Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #184

[grannygates]

I , myself, have never had a jail or prison experience. I have never visited either place.

I understand that jail is meant to hold people that are awaiting trial and that it will house people that have committed less ergregious crimes.
At least it's what I believe.

So, I have questions:

In Richard Allen's case, what would be different for him?
If he were in jail, would he still be kept away from others?
Would he still be watched 24/7?
If he wasn't, and he tried to end his life, who would be to blame?
If he was assaulted by other inmates, who would be to blame?
Would he not much more likely to be surrounded by Odinist inmates rather than guards that follow Heathenry?
Would he have access to Mental health facilities?
Would he really be safer in a jail?
If so, how?
The biggest issue that I am aware of is transportation.
I don't know, but in his case, it seems that the best option for his personal safety is where he is.

JMO

As far as the mentality of the other prisoners, jail is people are who presumed innocent as they await their trial and prison is inmates convicted of a crime. Jail has more people trying to behave, stay out of trouble and get out of jail but in prison, many are lifers and have nothing to lose. What’s another murder charge if you’re never getting out anyways.

IMO The segregation at a super max prison is for the worst of the worst like pedophiles that the other inmates want to kill. 23 in, 1 out, no interaction with other humans, you’re stuck in a white concrete box all day long. You go crazy. Everyone wants you dead and the guards won’t go out of their way to protect them from jailhouse justice. IMO i think the only reason RA is alive is because he hasn’t gone through the trial yet.

The issue is that a person who should be presumed “innocent” at this time is being held in a manner that’s reserved for the absolute worst of the worst convicted criminals. And you can see it. He looks like he’s going mad IMO.

All my opinion.

 

[sunshineray]

Respectfully,
It was not his attys who put him in prison.
It was not his attys who chose to keep him there.
If he dies in prison, his attys are the last persons anyone should blame.
IMO

Not the last but not the first either. RA has only himself to blame for being where he is and I believe he knows this. His lawyers want the fame of a high profile case. They have shown no discretion and I believe little ethics. IMO, they're a disgrace to their profession and have no real thoughts of their client's well being, just the the notoriety he can bring them...alive or dead. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Not one that we know of but I do think they have something. Maybe they know where he was part of the time between 1:30 and 4 pm. If I ever find the interview I'm looking for, I'll share why I think that.

Yes, it's fair to say he may be guilty or play a part in it. I think about that a lot.

"...but I do think they have something." Who's "they"?

 

[sunshineray]

We read the filings differently but that's just how it is.

Short of organizing a jail break, I don't know what else the D can do to get him out of prison.

Go to trial?

 

[sunshineray]

No. We don't usually let accused murderers out on bond.

What I don't want is to see a man considered innocent, at this point in time, placed in an Indiana Department of Corrections facility = PRISON. This is a big, big difference from being incarcerated in a county jail.

And, just for the record, I don't, for one minute, think that was their only option.
I'm convinced Carroll Co. LE could have called in extra help until LE got his attys and handled the problem properly.

With all that said, IMO there was absolutely no reason why he couldn't have been transferred to Cass Co. and there still is no reason why they can't transfer him right now.

They have 20+ confessions from him, what on earth more do they require?

I believe he'd be dead in a heart beat if he were in a county jail. Do you really think a county jail is safer for an accused double child murderer? I don't, JMO

 

[grannygates]

I believe he'd be dead in a heart beat if he were in a county jail. Do you really think a county jail is safer for an accused double child murderer? I don't, JMO

Yes my opinion is that a county jail is safer than a super max prison

 

[sunshineray]

As far as the mentality of the other prisoners, jail is people are who presumed innocent as they await their trial and prison is inmates convicted of a crime. Jail has more people trying to behave, stay out of trouble and get out of jail but in prison, many are lifers and have nothing to lose. What’s another murder charge if you’re never getting out anyways.

IMO The segregation at a super max prison is for the worst of the worst like pedophiles that the other inmates want to kill. 23 in, 1 out, no interaction with other humans, you’re stuck in a white concrete box all day long. You go crazy. Everyone wants you dead and the guards won’t go out of their way to protect them from jailhouse justice. IMO i think the only reason RA is alive is because he hasn’t gone through the trial yet.

The issue is that a person who should be presumed “innocent” at this time is being held in a manner that’s reserved for the absolute worst of the worst convicted criminals. And you can see it. He looks like he’s going mad IMO.

All my opinion.

And jails have less space, are most likely more overcrowded, have less staff and mental health facilities for an inmate that's acting out and trying to do self harm. County jails most likely have more local criminals from the area they are too. Not all in jails are waiting to have their day in court, some are already sentenced.

 

[sunshineray]

Yes my opinion is that a county jail is safer than a super max prison

Respectfully, that's makes no sense to me.

 

[grannygates]

Respectfully, that's makes no sense to me.

Okay we don’t have to agree. Differing opinions makes for interesting discussion.

 

[Ravenmoon]

As far as the mentality of the other prisoners, jail is people are who presumed innocent as they await their trial and prison is inmates convicted of a crime. Jail has more people trying to behave, stay out of trouble and get out of jail but in prison, many are lifers and have nothing to lose. What’s another murder charge if you’re never getting out anyways.

IMO The segregation at a super max prison is for the worst of the worst like pedophiles that the other inmates want to kill. 23 in, 1 out, no interaction with other humans, you’re stuck in a white concrete box all day long. You go crazy. Everyone wants you dead and the guards won’t go out of their way to protect them from jailhouse justice. IMO i think the only reason RA is alive is because he hasn’t gone through the trial yet.

The issue is that a person who should be presumed “innocent” at this time is being held in a manner that’s reserved for the absolute worst of the worst convicted criminals. And you can see it. He looks like he’s going mad IMO.

All my opinion.

I understand.

My question is/ was
What would be different?

 

[grannygates]

I understand.

My question is/ was
What would be different?

As far at the specific hypothetical questions of how he would be housed, treated, his exposure to odonists, exposure to MH services etc IMO You’d have to look up the specific jail he would be moved to and see if they offer that info to the public or someone talks about it online. Jails are individually governed locally/regionally so they will vary wildly from region to region, private to local govt and IMO probably differ greatly from the written expectation to how they actual operate in real life.


all my own opinion for discussion purposes. not to be perceived as fact.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Yes my opinion is that a county jail is safer than a super max prison

Agree. The entire Wagner family (mom, dad, and 2 adult sons) who killed 8 Rhoden family members, were all housed in County Jails. One is now in an out of state prison. The other 3 are STILL in JAILS even though 2 have been convicted, with the dad not yet in trial or convicted. These were killers who had threatened harm to LE and still went to JAILS.

These murders were in southern Ohio and the county (Pike)is one of the poorest in the state.... yet they had no problems transferring any of the 4. BTW, Pike county doesn't have their own jail. 1 was housed 20 miles away, another approximately 60 miles, the mom close to 80 miles, and dear old dad maybe 85 miles. YET, they made it to court each and every time.
I guess things come together when a team works together.

 

[snooptroop88]

Not the last but not the first either. RA has only himself to blame for being where he is and I believe he knows this. His lawyers want the fame of a high profile case. They have shown no discretion and I believe little ethics. IMO, they're a disgrace to their profession and have no real thoughts of their client's well being, just the the notoriety he can bring them...alive or dead. AJMO

Agreed, honestly. Would this have happened with Lebrato? I doubt it.

 

[mrjitty]

You're welcome. Thanks for listening.

I wanted to take some time to think before responding.

I guess where I am a bit lost on the second motion to dismiss is it just doesn't feel like a legal argument to me. The point of departure is the following factual findings by the Judge following the first motion to dismiss.

In her order published Tuesday, Gull wrote, "As neither ... (men) were suspects at the time the interviews were conducted, the defendant has failed to show that the lost interview of (one of the men) ... was material and that the lack of a recorded interview of ... (the other man) was material. As defendant must establish materiality to claim a denial of due process and Allen had failed to do so, his due process rights have not been violated."

Contrary to popular claims about the Judge never giving the defence a hearing, she in fact gave the defence quite wide scope to show that BH/PW were suspects at the time of their interviews - which the defence failed to discharge. Now obviously it would be a heavy lift if LE really did destroy evidence, but even so ... surely there has to be some evidence as a departure point for 3rd party involvement ... rather than an alibi which in fact rules the guy out as a suspect?

Ref para 83

83.When combined with the evidence contained on Brad Holder’s social
media pages, including images of a rune inked onto Holder’s hand that
mimics the way sticks were formed on Abby’s body, as well as all the other
evidence detailed in Franks I, the ever-changing stories of Brad Holder on
the simple topic of “how many times did you meet Abby Williams?” should
all provide insight into why the defense believes that the missing evidence
contained obviously exculpatory evidence. How could it not?

It feels to me pretty clear that the defence have no evidence liking BH to the crime, while there is an alibi which positively rules him out. So now the pleading is the incriminating evidence must be in the evidence that law enforcement destroyed.

To me this motion to dismiss feels like a retooling of the Franks I. But now the allegation is not just that the Odinists did it, but for some reason law enforcement agencies destroyed all the evidence.

That feels a remarkable allegation?

MOO

 

[Melted]

Franks, Vol 1, p 127:
"They don’t teach you in law school what to do when your client, who is accused of murder, is being guarded by members of a religious cult whose members, evidence strongly supports, were the actual murderers.183 Yet, that is where we are."

Here's the ever-important footnote: "183 Again, the Defense is not claiming that Sgt. Jones and Sgt. Robinson are involved in the murders, just that they are Odinites, members of the same religious cult that evidence strongly supports were involved in the murders of Abby and Libby."

Um, so if you're not claiming that the guards are the murderers, why does this matter? Are you suggesting guilt by association? Are you suggesting prison guards sporting Odinite symbols are like mindless robots, programmed to torment your innocent client RA? What is the implication of this "footnote"?

It's a heavy lift. Again, just leave this very lengthy sentence at this: "They don’t teach you in law school what to do"

I'm not arguing.

These odinists aren’t some religious cult. They are a Neo Nazi white nationalist gang. So you don’t see the problem of the current suspect being guarded by members of the same gang that Patrick Westfall and BH claim? Two people who were early suspects in the case, one who’s son dated Abby and lied to detectives for 7 years about meeting her until a recent deposition where he admitted to meeting her at the other early suspects house?

You truly fail to “see the big deal?”

 

[Melted]

RA doesn’t even have an alibi. Fair to say that he may be guilty of murder or be some part of it?

I think it’s way more than fair to say that he is MOST LIKELY guilty of murder.

At the same time, that doesn’t mean that he is, and if he isn’t then there is someone out there who is. Hell, even if he is, there may still be others out there that are guilty of these murders.

 

[Melted]

Respectfully, that's makes no sense to me.

I have been to county jail and I have been to state prison, albeit never in segregation in either.

At least here in California, with my experiences, county jail is like a boring vacation compared to state prison, which is like a vicious jungle.

 

[Salah11]

Gary Hughes videos I assume are still allowed here and discussed?!

I just watched 20 mins of the video as I was bored on the train.

If his daughter has turned on him that would definitely be intriguing. I have always thought she bore a striking resemblance to Libby and maybe something going on in the home trigged him that day.

I also believe that it would be a lot easier for his daughter to see the truth than a wife who was with him for decades and built a family with him who wouldn’t want to believe a man she devoted her life to could do something so abhorrent.

Mooo

 

[snooptroop88]

These odinists aren’t some religious cult. They are a Neo Nazi white nationalist gang. So you don’t see the problem of the current suspect being guarded by members of the same gang that Patrick Westfall and BH claim? Two people who were early suspects in the case, one who’s son dated Abby and lied to detectives for 7 years about meeting her until a recent deposition where he admitted to meeting her at the other early suspects house?

You truly fail to “see the big deal?”

The issue of this trial centers on whether the D's client, Richard Allen, is Bridge Guy, and guilty of murder. I know the P seems prepared to actively participate in a trial with this focus, which is the appropriate focus. The D has fought tooth and nail to avoid this, despite the fact that RA's guilt hinges on it. That's the question that the murder of two young girls rests on.

What I just said about the murder of two other human beings-- do you truly fail to "see the big deal" in that? Yes, it's something of a loaded question. I'm sure you're feeling at the moment like "Hey, I never said that wasn't a 'big deal!'" Right? And just saying, I'm sure many would feel that way having read your post because that's how you worded it.

Murder is an important issue, and this trial is about murders, two murders of young girls. That's what I see as "the big deal." Bridge Guy did that. This trial is about whether Richard Allen is Bridge Guy and whether he is indeed the murderer. If you want to argue about white nationalist gangs in prisons being a problem, you need to go elsewhere because-- I see it as a problem, and there's no argument on that. I just don't see it as a problem Richard Allen's defense is going to be able to solve because they most likely won't be able to keep their client out of prison for the rest of his life, thanks to their lack of focus on the evidence presented against their client.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Respectfully,
It was not his attys who put him in prison.
It was not his attys who chose to keep him there.
If he dies in prison, his attys are the last persons anyone should blame.
IMO

RA is to blame, he's being detained as a Defendant with double murder charges, and if this story is true, HE'S the one who made the choice. Whether he be incarcerated in jail or IDOC, if RA wants to off himself he will find an opportunity. Happens all the time in jails and prisons around the country.

JMO