Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #188

[Spartygirl]

So my question was/is, was the coroner included in the gag order? IMO they more than likely were/are, but my lazy butt just wanted a "gimmee" answer.

No problem, I will research tomorrow. G'Nite all!!!

YES!!
The coroner is included --see below

Gull issued a gag order in December 2022 barring attorneys, law enforcement officials, court personnel, the coroner and the girls’ family members from commenting on the case to the public or the media in any form, including social media.

Judge delays trial for man charged in 2017 Delphi murders

A judge on Tuesday delayed until October the murder trial of an Indiana man charged in the killings of two teenage girls after the man’s attorneys expressed concerns they would not have adequate time to present their case.

www.nbcchicago.com

 

[photographer4]

No no, sorry! nothing wrong by you! The podcasters are relaying the information out of context in a way to make it sound like these lawyers work for the defense and were giving juror information to random internet sleuths to investigate them, when it’s a group of people talking about how to vet potential future jurors. MOO

Thanks for clarifying! I was worried I had misunderstood the quote!

 

[TTF14]

I’m no expert but I don’t see why not. They’re not using private or priviledged databases. They can only seek public information, like googling someone or looking at their public Facebook page etc. It makes sense to me. If you see someone displaying super strong views publicly (one way or the other) you know they’re probably not impartial, so don’t waste everyones time calling them in. MOO

Sign me up. I can find out the dirt on your neighbor’s ex-husbands new mother-in-law’s college roommate in ten minutes flat!

IMO

 

[photographer4]

I’m no expert but I don’t see why not. They’re not using private or priviledged databases. They can only seek public information, like googling someone or looking at their public Facebook page etc. It makes sense to me. If you see someone displaying super strong views publicly (one way or the other) you know they’re probably not impartial, so don’t waste everyone’s time calling them in. MOO

I believe the lawyers do get the names of potential jurors as well as other basic info like age, occupation, gender, address, name of employer (this one is a maybe). I base this off of having been sent a jury duty notice and questionnaire a few years ago. Maybe it’s not the same where I am? But I’m sure they must because otherwise how would they be able to assess the prospects and determine if they were agreeable to them on the panel or not?

 

[photographer4]

My question was about who can they hire or outsource to do this. Do you have a source/link for how they have to be be employees of the law firm?

Can’t they subcontract out to psychologists etc?

The Who, What & Why of Jury Consultants

Jury consulting is rapidly becoming popular in the legal industry and courtroom but have you ever wondered what exactly jury consultants do or why you should consider using one?

www.opveon.com

 

[MiniMoo]

Or, in my case, not listening at all to the podcast. Hoping a transcript gets released. For those interested, another podcast featuring some of the parties named by MS plans to air their own podcast this evening in response to the MS series on this case. It’s not an approved source so I can’t link or name which one. I won’t listen to that one either for those wondering but hope for a summary or transcript to be released.

Im not listening to anything either - don't mind reading, but don't want to listen to biased views, people witch hunting nor anyone victimising victims and their grieving families.

 

[katydid23]

My question was about who can they hire or outsource to do this. Do you have a source/link for how they have to be be employees of the law firm?

In the high profile murder cases I have followed, the jurors privacy has been protected from the public, for their safety and for the safety of the trial [so no one can reach out to them for obvious reasons]

Because their privacy is highly valued and protected, I am pretty sure that anyone who would be given their names and addresses would have to be verified and vetted by the attorneys, just like if they were sharing private discovery info with someone.

They'd have to sign NDA's at the very least. In the group chat they were talking about getting a group of you tube sleuths that they could send the jurors identities to. I don't think that is a proper way to treat that private information. And it potentially opens them up to things going sideways, if any of the jurors receive unwanted calls or messages, mid-trial. etc

The way some of this strident group behaves makes it very risky for them to have this vital info. IMO

 

[katydid23]

I have always thought that odd also, the different dates of death.
Perhaps Libby's family put that date because it is day she went missing and was killed.
Perhaps Abby's family put her date for the date she was discovered.

IDK... I am also sure they have their reasons and I won't question it.

I remember way back when, during the time the obituary of each were released, we all discussed it. And at one point, Abby's family said publicly they used the date they found her.

 

[katydid23]

I believe the lawyers do get the names of potential jurors as well as other basic info like age, occupation, gender, address, name of employer (this one is a maybe). I base this off of having been sent a jury duty notice and questionnaire a few years ago. Maybe it’s not the same where I am? But I’m sure they must because otherwise how would they be able to assess the prospects and determine if they were agreeable to them on the panel or not?

YES, the attorneys for both sides get that very personal info. But when you fill it out, you assume it is staying within the court and the attorneys private files.

The 'Gang' suggested that the defense duo send all of that very private info to a ragtag group of Discord friends, so they can ALL have that private info to do deep dives on it. How many people would be disseminating your private info in a situation like that?

I totally understand that the defense team would give that info to their assistants or interns to try and vet the potential jurors.

But sending them out to group chat on Discord ? That seems way out of line and was not what the jurors expect when they hand over such private information.

 

[photographer4]

YES, the attorneys for both sides get that very personal info. But when you fill it out, you assume it is staying within the court and the attorneys private files.

The 'Gang' suggested that the defense duo send all of that very private info to a ragtag group of Discord friends, so they can ALL have that private info to do deep dives on it. How many people would be disseminating your private info in a situation like that?

I totally understand that the defense team would give that info to their assistants or interns to try and vet the potential jurors.

But sending them out to group chat on Discord ? That seems way out of line and was not what the jurors expect when they hand over such private information.

It doesn’t sound like the D accepted any such offer for this though? It sounds like people discussed it but it didn’t become an actual plan or actioned in any way.

Doing so would have been very bad for sure. But discussing the concept? Meh. They can have their fantasy strategy all they want. But throwing the idea out doesn’t mean that they’d ever do it for real.

We hope. Right??

 

[Boxer]

BBM
Right-- and who didn't show up for the D team in their Youtube show to "set the record" straight ?? CM--that's who.

They are lying liars that lie = circus clowns =unprofessional and Unethical individuals.

While I feel that prosecutors have the right guy=BG=RA, I do kind of feel sorry for RA having these a$s hats as his defense attys.

Agree.

 

[grannygates]

From what I’m reading the contractors who do jury vetting are PI firms who hire skip tracers, which makes sense. These skip tracers have to have a high school diploma and a clean criminal record check. They work under the company’s umbrella licence so they don’t need a personal licence. I’m not sure if it’s the same in Indiana this is just a quick look MOO

Jury Vetting - Nighthawk Strategies

nighthawkstrategies.com

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Nighthawk-Investigations/job-titles/Locator

License Requirements for Skip Tracers

Skip tracers locate individuals on behalf of collection agencies, lawyers and private investigator firms. They use skip tracing techniques such as database searches or contacting the missing person's neighbors. Most states require private investigators hired as skip tracers to be licensed.

work.chron.com

 

[MollyDDD]

YES!!
The coroner is included --see below

Gull issued a gag order in December 2022 barring attorneys, law enforcement officials, court personnel, the coroner and the girls’ family members from commenting on the case to the public or the media in any form, including social media.

Judge delays trial for man charged in 2017 Delphi murders

A judge on Tuesday delayed until October the murder trial of an Indiana man charged in the killings of two teenage girls after the man’s attorneys expressed concerns they would not have adequate time to present their case.

www.nbcchicago.com

A question for the more seasoned sleuth's here…would you say that most criminal cases have as strict gag orders as this case?

 

[mrjitty]

The third MS episode with PM is certainly very interesting. The short story is that in this one instance, MH (the defense team's investigator) was asked why they only used photographic evidence of the crime scene in the Franks memo and not the autopsy report. MH's alleged response was that they didn't feel the autopsy report was accurate, so they just used the photographs.

It does tend to fit the pattern that a few of us here have suspected, where the defense words things a certain way, omits information, makes pretty bold claims that don't really withstand scrutiny, in order to put on what amounts to a public show via court filings. The autopsy report doesn't fit their narrative so they just... don't use it. They use photographs that only tell one very basic part of the story, and seem to infer a whole lot from those photographs.

The Delphi Murders: The Secret Messages of the Delphi Defense’s Brain Trust: Part Three: A Conversation with Paul Mannion on Truth and True Crime

Members of Richard Allen’s defense team have worked hand-in-hand with internet cranks in order to sway the public narrative of the case, smear perceived...

murdersheetpodcast.com

This point is very well made and illustrates a meta point that can get easily get lost.

Why is a D consultant engaging in online discussions with conspiracists of dubious standing and sharing information with them? How can these 'investigations' possibly assist the defendant? It's not as if any of these amateurs hold any secrets to the case - it is MH himself that holds that confidential information.

MH is paid for by the tax payer!

Then when there is yet another leak, CW and co are moaning - when it is their own negligence that led to this ... AGAIN!

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

They can offer suggestions such as “have you considered filing X? Because there was a case the set precedent back in 1901 etc etc”

I think the thing that is ethically uncomfortable here is the way BM and co keep trying to have it both ways. Remember with the original MW scandal, it was raised on here, and in Court by DH, that lawyers routinely strategise with outsiders, mentors and confidantes. That is fine and often those people will be other lawyers. However it is not without risk, because if that person leaks or is careless, then you can be in a world of pain.

Where the BM thing stretches credibility IMO, is that B&R are not just strategising with an outsider. They are talking with a guy who livestreams the case. Remember B&R are not allowed to discuss the case in the media. So then they discuss the case with a guy who is obvious media ...

So of course BM can come up with contorted ways that this is actually all fine - but i don't see why we should believe it when we know what he was saying in that group. In the end it's disappointing that all the suspicions about him turned out to be true - but he's not an attorney on this case. So whatever.

B&R are the attorney's on the case and IMO the only obvious conclusion is that all the suspicions from the MW scandal are now confirmed. The Defence is directly plugged into the most conspiratorial corners of the internet. If they were just strategising, their surrogates wouldn't be connected with these types of people. and these leaks wouldn't keep happening.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

I’m no expert but I don’t see why not. They’re not using private or priviledged databases. They can only seek public information, like googling someone or looking at their public Facebook page etc. It makes sense to me. If you see someone displaying super strong views publicly (one way or the other) you know they’re probably not impartial, so don’t waste everyones time calling them in. MOO

If you listen to the three podcasts you'd see that was NOT how the conversations went. There was talk of doing illegal searches/manipulations online to find out things about potential jurors, private citizens...handing over jurors questionnaires to a true crime youtuber in Carolina and probably whomever they drafted to help them. We're not talking professionals that are to vet jurors. We're talking unvetted people themselves possibly getting people's private info to spread around and share with who knows who. Is that the way it's suppose to be done?

https://murdersheetpodcast.com/

 

[katydid23]

It doesn’t sound like the D accepted any such offer for this though? It sounds like people discussed it but it didn’t become an actual plan or actioned in any way.

Two of the people discussing it were attorneys working with B and R. CW took the brilliant idea to them but they said NO. So you are right, it didn't happen, but this group tried to make it happen.

Doing so would have been very bad for sure. But discussing the concept? Meh. They can have their fantasy strategy all they want. But throwing the idea out doesn’t mean that they’d ever do it for real.

They would have if they were given the green light.

We hope. Right??

Right.

 

[grannygates]

A question for the more seasoned sleuth's here…would you say that most criminal cases have as strict gag orders as this case?

My opinion, it’s not uncommon and it makes sense. It just means people working the case shouldnt make public statements like do news interviews, hold press conferences or post about it on social media. For an example, Kohlberger has a gag order that gives the same idea, but JJ goes into greater detail of what is allowed and not allowed. (I’m not sure if this is the most recent for BK but Im linking it for comparison) MOO

RA gag order:

https://www.scribd.com/document/611841732/Richard-Allen-Gag-Order

BK gag order:

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/06232023+Revised+Amended+Nondissemination+Order.pdf

ETA: I found the template for requesting a gag order in Indiana.

https://secure.in.gov/ipdc/files/Motion-for-Gag-Order.pdf

NM motion for the gag:

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Gag-order-Delphi-Nov-22.pdf

Daybell gag order:

https://www.scribd.com/document/718087723/Court-issued-gag-order-in-Chad-Guy-Daybell-trial

 

[katydid23]

Who signed an NDA?

Michael Ausbrook was offered an NDA to sign if he wanted to see the FULL video taken by Libby of Bridge Guy. He said he refused the invitation.

 

[Sillybilly]

I remember way back when, during the time the obituary of each were released, we all discussed it. And at one point, Abby's family said publicly they used the date they found her.

Also could be the time the coroner actually declared each individual deceased.

from: Found Deceased - 11-year-old Livingston, TX Girl - Audrii Cunningham - *ARREST* #2

"In my experience of being on WS for many years, and as indicated by other members, typically, when the precise date and time of death is not known, it will be established from when the coroner first attends and determines that the individual is in fact deceased."