Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #178

[AppleTreeGreen]

Is there a link to this information?

"Before the defense could even discuss the theory of Odinist being involved, RA said told them that Odinists had threatened him."

What is Odinism, and is it connected to the Delphi murders?

Odinism is considered a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

www.newsnationnow.com

Page 22 of the Franks memo

 

[sunshineray]

What is Odinism, and is it connected to the Delphi murders?

Odinism is considered a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

www.newsnationnow.com

Page 22 of the Franks memo

Oh ok, I don't view that document as accurate. AJMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Oh ok, I don't view that document as accurate. AJMO

Me either, but I do get a laugh every time I read the original memo for Franks. The info contained within is so contrived, speculative and just not true but through their footnotes they think they can get away with their misrepresentations.

Franks Memo - Here is a prime example of the D's word play spin: Notice RA never stated the guards were threatening to kill his family unless he confessed. It's just a word ploy by the D. Page 22 of the FM

<snipped>
Richard would therefore not be able to privately discuss anything with his attorneys, such as “the guards are telling me that my wife and family will be killed unless I call my wife and tell her that I killed those girls.”15 Instead, a mentally defeated Richard Allen would continually mutter to his Defense team at every visit these types of general questions: “Is my wife alive? Is my family alive? Is my wife safe? Is my family safe?”

JMO

EBM - Bolded

 

[Vern]

I think having her own daughter identify her as the killer was probably enough to seal the deal.

I think so too, but I answered the bit of your post regarding "name me one case" as "no one had ever provided one" with a case that has been brought up in the thread a few times over the years as you know.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Me either, but I do get a laugh every time I read the original memo for Franks. The info contained within is so contrived, speculative and just not true but through their footnotes they think they can get away with their misrepresentations.

Franks Memo - Here is a prime example of the D's word play spin: Notice RA never stated the guards were threatening to kill his family unless he confessed. It's just a word ploy by the D. Page 22 of the FM

<snipped>
Richard would therefore not be able to privately discuss anything with his attorneys, such as “the guards are telling me that my wife and family will be killed unless I call my wife and tell her that I killed those girls.”15 Instead, a mentally defeated Richard Allen would continually mutter to his Defense team at every visit these types of general questions: “Is my wife alive? Is my family alive? Is my wife safe? Is my family safe?”

JMO

EBM - Bolded

Yet the guards didn’t tell him to call LE and confess? That’s among the many parts of the defense allegations that I do not understand.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Yet the guards didn’t tell him to call LE and confess? That’s among the many parts of the defense allegations that I do not understand.

Don't you find it more believable than if he had admitted guilt to LE?
I'm sure the jury will and I'm sure whoever may have issued the order to the guards knew the family confession would be. Look at how many times that's been said here.

 

[katydid23]

I wasn’t trying to allege that Odinism did in fact play a definitive role in the murders or the staging. Nor was I trying to assert that the aforementioned practitioners were involved.

However, since this is one of the theories or arguments that seem to be purported by the defense I do think deposing the Odinite correction officers could be beneficial, insightful and valuable to both the defense and prosecutors. In their own way as practicing followers of Odinism the depos of the two correction officers have some level of expertise about the belief system.Perhaps the information yielded will enable the prosecutors to defeat in court the defense’s interpretation of the crime scene or perhaps it will lead the defense to rule out one theory or further hone their strategy as they prepare for trial. Whether or not the evidence or information yielded from the depositions will be admissible cannot yet be predicted with certainty but I do see their possible potential to smoothen an already daunting and complicated court process for all parties involved, especially loved ones who advocate for justice for Libby and Abby.

Even if the information yielded from the depos is not admissible it they could still have the potential to generate further questions, insights or theories that the defense, and perhaps after review, the prosecutors and LE may decide are important to investigate leaving no stone unturned and further helping provide answers and closure to Libby’s and Abby’s families.

Also, it was notable to me not so much that he said he was threatened but that he identified the COs as Odinites. For me personally I wonder why that was the identifier he chose for them rather than the guards, their names or any such. After all, they aren’t the only Odinites in that prison and AB and BR said they haven’t mentioned Odinism or Odinist yet at this point yet it is implied he was aware of it. To be clear, I am not accusing or judging them. However, since the defense is focused on the Odinist theory that believers more likely committed the crimes, are threatening RA into confessing and that their threats and presence in the prison conversations allegedly lead to RA’s mental and physical decline, I could imagine, if this comes up at trial, at least one jury member would still be interested in hearing how often did the COs talk to him about their beliefs, how did it impact how they treated and worked with him and how did RA respond to their beliefs or symbology when present.

Let's say murder suspect claimed that he was only in prison because of a criminal conspiracy by Mormans, Jews, Catholics or Muslims. And his defense attorneys then went on to call and interrogate ALL of the prison staff, to ask each DOC employee about their religious beliefs, whether they wear the Jewish Star of David, or wear ashes during Lent, or ever wear 'temple underwear garments' or sacrifice animals in honour of a child's birth.

I really do not think the courts would allow such intrusive questioning concerning one's faith.

 

[katydid23]

What is Odinism, and is it connected to the Delphi murders?

Odinism is considered a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

www.newsnationnow.com

Page 22 of the Franks memo

I don't think the Frank's memo is a valid, credible source for much of the 'facts' they tried to set forth. IMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

Don't you find it more believable than if he had admitted guilt to LE?
I'm sure the jury will and I'm sure whoever may have issued the order to the guards knew the family confession would be. Look at how many times that's been said here.

I do find his admission to his wife more believable. The weird part for me is that he said the guards told him to confess to his wife. It would seem (to me) that they would have pushed him to confess to LE, where it would be a legal confession.

 

[susiQ]

I wasn’t trying to allege that Odinism did in fact play a definitive role in the murders or the staging. Nor was I trying to assert that the aforementioned practitioners were involved.

However, since this is one of the theories or arguments that seem to be purported by the defense I do think deposing the Odinite correction officers could be beneficial, insightful and valuable to both the defense and prosecutors. In their own way as practicing followers of Odinism the depos of the two correction officers have some level of expertise about the belief system.Perhaps the information yielded will enable the prosecutors to defeat in court the defense’s interpretation of the crime scene or perhaps it will lead the defense to rule out one theory or further hone their strategy as they prepare for trial. Whether or not the evidence or information yielded from the depositions will be admissible cannot yet be predicted with certainty but I do see their possible potential to smoothen an already daunting and complicated court process for all parties involved, especially loved ones who advocate for justice for Libby and Abby.

Even if the information yielded from the depos is not admissible it they could still have the potential to generate further questions, insights or theories that the defense, and perhaps after review, the prosecutors and LE may decide are important to investigate leaving no stone unturned and further helping provide answers and closure to Libby’s and Abby’s families.

Also, it was notable to me not so much that he said he was threatened but that he identified the COs as Odinites. For me personally I wonder why that was the identifier he chose for them rather than the guards, their names or any such. After all, they aren’t the only Odinites in that prison and AB and BR said they haven’t mentioned Odinism or Odinist yet at this point yet it is implied he was aware of it. To be clear, I am not accusing or judging them. However, since the defense is focused on the Odinist theory that believers more likely committed the crimes, are threatening RA into confessing and that their threats and presence in the prison conversations allegedly lead to RA’s mental and physical decline, I could imagine, if this comes up at trial, at least one jury member would still be interested in hearing how often did the COs talk to him about their beliefs, how did it impact how they treated and worked with him and how did RA respond to their beliefs or symbology when present.

Perhaps the purpose of the depositions of the Odinist guards is twofold. An attempt to extract the truth of their “religion” and/or listen to them perjure themselves about it. That, and their treatment of RA. Others have stated that RA was abused by them in a manner that was not appropriate. I would expect the Odinist guards to lie about that. These people speak of “honour” while possessing none. JMHO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I do find his admission to his wife more believable. The weird part for me is that he said the guards told him to confess to his wife. It would seem (to me) that they would have pushed him to confess to LE, where it would be a legal confession.

I have not found any evidence that the guards told RA to confess to anyone.
Is there evidence of this anywhere.
He was under 24 hour video surveillance; seems this would be pretty easy to substantiate or disprove.
Edit: misspelling

 

[pseudo_hum]

I do find his admission to his wife more believable. The weird part for me is that he said the guards told him to confess to his wife. It would seem (to me) that they would have pushed him to confess to LE, where it would be a legal confession.

IMO, much agreed. No coercion required. His mom and wife, two people who know him best.

 

[twall]

Just beautiful! As an aside, I noticed this posted on the site:

Important: Cell Phones

Cell phones and cameras are NOT permitted in the building during business hours. You are welcome to have your cell phones and cameras during privately hosted special events in the evening and on weekends.

So, I guess no cell phones and cameras is a “standing order” at the courthouse and not JG’s personal preference.

I don't know who decides that but I do know in the Indiana county I live in has the same policy and also includes weapons. One time when I went to the courthouse to pay my property taxes I forgot about having a paring knife in my purse and they didn't even catch it! I carried it with me to cut up apples at work.

The Allen Co. courthouse was recently vandalized.

Suspect charged in vandalism at Allen County Courthouse

A person now faces charges.

www.wane.com

LOOK: ‘Irreplaceable’ cornerstone of Allen County Courthouse among damage left by sledgehammer

According to court documents, the damage is between $75,000-$100,000.

www.wane.com

 

[girlhasnoname]

I have not sound any evidence that the guards told RA to confess to anyone.
Is there evidence of this anywhere.
He was under 24 hour video surveillance; seems this would be pretty easy to substantiate or disprove.

Because there isn't any, that's just conjecture and a 'hypothetical' scenario from the D. <see Memo for Franks, pg 22> RA confessed at least 5 times to his wife and his mother that he did in fact kill Abby & Libby according to documents from the July 2023 hearing acknowledged by the State (as confessions) and the Defense (as incriminating statements).

That was the hearing for possible bail discussion and Motion to transfer. Obviously those were either postponed by the Defense after receiving the information or denied by Judge Gull. I honestly cannot remember which, but I can totally understand why an incarcerated Defendant who self confesses his guilt would not be eligible for bail.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

IMO, much agreed. No coercion required. His mom and wife, two people who know him best.

Yes, and who he probably cares most and about what they think of him. Maybe he needed to purge his soul, it's been known to happen before by other inmates.

MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Personally, the bullet is of extremely limited value either way. The toolmark junk science was sufficient for probable cause, but it would either be completely left out at trial, neutered by weak language like consistent with or blasted by experts to the point of being detrimental to the prosecution. When the PCA first came out I challenged everyone here to see if they could find any case in which toolmarks on an unfired cartridge played any significant role in a conviction. So far I haven't heard of any. I'm still looking.
There are several (non-toolmark junk) methods of legitimately matching the cartridge to RA - fingerprints, touch DNA, for example. But now you would have questions about how and when it got there.

Eta: JMHO

This case won't be won on the bullet alone.

It will be because of the totality of the evidence.

RA was there during the afternoon in question.

He saw three girls leaving the area while he was entering.

He admits to wearing the same clothing that the man on the bridge wore.

He admits to standing on the bridge.

He has admitted to the murders.

This is just some of the things that we know.

So, the bullet is only a part of the puzzle.

AJMO

 

[lightofmine99]

I do find his admission to his wife more believable. The weird part for me is that he said the guards told him to confess to his wife. It would seem (to me) that they would have pushed him to confess to LE, where it would be a legal confession.

I know this is just projecting my own feelings onto another person, but I would never confess to something I didn't do just because a guard encouraged me to do so. Maybe a guard made some kind of passing comment that it would be better for him to come clean so he would feel better, but that's not really the same thing as "pushing" someone to do so.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Here's some public information regarding another SM 'duo defense 'experts" that have been rallying the charge on the SCOIN Courthouse steps for the Defense and BM was present Monday for the hearing and appeared on NN.

"Journalists do your job". Well, it looks like one of them did and found out this little diddy. This case almost sounds like a repeat of the Delphi case. Oh, the irony is not lost on me here.

Legal expert CM, a professor at the Creighton University School of Law, has followed the case and said the M's not only violated a court order prohibiting them from revealing evidence, but he thinks the developments put the entire trial on the line -- possibly tainting the jury pool.

BM & AM were representing serial killer AGarcia in Nebraska in 2016. They had to have local counsel/advisors since they are not licensed in Nebraska. The Judge allowed the local advisors to withdraw from the case after filing their Motion.

<snipped>
The development comes after a hearing where Douglas County Attorney DK said "Team M" was "inept or intentionally acting to mess up the criminal justice system."

Judge GR's ruling:
AM's recent comments violated ethical rules and interfered with the administration of justice in this case."

AM was removed as counsel of record from the case, could assist but not speak at trial, BMSr. and BMJr. remained.

'Team Motta' down one after judge throws attorney off the case

Garcia was found guilty and sentenced to death for the four murders. 48 Hours had a special on it called Resident Evil.

MOO

 

[susiQ]

I know this is just projecting my own feelings onto another person, but I would never confess to something I didn't do just because a guard encouraged me to do so.

RSBM
Nor would I, UNLESS, they threatened to harm my family. Just sayin’.

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

Let's say murder suspect claimed that he was only in prison because of a criminal conspiracy by Mormans, Jews, Catholics or Muslims. And his defense attorneys then went on to call and interrogate ALL of the prison staff, to ask each DOC employee about their religious beliefs, whether they wear the Jewish Star of David, or wear ashes during Lent, or ever wear 'temple underwear garments' or sacrifice animals in honour of a child's birth.

I really do not think the courts would allow such intrusive questioning concerning one's faith.

Just a disclaimer again that I am not asserting the Odinism theory is true. I am just trying to apply their theories to understand their line of thinking and strategies for wanting to depo the COs.

From what I understand from the defense’s motion as opposed to interrogating all the prison staff, they mainly want to depo only the 3 COs who had primary authority over RA in prison. IIRC, 2 of these COs have been alleged by AB, BR and Lamont to have displayed Odinist patches or tattoos and at least 1 identifies as an Odinist.

If I am following correctly one theory the defense posits is that Odinists in Delphi or Carroll County committed Libby’s and Abby’s murders as shown by evidence at the crime scene. Additionally, since the town of Delphi is rather small with a population of 3000 I assumed that similar to national trends the population of Odinist believers in that area would be very very small, especially when compared to the town’s Christian population and such. Keeping their argument or theory in line, compared to bigger religious circles in town Odinists in Delphi or Carroll County followers may be closer knit due to their small group or following size, have an easier time organizing meetings, getting to know, identify and contact one another. Such groups can grow really attached really fast and as a result it is possibly members are aware believer/believers actually committed the crimes but will cover for them and continue to protect each other and their religion. This theory or idea could apply even to the Odinists COs as well and thus cause a major concerning conflict of interest and put RA’s well-being and freedom at risks.

According to motions and interviews from BR, AB and Lamont, these COs also subjected to unusual stringent/severe conditions that impinged on their meetings, including keeping him chained while they spoke, restricting him to two showers a week and a small and recording their discussions via camera. According to these attorneys still RA seemed very intimidated and uncomfortable even when the COs watched from behind the glass panel. Additionally, since the town of Delphi is rather small with a population of 3000 I assumed that the population of Odinist believers in that area would be very very small, similar to national trends. Going by the defense’s theory, perhaps the alleged conditions suffered by RA are a means to manipulate him into taking the fall for the murders or at least break him mentally and emotionally to reduce his ability to functionally communicate with his attorneys or follow what is going on in court. If that part of their theory was proven true it would have a major impact on the trial and court case overall and possibly be very beneficial for RA and his defense team.

For investigative, strategic and moral/ethical reasons and the desire to win the case or at least address important considerations I think some of these reasons could explain why depos of the CO

Richard Allen's attorney request transfer from Wabash Valley Correctional Facility

Attorneys Robert Scremin and William Lebrato filed the six page motion this week asking for Allen to be moved to a closer location, or their ability to represent Allen may be impacted.

www.wrtv.com

Code of Ethics

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-ca7-12-01509/pdf/USCOURTS-ca7-12-01509-0.pdf

White supremacists are killing in the name of an ancient Nordic religion - The World from PRX

In at least six cases since 2001, professed Odinists have been convicted of plotting, or pulling off, domestic terrorism attacks, according to a review by Reveal from The Center for Investigative Reporting.

theworld.org