! They knew three years prior that their recording system was “bad” and they didn’t take any action to replace it?? I’d call that negligence. JMHO

 

[layer]

That’s the crux of the case. Prosecution must prove to a jury BARD that RA=BG, who ordered the girls down the hill to their murders.

We haven’t seen or heard the entire 40 second clip. I presume it will be provided at trial. It may prove that the photo and voice are the same person > Bridge Guy. Or not. Even if it is the same person, they must prove that RA=BG.

What if, for example, evidence was recovered from the scene that has a positive DNA match to RA? Or if evidence seized from RA's house has a positive match to the girls? I would think that alone would suffice for a murder conviction, no need to prove he was BG or even part of a kidnapping. But the law is a mystery to me, so I'll leave it to those who know to set me straight.

 

[Oculus]

What if, for example, evidence was recovered from the scene that has a positive DNA match to RA? Or if evidence seized from RA's house has a positive match to the girls? I would think that alone would suffice for a murder conviction, no need to prove he was BG or even part of a kidnapping. But the law is a mystery to me, so I'll leave it to those who know to set me straight.

I agree. Any DNA evidence, and it's a whole new ballgame.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Totally fair question.

Based on what LE have told us, it is the same person. I guess we'll have to take their word on it....

I for one, am looking forward to learning how this was deducted.

Can you clearly SEE, in the 40~ second clip that the man on the bridge is the same who makes the statement? (I doubt this)

Can you clearly SEE that there is no one else in the approximate vicinity (who theoretically could be the one heard in the clip)?

Or are we simply asked to make the assumption that the man approaching is the man heard in the clip?
-Sure it may be the most logical assumption, but can it be proven?

BBM
Per RA’s PCA. RA/BG can be seen and heard saying “Down the Hill”.

 

[Oculus]

BBM
Per RA’s PCA. RA/BG can be seen and heard saying “Down the Hill”.

Yes, and I would like to know how they could establish that.

Surely his mouth cannot be seen moving in sync with the audio anywhere in the video... If that were the case, they would have a fairly clear visual of his face.