Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #188

[TTF14]

Boy oh boy I really want to hear just what was found on RA's devices. Something gleaned from that search warrant has had RA's defense in a panic from the start. JMO

If he's guilty, I think there has to be a connection to that Dropbox. My interest in knowing who all is in that Dropbox isn't even matched with my interest in knowing who was on Epstein's plane. Maybe there's even some crossover.

IMO MOO

 

[katydid23]

Maybe. If the two are linked, I am surprised RA doesn't have any CSAM charges, though. If RA is guilty, I do think there has to be a connection, but the lack of charges (or mention of KAK at all) makes me confused.

IMO MOO

Charges can always be added on later. Is it possible the State didn't want to reveal the prior connection to KAK, for strategic legal reasons?

 

[katydid23]

The girls were reported to have gone missing almost 24 hours before their bodies were reported to be found. Do we know when it was even determined for sure what their time of death was?

I think the brutal injuries would be evidence enough that they both died quickly.

 

[sunshineray]

It may have been something of a knee-jerk reaction when they first came on the case and read all of the discovery from the State, which included all the EF, BH, PW stuff. I mean, it IS compelling when you factor in the lengths that Ferency, Click, and Murphy went to and that Click at least was surprised to hear RA was arrested because of what their investigation uncovered. Add to that the mountains of "lost" evidence and the State not turning over discovery in a timely manner, they thought there had to be more to this story.

I suspect that over time, the more investigating they have done on their own, their theory may have shifted to something more like "it was staged to LOOK like heathenism, and these guys (BH et al.) were easy targets."

I'm ready for a Perry Mason moment during or after the trial.

IMO MOO

Ha! I've been saying that forever, the scene could have been staged to look like the Norse stuff by someone familiar with the trails and outlying woods all along Deer Creek where they may have seen such things laid out. I can't believe we actually agree on this

 

[sunshineray]

This sure is a popular opinion about defense attorneys! Thank God some attorneys have the fortitude.

I would not describe that what RA's team has is fortitude, more like misplaced and risky bravado in my interpretation. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

How does a gag order impact what they'd put in court filings?

Their stategy might.

 

[Ravenmoon]

@Ravenmoon Hey there, good to see you again!

Exculpatory evidence is simply "evidence, such as a statement, tending to excuse, justify, or absolve the alleged fault or guilt of a defendant." See: exculpatory evidence

An alleged confession from a third party would be exculpatory evidence and would always remain such. An alibi would obviously make the confession less likely, and thus needs to be weighed against each other to determine which is more credible. This would be a fact question for a jury.

In the instant case (meaning State v. Allen), Judge Gull must first determine whether the defense has grounds for a third-party defense.

• If the answer is "yes they do," then evidence of third-party confession is admitted, which the prosecution would rebut the exculpatory evidence with alibi evidence at trial. The jury would weigh the competing evidence, and make whatever decision they feel appropriate.
• If the answer is "No nexus for third-party defense, then any other "Odinists with verified alibis" is not relevant evidence, and thus inadmissible.

The issues of third-party defense and exculpatory evidence are obviously intertwined, and seeing the timing of the various determinations is important.

1. Make determination whether evidence is exculpatory.
2. Determine relevance of evidence (judge determines).
3. Determine any exceptions for excluding relevant evidence (judge determines).
4. Admit/Deny admission of evidence (judge determines).
5. Determine whether exculpatory relevant evidence is credible (i.e. is alleged confession reliable? Is confessor alibi reliable?) (Jury determines).

I know this is a convoluted answer, but I felt it important to show the order of determination of the issues to adequately answer you. If I didn't even come close to answering your question, I apologize. It always stays exculpatory though.

Edit: added "confessor" to alibi

Thank you! I appreciate your explanation.

So, hypothetically speaking ( because I don't have available links) if each person was able to provide alibis, and each alibi was fully and exhaustively checked and verified, then this is no longer of exculpatory value?

I know that EF allegedly made incriminating statements, I get that. But, if he back pedaled and showed that he was nowhere in the vicinity, then this would no longer be considered exculpatory, correct?

He has the mental capacity of a7 to 8 year old, and I believe his sister also has some developmental disabilities as well. Also, if the sister is to be believed, he NEVER said he killed anyone. He claimed to have be present and spit on AW. He also says he put horns on her head, which, by the way, was never a real thing. People that viewed the crime scene photos say that there were branches everywhere and none were placed purposely to mimic horns.


All can be found in the Franks Memorandum.

My sense and understanding is that all of these men were covered, alibis verified and LE moved on.

I do appreciate your legal expertise!

Edited to say and add:

If EF claimed to have been in the company of these other individuals and they simply could not have been in that place at that time, wouldn't that further weaken the claims that he was there?

 

[sunshineray]

I think he may as well. And if he does, the D better be ready cause that guy seems to lie.

Yes that he can. Hopefully electronic records (not just KAK's) may be involved overall, if KAK is called to testify. Just guessing

 

[sunshineray]

Maybe. If the two are linked, I am surprised RA doesn't have any CSAM charges, though. If RA is guilty, I do think there has to be a connection, but the lack of charges (or mention of KAK at all) makes me confused.

IMO MOO

It could be something that's coming? I don't know, just a thought.

 

[sunshineray]

The girls were reported to have gone missing almost 24 hours before their bodies were reported to be found. Do we know when it was even determined for sure what their time of death was?

I've not seen a coroner's report yet...under seal I'm guessing.

 

[sunshineray]

If he's guilty, I think there has to be a connection to that Dropbox. My interest in knowing who all is in that Dropbox isn't even matched with my interest in knowing who was on Epstein's plane. Maybe there's even some crossover.

IMO MOO

I think Epstein flew in higher circles than KAK. There was a documentary, I think on Netflix, that briefly showed some of the planes flight logs...some big names.

 

[TTF14]

My sense and understanding is that all of these men were covered, alibis verified and LE moved on.

RS(and butting in)BM

This is why time of death will be crucial.

The girls were reportedly dropped off between 1:38 and 1:49 on the 13th (two different times given).

They reportedly weren't found that night despite extensive searching all over the area.

The bodies were reportedly found noonish the next day.

None of us have seen the autopsy report, which hopefully pinpoints time of death, stomach contents, etc.

LE has never commented on time of death.

Libby's phone pinged around 4:33AM. (https://fox59.com/indiana-news/less...maneuvering-continues-in-delphi-murder-trial/)

Without a precise time of death, alibis mean nothing, IMO.

IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

I think Epstein flew in higher circles than KAK. There was a documentary, I think on Netflix, that briefly showed some of the planes flight logs...some big names.

I'm not implying KAK was friends with Epstein. Just that this Dropbox could have some big names in it.

 

[Ravenmoon]

RS(and butting in)BM

This is why time of death will be crucial.

The girls were reportedly dropped off between 1:38 and 1:49 on the 13th (two different times given).

They reportedly weren't found that night despite extensive searching all over the area.

The bodies were reportedly found noonish the next day.

None of us have seen the autopsy report, which hopefully pinpoints time of death, stomach contents, etc.

LE has never commented on time of death.

Libby's phone pinged around 4:33AM. (https://fox59.com/indiana-news/less...maneuvering-continues-in-delphi-murder-trial/)

Without a precise time of death, alibis mean nothing, IMO.

IMO MOO

I have no link, so go ahead and report away if you want.

It was said from early on that the girls were dead by 3:30 PM on February 13th, 2017.
It's been discussed many times, so maybe someone can provide a link for you.
Maybe it isn't necessary since it's been discussed often.

 

[photographer4]

Is he actually a "private investigator" or just an investigator that gathers info. routinely for them? Is there a difference?

I would think so. A private investigator is licensed. So they take - course or courses and pass an exam to learn about the profession and laws around the work they’ll be doing. An investigator child be paid or volunteer but has no actual credentials / accreditation.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Cara Wieneke has chosen not to appear on the Bob Motta show.

Curiouser and curiouser.

JMO

 

[photographer4]

Ha! I've been saying that forever, the scene could have been staged to look like the Norse stuff by someone familiar with the trails and outlying woods all along Deer Creek where they may have seen such things laid out. I can't believe we actually agree on this

Something I have wondered: is it possible some of the “staging” of the scene were done ahead of time? Eg: the branch cut earlier, symbols made and left before the kids were ever there?

 

[TTF14]

I have no link, so go ahead and report away if you want.

It was said from early on that the girls were dead by 3:30 PM on February 13th, 2017.
It's been discussed many times, so maybe someone can provide a link for you.
Maybe it isn't necessary since it's been discussed often.

I've looked for a link, too. It doesn't exist. So, rumor.

IMO MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

I've looked for a link, too. It doesn't exist. So, rumor.

IMO MOO

No. It's not.
I will find it.

 

[TTF14]

No. It's not.
I will find it.

It's possible it's in the long list of things people swore they heard/read that have been scrubbed. I'm not being sarcastic. There are many things I wish I could find links for that I know were said, quite publicly, but they have disappeared.

IMO MOO