Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #179

[mrjitty]

Surely Detective Murphy didn't just answer: "Yeah, you'll be OK" and then drive away.
I cannot imagine any reason for EF to have a non-incriminating explanation for his spit being on the girls' bodies.

March 18, 2024 Motion to Dismiss Hearing.pdf

drive.google.com

Pg 13: SNIP
There was - back in February of 2018, I believe Jerry Holeman and Kevin
Murphy interviewed Elvis Fields at the Rushville Police Department, and when
Detective Murphy took Elvis back to his trailer, Elvis approached Detective
Murphy and said, "Hey, if my spit is found on those girls and Ive got a reason
for why it's there, I'll be okay; correct?"

Something interesting that came up re trial is Click can't testify directly to these alleged statements. The defence will need to call the officer who heard them. Tldr; Elvis never made any statements to Click.

Q Did Elvis Fields make any admissions that you know of about being
involved in the crime?
20 MS. DIENER: Objection. I would ask that those be admissions
21 made to him.
22 THE COURT: Sustained
23 MR BALDWIN: Judge, hearsay - there's a hearsay exception
24 [against interest, and that's - if somebody says that, "I was involved in a crime,"
25 that would be against their interest
THE COURT: To whom?

....
7. MR. BALDWIN. Oh
8. THE COURT That's what I sustained.
9. Q Did - did Elvis - did you ever hear Elvis Fields say anything where he was
10 involved in this crime, as part of your investigation?
11 A Elvis did not say anything to me directly, no
12 Q Did he say anything to Kevin Murphy?
13 A There was - back in February of 2018, I believe Jerry Holeman and Kevin
14 Murphy interviewed Elvis Fields at the Rushville Police Department, and when
15 Detective Murphy took Elvis back to his trailer, Elvis approached Detective
16 Murphy and said, "Hey, if my spit is found on those girls and Ive got a reason
7 for why it's there, I'll be okay; correct?"

 

[FrostedGlass]

Right, instead the hired expert will be working for the defense. We will have 'duelling' experts to muddy the waters.

If the state presents audio of his 5 confessions we will then hear this 25,000 dollar 'expert' explaining why it is not a credible confession. They will not be working for the state but will be working for the defense to the tune of 25k.

Most of the state's experts are paid by salary for their roles---like FBI Agents, Coroners, Medical Examiners, etc. They are not 'shopped' for by the state. The DA investigates the case by meeting with the state's paid employees to uncover the facts and the evidence. These employees are paid to be unbiased and impartial.

The defense is crowdfunding to buy their own experts to rebut the evidence. It will be interesting to see how credible they are.

I'm having a very difficult time understanding why it's a problem for anyone that defense attorneys hire their own experts.

The only thing I see different in this case from others is the measly amount of money the judge is forking over to the defense team to defend their client.

In this high profile double murder case, you can see how little money they have received up to that date in the link below.

Motion for Parity in Resources, To Reconsider the Denial of Anticipated Defense Costs, or to Exclude Evidence

drive.google.com

 

[vinayd]

I'm having a very difficult time understanding why it's a problem for anyone that defense attorneys hire their own experts.

The only thing I see different in this case from others is the measly amount of money the judge is forking over to the defense team to defend their client.

In this high profile double murder case, you can see how little money they have received up to that date in the link below.

Motion for Parity in Resources, To Reconsider the Denial of Anticipated Defense Costs, or to Exclude Evidence

drive.google.com

Got a few more pages to go but wondering… are they submitting the requests before racking up additional expenses? Is there a response from the court on this? I would like to read why it’s been denied.
Also is it fair to compare the investigative costs when the state had a burden to find the killer? I don’t think defense should compare that. MOO… grabbing coffee and back to reading.

 

[Marzipan]

Someone named Ursamajr, Nemophilist put in an expansive listing of items "collected from 1967 Whiteman Dr. Delphi, Indiana and from the car acquired at that property." This is on #164, June 28, 2023. It's a very detailed list and includes these items:

Sealed paper bag containing one winter gray hat with fur like fibers
Sealed paper bag containing one brown fitted cap with a small bill
Sealed paper bag containing one brown Carhartt stocking cap.
Sealed paper bag containing one blue fabric strap, and one blue/green fabric strap
Sealed cardboard box containing a plastic bag containing a custom vehicle operations motorcycle cover bag containing a motorcycle cover
Sealed paper bag containing one Winchester Supreme Elite empty ammo box

So they took two brown caps, one fitted and one Carhartt stocking. The Carhartt stocking is what I think I've been seeing in images of RA in a pool hall. I wonder what the one with the "small bill" looks like.

I think all the “sealed bags” mean that LE left with those items in sealed evidence bags. But I’d like to be sure they aren’t saying the items were in sealed bags when they found them. I’m sure many of you can set me straight. Thanks!

 

[susane7]

Got a few more pages to go but wondering… are they submitting the requests before racking up additional expenses? Is there a response from the court on this? I would like to read why it’s been denied.
Also is it fair to compare the investigative costs when the state had a burden to find the killer? I don’t think defense should compare that. MOO… grabbing coffee and back to reading.

Yesterday, they filed an Notice of Exclusion of Confidential Information. Ex Parte Motion for Public Funding. Not sure what that's mean.

 

[vinayd]

Sounds like they aren’t able to access the funds. Hope we get more info today.

 

[AugustWest]

Yesterday, they filed an Notice of Exclusion of Confidential Information. Ex Parte Motion for Public Funding. Not sure what that's mean.

They were likely relaying personal information of a possible defense witness to the court. The defense wanted the information to be confidential so that the prosecution could not infer the defense's strategy from the information.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I hope this time the P understands this is not for his eyes.

04/01/2024

Motion Filed Ex Parte Motion for Public Funding Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 04/01/2024

 

[mrjitty]

Trial starts in 5 weeks plus change

Seems high time to get into some heavy evidential pre-trial motions?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Good reading for anyone who does not understand Indiana's support for public defenders. It's long. Here are two snips I found interesting; 102 pages to go:

PG 7
You will notice that some of our
strongest recommendations are based on the need
for Indiana public defenders to be truly independent
from judicial authorities. Public defense clients
must be assured that their lawyers are working for
them, not for the courts. We know that no court or
judge desires to interfere with a public defender’s
efforts to provide the effective assistance of counsel
PG 15
Currently, the Commission requires pay parity
with prosecutors for equal work. However, the
Commission has created a subcommittee to
reevaluate this standard, because it is often impossible
to truly compare the work of the prosecutor
with the public defender or appointed counsel.
For example, prosecutors may receive fringe
benefits, such as health insurance, that should not
be used to calculate the hourly rate of pay of a
lawyer who represents citizens on a case-by-case,
appointed counsel basis. While the Commission’s
calculation of minimum pay standards is flawed,
there is an even larger concern in counties outside
the Commission, where there are no minimum
standards for attorney compensation.

https://www.in.gov/publicdefender/files/Indiana-Task-Force-Report.pdf

 

[FrostedGlass]

OK, that is interesting.
That ammo first came out in 2009, it later changed it's name to PDX1 Defender (I guess that's supposed to sound cooler.) It was released in 2 projectile weights for .40 S&W:

• S40SWPDB 40 S&W 165g JHP Bonded
• S40SWPDB1 40 S&W 180g JHP Bonded

Source

I wonder which weight is the most common. It's interesting that weight is not mentioned on the SW return or the Lab exam analysis. I hope they have located the chain of custody, along with photos of the bullet prior to its trip to the lab.

If the ammo found in RA's house and gun is a different weight from the lab bullet, then that's big. Right?

 

[WildHuncher]

I wonder which weight is the most common. It's interesting that weight is not mentioned on the SW return or the Lab exam analysis. I hope they have located the chain of custody, along with photos of the bullet prior to its trip to the lab.

If the ammo found in RA's house and gun is a different weight from the lab bullet, then that's big. Right?

Both weights work in his gun. In 2017 he’s using one weight. Years later, he’s buying the other more often. It probably depends on what’s available and cheaper. So it means basically nothing.

The main point of different weights is how much penetration you’re looking for. How much powder versus how much lead in a fixed cartridge volume. The way the formula for kinetic energy works, the velocity term is squared, so the lighter bullet (which will also have more room in the cartridge for propellant) flies faster, straighter, and penetrates deeper. But there’s such a thing as over penetration, a hazard to whomever or whatever may be behind the target. There tend to be minor differences in felt recoil and accuracy as well.

 

[layer]

If the ammo found in RA's house and gun is a different weight from the lab bullet, then that's big. Right?

My initial impression is that it couldn't do anything to help RA, but it could help the state's case.
JMHO

 

[Tealgrove]

Expert witnesses are hired to give their interpretation based on their level of experience. The State will have a set supporting their theory and the Defense will have a set supporting their theory. One of them will not be accurate and it has been known that many experts are willing to shape their testimony to fit a theory.

Whether they are 'lying' or benefitting in some way from their interpretations will be up to the jury to decide. Both experts cannot be correct, who will be the most credible, knowledgable and believable in the eyes of the jury. That will be the deciding factor when deciding how much weight is given to one expert over the other.

IMO

Ahhh, as always, the voice of reason. Thank you.

MOO

 

[somequestions]

I wonder if some of the witnesses could have been seeing Libby's father.

This is one of the big problems with eyewitness identifications. People only remember they saw someone, but sometimes do not remember the time. If I remember correctly, Liberty German's grandfather and Sargeant (now Lieutenant Holman) were reported as possible bridge guy sightings. There were others too.

Those people were on the trail that day or later, but not during the time the crime happened.

 

[layer]

Something interesting that came up re trial is Click can't testify directly to these alleged statements. The defence will need to call the officer who heard them. Tldr; Elvis never made any statements to Click.

Without a doubt Murphy will be called. I'm sure both sisters that Elvis made confessions/incriminating statements to (which is what initiated the Rushville investigation into Elvis) will also be on the witness list.
JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Both weights work in his gun. In 2017 he’s using one weight. Years later, he’s buying the other more often. It probably depends on what’s available and cheaper. So it means basically nothing.

The main point of different weights is how much penetration you’re looking for. How much powder versus how much lead in a fixed cartridge volume. The way the formula for kinetic energy works, the velocity term is squared, so the lighter bullet (which will also have more room in the cartridge for propellant) flies faster, straighter, and penetrates deeper. But there’s such a thing as over penetration, a hazard to whomever or whatever may be behind the target. There tend to be minor differences in felt recoil and accuracy as well.

I know 0 about guns.
I'm assuming the empty box had the bullet weight on it. If the bullets in RA's gun match the weight on the bullet box BUT don't match the weight of the bullet they tested, wouldn't that make it harder to prove the bullet from the scene was his = "That wasn't my bullet; I only used 165g bullets."

Which weight would LE tend use? Which are more economical for target practicing?

 

[layer]

I know 0 about guns.
I'm assuming the empty box had the bullet weight on it. If the bullets in RA's gun match the weight on the bullet box BUT don't match the weight of the bullet they tested, wouldn't that make it harder to prove the bullet from the scene was his = "That wasn't my bullet; I only used 165g bullets."

Which weight would LE tend use? Which are more economical for target practicing?

Quick fire!
Which weight would LE tend use?
Most LE would probably carry the heavier bullet. Not sure they even make this stuff in a P or +P+ variety.
Which are more economical for target practicing?
Neither for target or economy. Both probably the same price, both kind of odd, in my mind.
I'm assuming the empty box had the bullet weight on it.
Most likely. There could also be a lot# leading to place and date of mfg and other identifying information like a price tag.
Now to the meat!
If the bullets in RA's gun match the weight on the bullet box BUT don't match the weight of the bullet they tested, wouldn't that make it harder to prove the bullet from the scene was his = "That wasn't my bullet; I only used 165g bullets."
Here we go. I know a bit about guns and bullets. To me, this round (.40 S&W) by this mfg (Winchester) in this style (PDX1 bonded) is an... uncommon choice. We really need to learn more about the specifics of the unspent round before we can say much, for all we know it's a Federal HST or Speer GoldDot.

JMHO

 

[WildHuncher]

I know 0 about guns.
I'm assuming the empty box had the bullet weight on it. If the bullets in RA's gun match the weight on the bullet box BUT don't match the weight of the bullet they tested, wouldn't that make it harder to prove the bullet from the scene was his = "That wasn't my bullet; I only used 165g bullets."

Which weight would LE tend use? Which are more economical for target practicing?

Probative value of a years-apart difference in bullet weights would mean nothing even if the accused swears he only uses one weight.

I’m more familiar with the options for .45 cal. Cheap target rounds for practice have the traditional 230 grain round-nosed jacketed bullet once standard for the US military. More expensive “defense” ammo for shooting burglars, looters, and your wife’s lover will often be 180 grains or lighter with some variation on a hollow point.

Not only can you buy one one day and the other the next, but you can interleave them in your magazine if you aren’t sure which ballistics will be the best for you in your next gunfight.

 

[mrjitty]

Without a doubt Murphy will be called. I'm sure both sisters that Elvis made confessions/incriminating statements to (which is what initiated the Rushville investigation into Elvis) will also be on the witness list.
JMO

this is where i am wondering if there will be a pretrial hearing as to whether those statements will be admissible given that Elvis himself is available as the primary witness?