Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #190

[susane7]

Did MS talk about the BG video and photos of bridge and Abby at all?

Yes, I am still listening lol. Nick talked a bit about geofencing and said it isn't a reliable science beause it can be wrong for a few meters or thousand meters, so prosecutors can't use it for probable cause.

A witness for the prosecutor because he extracted information from Libby's phone including the BG's video talked about the video. The video beggins at 2:13:51 and lasted 43 seconds. Libby's phone had an app health data was able to track movement. Didn't track movement if people are in the car but if people are walking. The phone was moving until 2:32 pm. It didn't move after that time. In cross Auger tried to say if it wasn't possible the girls had went to a car and she also talked about messages and etc. According to MS it was confusing. Nick, Judge Gull, etc didn't understand what she was trying to say.

 

[Megnut]

Isn't the nature of snapchat that images aren't saved on phones but on snapchat servers?

Jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

Isn't the nature of snapchat that images aren't saved on phones but on snapchat servers?

Jmo

I don't understand the debate. The video and images exist. What is the defense's point?

jmo

 

[girlhasnoname]

Let me correct a misspelling of the other organization AB was trying to retain as Odin Expert, it's Troth, not Toth. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[vinayd]

Isn't the nature of snapchat that images aren't saved on phones but on snapchat servers?

Jmo

That is my understanding. I don't use the app much but when you take a photo or video there is an option to download it to your device, it doesn't happen automatically. Most people just post it directly to the app.

 

[katydid23]

I don't understand the debate. The video and images exist. What is the defense's point?

jmo

I think they want them suppressed because of the way they were captured or found on the phone---they had to use some process of some kind to retrieve them maybe? Don't know why that would mean they should be suppressed though?

 

[TTF14]

Does anyone remember if the empty bridge photo was uploaded to Snapchat?

 

[katydid23]

Does anyone remember if the empty bridge photo was uploaded to Snapchat?

Yes, it was, IIRC. But I don't see how that would matter. LE was able to retrieve it somehow, so what difference would that make?

 

[girlhasnoname]

AH, BH's ex wife on stand, she actually practices the Old Norse Gods religion. BH actually adopted her religion because he came from a Christian family. Interesting tidbit there.

At approx 42:00 min mark:

The Delphi Murders: Three Days of Pretrial Hearings: Day Three

 

[Salah11]

Live blog: Day 3 of hearings for Delphi murders suspect

For a refresher on the Delphi murders trial and what will be discussed in the hearings, see the “RECAP” section of the live blog. Follow along here for a live observation of the hearing — in and outside of the courthouse. 8:50 p.m. Dueling theories of the case are on full display from the...

wishtv.com

According to I-Team 8’s Kody Fisher, prosecutors called a blood spatter expert to refute defenses claims that the blood on tree was a painted rune. The blood was a transfer stain and not painted, but the expert couldn’t say exactly who (Libby or the killer) was responsible for transferring the blood to the tree

So another ridiculous theory from the defense that it was a painted “F” on the tree is again not true.

Mooo

 

[Yemelyan]

Information about "undoing" as an offender behavior at crime scenes:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317501193_Undoing_or_Symbolic_Reversal_at_Homicide_Crime_Scenes

A closed case file review of a nonrandom national sample of 975 homicides disclosed 11 cases (1.13%) of undoing, wherein offenders engaged in crime scene behavior that has been considered an attempt to symbolically reverse the murder. The frequency of the various methods of undoing involved the use of blankets to cover the victim's body (55%), positioning the body (55%), use of a bed or couch (42%), washing the body (36%), using pillows (36%), as well as removing clothing and adding other types of adornments (27%). Ten of the 11 offenders were male, and one was female; all 12 victims were female. Ten of the 12 victims were family members or relationship intimates. These findings are consistent with prior reports which concluded that the motivation for undoing behavior is an attempt to compensate for guilt or remorse for having committed the homicide.

Edit to add a little more info, this is from a paper that quotes the linked article above extensively: https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1265&context=jj_etds

Like staging and posing, undoing is a form of alteration of the crime scene (Russell et al.,2018). However, in undoing the offender does not alter the crime scene in order to mislead the investigation, to gain sexual gratification, or to shock the discoverers of the body, but rather to symbolically reverse the homicide (Russell et al., 2018; Schröer & Püschel, 2007) out of their own emotional needs. Russell et al. (2018) and Schröer and Püschel (2007) found that undoing behaviors include (but are not limited to) covering the body; washing the body; positioning the body in a “comfortable” or “sleeping” position using a bed, couch, or pillows; removing the victim’s clothes; combing the victim’s hair; adding adornments or jewelry to the victim’s body; and placing flowers, dolls, feathers, plants, artificial butterflies, or other items next to or on the victim. These authors concluded that undoing is done as a defense mechanism to attempt to relieve their own feelings (of guilt or remorse).

 

[susane7]

Interesting things to me from MS's episode: As the self-expert seemed to believe it was a ritual sacrifice because there aren't evidence of SA, the prosecutor asked it isn't possible to be a sexually crime and the girls were murdered before the SA happened. Remember that according the Marshall yesterday RA explained his motives in some of his confessions. So I think he said it was a sexually motivated crime. Also the question about what the defendand said about the sticks to hide the bodies. I believe RA said that.

KK: Huge liar AS MS had reported in the previous years, he really said he and his father went in a red jeep and parked in the cemery in the day of the murders and they trown out a phone and a knife in a river. The wabash search river was related to Delphi and what KK said. LE found out the route that KK said it was impossible because the cameras didn't capture a red jeep in that day. They also found the phones of KK and TK were being used in that day at their home. So there is no evidence that the Klines were related to the crime.

RL: The defense briefly mentioned him and his SW but they didn't go into Logan because he was cleared.

EF: From what I understood, Murphy investigated him, the prosecutor - most likely Ives told to him to follow the lead if he believed it has legs. EF gave a swab. Murphy did not find EF and his sister credible. He said both were messed with him and full of c***. According to him, EF and his sister had menthal health problems and he noted that EF's sister had multiple medications in her home for what sounds like a variety of mental health problems.

Ps - those who listen MS's episode please correcte me if I am misquoting something. English isn't my first language so it is absolutely possible hat I missed or misquote something.

 

[katydid23]

I don't understand the debate. The video and images exist. What is the defense's point?

jmo

I think Libby downloaded the images to snapchat and did not save it to her phone. So the extraction expert needed to use some kind of app like Cellebrite to retrieve the images. That shouldn't mean they should be suppressed but it won't stop the DT from trying, IMO

 

[photographer4]

The trustees take their jobs very serious. I linked an article many threads back about how some are traumatized by the things they see. Calling them “actors” is a stretch. People are on suicide watch and their fellow prisoners are there to provide a lifeline. Sounds humane.

Humane society animals have better treatment than RA has had imo.

 

[girlhasnoname]

K. Murphy on stand, worked on the Odin Angle (2017-2019) (Click, Ferency and Murphy). Got a tip that EF said he killed the girls from one of his sisters.

They decided to have the sister make a controlled call to EF to subtly get him repeating information on tape. They made the call and it went South quickly because MJ blurts out "Elvis why did you kill those girls?" and he hung up.

Murphy & Holeman interviewed EF later on and got a swab for DNA. Murphy drove EF back home and EF said he spit on one of the girls. Murphy didn't take him seriously.

Murphy told NMcL he thought EF and MJ were 'full of crap'. Never found any evidence tying BH, EF, PW to Delphi.

Murphy was very upset and cried when shown crime scene photos.

 

[photographer4]

Well, this isn't exactly current, but 12 to 25 cents an hour doesn't seem like motivation to make trouble.

Not finding anything about bonuses.

So... guess it's just another prison job for commissary.

Nothing to write home about.


JMO
How much do incarcerated people earn in each state?

Your post made me wonder the cost of amenities inside the prison? Eg: what is the cost of a Twinkie from commissary? What is a cigarette worth? What is a cell phone worth (I think they’d be contraband but I believe they still make their way in to some places sometimes). What would an extra chicken finger cost if an inmate wanted one and his fellow inmate was willing to sell it? An amount so small could be big to an inmate imo.

 

[Inthedetails]

I think Libby downloaded the images to snapchat and did not save it to her phone. So the extraction expert needed to use some kind of app like Cellebrite to retrieve the images. That shouldn't mean they should be suppressed but it won't stop the DT from trying, IMO

So it's sort of a chain of command type argument, that something could have gone awry in the hand-off of evidence from one process to another, making the video and images unreliable?

Yeah, no. That's not going to fly.

jmo

 

[Vaderman]

f they are trying to deny that Libby took that video it will probably anger a lot of people.

Count me amongst the angered.

 

[photographer4]

Interesting things to me from MS's episode: As the self-expert seemed to believe it was a ritual sacrifice because there aren't evidence of SA, the prosecutor asked it isn't possible to be a sexually crime and the girls were murdered before the SA happened. Remember that according the Marshall yesterday RA explained his motives in some of his confessions. So I think he said it was a sexually motivated crime. Also the question about what the defendand said about the sticks to hide the bodies. I believe RA said that.

KK: Huge liar AS MS had reported in the previous years, he really said he and his father went in a red jeep and parked in the cemery in the day of the murders and they trown out a phone and a knife in a river. The wabash search river was related to Delphi and what KK said. LE found out the route that KK said it was impossible because the cameras didn't capture a red jeep in that day. They also found the phones of KK and TK were being used in that day at their home. So there is no evidence that the Klines were related to the crime.

RL: The defense briefly mentioned him and his SW but they didn't go into Logan because he was cleared.

EF: From what I understood, Murphy investigated him, the prosecutor - most likely Ives told to him to follow the lead if he believed it has legs. EF gave a swab. Murphy did not find EF and his sister credible. He said both were messed with him and full of c***. According to him, EF and his sister had menthal health problems and he noted that EF's sister had multiple medications in her home for what sounds like a variety of mental health problems.

Ps - those who listen MS's episode please correcte me if I am misquoting something. English isn't my first language so it is absolutely possible hat I missed or misquote something.

Regarding the phones showing KK and his dad were somewhere else at the time of the murders — theoretically, could one not just set a device to play YouTube or Spotify on auto play so they don’t stop until someone manually stops them? If someone could do this and leave their device somewhere else during the commission of a crime, how would Le know they were with those devices vs at a crime? Why couldn’t any suspect on any case have done this and just brought along a burner cell to the crime or no cell at all?

So I guess I want to know: how are LE sure the devices were not set to auto? I assume they checked the apps being used for time stamps and date or the accelerometer for footsteps and direction?

I guess I just wish we knew they put in more due diligence in this case than to assume it couldn’t be someone because the device was being used elsewhere.

All my opinion of course.

 

[photographer4]

I think Libby downloaded the images to snapchat and did not save it to her phone. So the extraction expert needed to use some kind of app like Cellebrite to retrieve the images. That shouldn't mean they should be suppressed but it won't stop the DT from trying, IMO

Is it possible the kids sent it to someone via snap and that person provided it to Le from their own device? Just wondering as I don’t use the app.