Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #188

[Emma Peel]

????
How is this relevant to RA?

Heck, did I mess up? I deleted ... until I find what I thought I found.
(Thank you Twall!)

 

[sunshineray]

Lol, nice try. Thankfully bait is not my style.

It certainly wasn't a baited question, I'm sorry you took it that way.

 

[ClearAhead]

Can someone please remind me of what is the missing exculpatory evidence? And how does defense know it exists and is now missing?

I’ve lost the point of debate in this discussion as well. What is it that the D hasn’t been given which they already know will result in a guilty verdict against RA?

According to this link, Brady violations typically occur when exculpatory evidence is withheld which would’ve made a difference to the outcome of the trial.

Brady rule

www.law.cornell.edu

To be considered a violation, there are four aspects to the test.

1. “Reasonable probability” is a question of whether the government’s failure to disclose this information undermines confidence in the outcome of the trial.
2. “Reasonable probability” is not a sufficiency of evidence test and the defendant does not need to show that the evidence, barring any evidence undermined by the withheld information, is inadequate to support a conviction. Rather, the defendant merely must show that the withheld information can reasonably be taken to put the whole case in a different light.
3. Failure to disclose information which has a reasonable probability of changing the outcome of the trial is inherently harmful, thus there is no need for a separate harmless error review.
4. All information not disclosed must be considered collectively, not item by item.

 

[Salah11]

I was thinking about the Podcasts again and the vile attacks on the poor families of Libby and Abby.
Its no wonder these people decided to use the hashtag "justiceforabbyandlibby" when fundraising for RA, as they clearly have zero respect for what the family have gone through.

Moo

 

[m00c0w]

The third MS episode with PM is certainly very interesting. The short story is that in this one instance, MH (the defense team's investigator) was asked why they only used photographic evidence of the crime scene in the Franks memo and not the autopsy report. MH's alleged response was that they didn't feel the autopsy report was accurate, so they just used the photographs.

It does tend to fit the pattern that a few of us here have suspected, where the defense words things a certain way, omits information, makes pretty bold claims that don't really withstand scrutiny, in order to put on what amounts to a public show via court filings. The autopsy report doesn't fit their narrative so they just... don't use it. They use photographs that only tell one very basic part of the story, and seem to infer a whole lot from those photographs.

The Delphi Murders: The Secret Messages of the Delphi Defense’s Brain Trust: Part Three: A Conversation with Paul Mannion on Truth and True Crime

Members of Richard Allen’s defense team have worked hand-in-hand with internet cranks in order to sway the public narrative of the case, smear perceived...

murdersheetpodcast.com

 

[m00c0w]

I’ve lost the point of debate in this discussion as well. What is it that the D hasn’t been given which they already know will result in a guilty verdict against RA?

According to this link, Brady violations typically occur when exculpatory evidence is withheld which would’ve made a difference to the outcome of the trial.

Brady rule

www.law.cornell.edu

To be considered a violation, there are four aspects to the test.

1. “Reasonable probability” is a question of whether the government’s failure to disclose this information undermines confidence in the outcome of the trial.
2. “Reasonable probability” is not a sufficiency of evidence test and the defendant does not need to show that the evidence, barring any evidence undermined by the withheld information, is inadequate to support a conviction. Rather, the defendant merely must show that the withheld information can reasonably be taken to put the whole case in a different light.
3. Failure to disclose information which has a reasonable probability of changing the outcome of the trial is inherently harmful, thus there is no need for a separate harmless error review.
4. All information not disclosed must be considered collectively, not item by item.

The issue the defense has raised is over basically four points of data as I understand it - the 2017 interview with BH, a subsequent interview with BH, a cellular extraction report of BH's phone, and a screenshot from BH's Facebook page.

The prosecution readily admits that the recording of the first 2017 interview was inadvertantly deleted, but that there are written reports of the content of the interview. The prosecution says they can't find a time when there was a recorded subsequent interview, and that it probably doesn't exist. Same for the cell phone extraction - there's apparently no record of BH's phone ever being dumped. The last claim, the defense has a copy of the photograph so Brady doesn't apply at this point (it only applies to things the defense can't get in any other way).

All JMO

 

[photographer4]

The third MS episode with PM is certainly very interesting. The short story is that in this one instance, MH (the defense team's investigator) was asked why they only used photographic evidence of the crime scene in the Franks memo and not the autopsy report. MH's alleged response was that they didn't feel the autopsy report was accurate, so they just used the photographs.

It does tend to fit the pattern that a few of us here have suspected, where the defense words things a certain way, omits information, makes pretty bold claims that don't really withstand scrutiny, in order to put on what amounts to a public show via court filings. The autopsy report doesn't fit their narrative so they just... don't use it. They use photographs that only tell one very basic part of the story, and seem to infer a whole lot from those photographs.

The Delphi Murders: The Secret Messages of the Delphi Defense’s Brain Trust: Part Three: A Conversation with Paul Mannion on Truth and True Crime

Members of Richard Allen’s defense team have worked hand-in-hand with internet cranks in order to sway the public narrative of the case, smear perceived...

murdersheetpodcast.com

Again I ask, why does anyone aside b & r and their client RA even know that they have a private investigator working on this case? Is that who MH is supposed to be? I haven’t and won’t listen to the he podcasts so forgive me if I’ve missed something here.

B&R filed an ex parte motion at the begin to request the funding for a PI. As I recall, she sealed her ruling on this matter. So isn’t it a huge problem for B&R if *they* have disclosed there is in fact a PI working on this case for them? Or are they immune if:
- the judge denied the motion and they paid for this however they did without using state funds?
- the investigator revealed himself to others - wouldn’t that be in contravention of the seal by JG (again, if he’s paid by state funds).

Delphi murder suspect files motion to use public funds to hire a private investigator

Attorneys for Richard Allen, the Delphi murders suspect, either has hired a private investigator or will hire one soon.

www.jconline.com

 

[Salah11]

The third MS episode with PM is certainly very interesting. The short story is that in this one instance, MH (the defense team's investigator) was asked why they only used photographic evidence of the crime scene in the Franks memo and not the autopsy report. MH's alleged response was that they didn't feel the autopsy report was accurate, so they just used the photographs.

It does tend to fit the pattern that a few of us here have suspected, where the defense words things a certain way, omits information, makes pretty bold claims that don't really withstand scrutiny, in order to put on what amounts to a public show via court filings. The autopsy report doesn't fit their narrative so they just... don't use it. They use photographs that only tell one very basic part of the story, and seem to infer a whole lot from those photographs.

The Delphi Murders: The Secret Messages of the Delphi Defense’s Brain Trust: Part Three: A Conversation with Paul Mannion on Truth and True Crime

Members of Richard Allen’s defense team have worked hand-in-hand with internet cranks in order to sway the public narrative of the case, smear perceived...

murdersheetpodcast.com

Yep this is why is one reason why I am adamant that RA’s confessions to Wife and his Mum ( I believe it was) haven’t been mentioned by his team. Because it doesn’t fit their agenda and there is stuff in them that damages their case.

They have totally glossed over them yet have used other confessions to say they don’t match up to the crime scene. So why skip over these confessions to his loved ones?!

IMO

 

[photographer4]

Yep this is why is one reason why I am adamant that RA’s confessions to Wife and his Mum ( I believe it was) haven’t been mentioned by his team. Because it doesn’t fit their agenda and there is stuff in them that damages their case.

They have totally glossed over them yet have used other confessions to say they don’t match up to the crime scene. So why skip over these confessions to his loved ones?!

IMO

The confessions will be interesting to learn more about. Will the D argue that LE fed him details not known to the public directly or indirectly? If so, how? When?

 

[TTF14]

Yep this is why is one reason why I am adamant that RA’s confessions to Wife and his Mum ( I believe it was) haven’t been mentioned by his team. Because it doesn’t fit their agenda and there is stuff in them that damages their case.

They have totally glossed over them yet have used other confessions to say they don’t match up to the crime scene. So why skip over these confessions to his loved ones?!

IMO

In all of the cases I have followed, I've never seen defense attorneys discuss things that inculpate their client, especially not before the trial even starts lol. I don't know why that would be expected in this case (or considered to be nefarious that it isn't happening).

These are very experienced attorneys. They know what they're doing.

IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

Again I ask, why does anyone aside b & r and their client RA even know that they have a private investigator working on this case? Is that who MH is supposed to be? I haven’t and won’t listen to the he podcasts so forgive me if I’ve missed something here.

B&R filed an ex parte motion at the begin to request the funding for a PI. As I recall, she sealed her ruling on this matter. So isn’t it a huge problem for B&R if *they* have disclosed there is in fact a PI working on this case for them? Or are they immune if:
- the judge denied the motion and they paid for this however they did without using state funds?
- the investigator revealed himself to others - wouldn’t that be in contravention of the seal by JG (again, if he’s paid by state funds).

Delphi murder suspect files motion to use public funds to hire a private investigator

Attorneys for Richard Allen, the Delphi murders suspect, either has hired a private investigator or will hire one soon.

www.jconline.com

I asked yesterday who MH was when someone used those initials, but I don't believe I received an answer. Links should be provided when posting things like that.

IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

The prosecution readily admits that the recording of the first 2017 interview was inadvertantly deleted, but that there are written reports of the content of the interview.

Not good enough. And totally sus.

I'm interviewing someone in 45 minutes. I'll be recording the conversation. Why? Because I don't know shorthand and won't be able to write the piece I need to without referencing a recording. Our brains can only hold so much, and especially in a criminal investigation, every single word and detail matters.

I'll eat my words if we find out the person who conducted the interview has an eidetic memory.

IMO MOO

 

[Spartygirl]

I asked yesterday who MH was when someone used those initials, but I don't believe I received an answer. Links should be provided when posting things like that.

IMO MOO

All that info is in the MS podcasts that you don't want to listen to and we have been discussing the past 2 days. JMO

 

[m00c0w]

Again I ask, why does anyone aside b & r and their client RA even know that they have a private investigator working on this case? Is that who MH is supposed to be? I haven’t and won’t listen to the he podcasts so forgive me if I’ve missed something here.

B&R filed an ex parte motion at the begin to request the funding for a PI. As I recall, she sealed her ruling on this matter. So isn’t it a huge problem for B&R if *they* have disclosed there is in fact a PI working on this case for them? Or are they immune if:
- the judge denied the motion and they paid for this however they did without using state funds?
- the investigator revealed himself to others - wouldn’t that be in contravention of the seal by JG (again, if he’s paid by state funds).

Delphi murder suspect files motion to use public funds to hire a private investigator

Attorneys for Richard Allen, the Delphi murders suspect, either has hired a private investigator or will hire one soon.

www.jconline.com

I asked yesterday who MH was when someone used those initials, but I don't believe I received an answer. Links should be provided when posting things like that.

IMO MOO

Matt Hoffman. He is mentioned several times in the Franks memo. The very first sentence on page 122 states he's been a member of the defense team since December 2022, for instance.

 

[nadia90]

All that info is in the MS podcasts that you don't want to listen to and we have been discussing the past 2 days. JMO

Smh oh well thank you for the information. Some Selective listening going on in here.

 

[Salah11]

Not good enough. And totally sus.

I'm interviewing someone in 45 minutes. I'll be recording the conversation. Why? Because I don't know shorthand and won't be able to write the piece I need to without referencing a recording. Our brains can only hold so much, and especially in a criminal investigation, every single word and detail matters.

I'll eat my words if we find out the person who conducted the interview has an eidetic memory.

IMO MOO

Mistakes happen!

 

[m00c0w]

Not good enough. And totally sus.

I'm interviewing someone in 45 minutes. I'll be recording the conversation. Why? Because I don't know shorthand and won't be able to write the piece I need to without referencing a recording. Our brains can only hold so much, and especially in a criminal investigation, every single word and detail matters.

I'll eat my words if we find out the person who conducted the interview has an eidetic memory.

IMO MOO

I'm not sure it's "sus", but I can agree it's definitely not the same as having the recording itself.

I do feel like the defense will be fighting an uphill battle in trying to show the interview would be exculpatory in some way, especially when BH has an alibi (already miles ahead of RA with that alone) and there's virtually no evidence that I'm aware of connecting him to the crime in question. If people hem and haw about a forensically linked bullet, suggesting that maybe someone else with a .40 caliber Sig Sauer P226 could have also been in the area and just happened to lose a round in between the girls, and then use that to state there is no actual evidence tying RA to the murder (conveniently leaving out all of the circumstantial evidence)... then a couple of weird Facebook posts absolutely do not link BH to the murder and there is zero actual evidence he had anything to do with anything.

JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

The issue the defense has raised is over basically four points of data as I understand it - the 2017 interview with BH, a subsequent interview with BH, a cellular extraction report of BH's phone, and a screenshot from BH's Facebook page.

The prosecution readily admits that the recording of the first 2017 interview was inadvertantly deleted, but that there are written reports of the content of the interview. The prosecution says they can't find a time when there was a recorded subsequent interview, and that it probably doesn't exist. Same for the cell phone extraction - there's apparently no record of BH's phone ever being dumped. The last claim, the defense has a copy of the photograph so Brady doesn't apply at this point (it only applies to things the defense can't get in any other way).

All JMO

Thank you for your reply, I should’ve guessed. So much time and energy wasted in weakly trying to prove someone else is guilty for the criminal act which their client is accused of committing. MOO

 

[Stella Stiletto]

Motta, Wienecke, Ausbrook addressing issues brought up in MS podcast. Cain and Greenlee (MS) were invited, but don't know if they responded. Defense Diaries YouTube channel at 5pm EDT tonight.

Mods, not sure if this is allowed. Delete if it isn't appropriate. No offense taken if you do.

 

[TTF14]

Matt Hoffman. He is mentioned several times in the Franks memo. The very first sentence on page 122 states he's been a member of the defense team since December 2022, for instance.

Thank you!