Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #190

[zh0r4]

She did. The first thing she says is that she formed her opinions as expressed on the television show based on secondhand information.

Now that she is an expert witness for the defense, one would expect she has seen discovery information. The question is, how much of her opinion would have been formed beforehand.

To be fair, if I remember correctly, CourtTV first posted the illustration of the crime scene, and how the sticks were laid. So it had been all over TV for anyone to view.

JMO.

 

[arielilane]

Havent caught up on all testimony yet. Was anything mentioned about RA’s clothing? Do they have the Carhartt jacket or anything clothing related to RA? TIA

 

[grannygates]

Ironic some defend RA and propose his confessions were false with the reason he was mistreated - at the same time pointing toward the alleged guilt of a man with the intelligence level of a 7-year old, knowing absolutely nothing of his personal circumstances other than “his sister said”. EF is the perfect example of what could’ve proven a wrongful murder conviction. MOO

I’ve seen this “diminished mental capacity” or low IQ frequently discussed as some level of defense or excuse that this person would somehow be incapable of murder and I just want to make mention that the defense of Robert Pickton, the Canadian serial killer who was alledged to have murdered 49 women, also used this exact same defense in his trial.

No one discounted Picktons own statements regarding his involvement in murdering 49 women nor did they believe that his suggested low IQ would excuse him of the responsibility he had in the murders of the women he was convicted for.

MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

Finally we’ve gotten some information about TOD (or lack thereof). This was one of my pointless obsessing points.

It’s still one of my obsessing points.

In this interview, KG asks Carter about ME at scene and time of death. Start around 13:00.

 

[Boxer]

Maybe someone else killed Libby.

MOO He did not like Libby so he wasn't sorry.

 

[zh0r4]

Your post made me wonder, under what circumstances would forensics NOT be able to come up with an estimated time of death? I could understand if a body was out in the elements for months, years etc that they may only come up with probably between X year and X year... likely in X months (based on clothing worn by / near a deceased, if such are available). But when a body (in this case LG and AW's bodies) were found so close to the time when they were taken by someone, what would make it hard to guess at a time of death / provide estimate of same?

IMO there is no circumstance where they would not be to record and estimated TOD after finding the bodies within the next 24-48 hours. It is one of the most important parts of the pathology report in a homicide case. There are numerous changes the body makes postmortem and these changes can be measured/observed and recorded to determine that estimation. Fire could potentially influence TOD estimation, but if there was a fire arson investigators would also be involved.
<modsnip - no link/rumor>

Can anyone explain these discrepancies to me? I have seen names of a forensic pathologist and a local coroner online, but I wasn’t around in the beginning so I am still confused about what order all of this happened? Did a local coroner (who signed off on the state death certificates) conduct an autopsy before the forensic pathologist? How far were they transported to the pathologist/where was the pathologist located? TIA!

MOO

For anyone who’s interested in reading what all is analyzed to determine TOD:

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death (2023)

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Forensic pathologists are essentially required to estimate the time since death (TSD) to assist in death investigation by limiting the investigation period and thus helping narrow down the number of suspects in homicide cases. TSD also provides valuable information in establishing the timeline...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Boxer]

I’ve seen this “diminished mental capacity” or low IQ frequently discussed as some level of defense or excuse that this person would somehow be incapable of murder and I just want to make mention that the defense of Robert Pickton, the Canadian serial killer who was alledged to have murdered 49 women, also used this exact same defense in his trial.

No one discounted Picktons own statements regarding his involvement in murdering 49 women nor did they believe that his suggested low IQ would excuse him of the responsibility he had in the murders of the women he was convicted for.

MOO

The "mental" defense is gone in most states.

 

[Yemelyan]

To be fair, if I remember correctly, CourtTV first posted the illustration of the crime scene, and how the sticks were laid. So it had been all over TV for anyone to view.

JMO.

Yes, exactly. She saw illustrations of the crime scene first and formed an opinion as to whether or not it was a ritualistic killing. Later, she was retained by the defense team and was privy to actual crime scene photos and other discovery information. But the question would be, how much of her opinion was formed prior, based on the illustrations. This is what I said would be needed to be put forward for the judge or jury to take into account, as it would be with anyone called to testify as to their "expertise," whatever it may be.

 

[Tricia]

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Manager/Websleuths.com

 

[grannygates]

Yes, exactly. She saw illustrations of the crime scene first and formed an opinion as to whether or not it was a ritualistic killing. Later, she was retained by the defense team and was privy to actual crime scene photos and other discovery information. But the question would be, how much of her opinion was formed prior, based on the illustrations. This is what I said would be needed to be put forward for the judge or jury to take into account, as it would be with anyone called to testify as to their "expertise," whatever it may be.

The prosecution brought it up to the judge yesterday so she is aware of it. IMO I think Gull will let it be known if she cares. MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

The prosecution brought it up to the judge yesterday so she is aware of it. IMO I think Gull will let it be known if she cares. MOO

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that this still needed to be presented to the judge. The way I wrote that might have been unclear. I understand that this was already brought up in the hearing, I was just explaining why I thought it was important for the question to be raised yesterday when Dr. Perlmutter testified.

 

[steeltowngirl]

IMO there is no circumstance where they would not be to record and estimated TOD after finding the bodies within the next 24-48 hours. It is one of the most important parts of the pathology report in a homicide case. There are numerous changes the body makes postmortem and these changes can be measured/observed and recorded to determine that estimation. Fire could potentially influence TOD estimation, but if there was a fire arson investigators would also be involved.

I have read a new coroner was the one who conducted the initial autopsies, and that the transportation of the bodies to the forensic pathologist was delayed and/or there wasn’t proper storage of the bodies due to lack of proper equipment? I have been wondering this entire time what is true and what is not true. If a coroner first did an autopsy before the forensic pathologist, that would be very odd in a double homicide of this magnitude. If, theoretically, the storage and/or transfer of the bodies wasn’t properly conducted in a timely manner, this could also influence the TOD estimation by the pathologist. For example, the Iceman, got his nickname by LE because he put some of his victims in a freezer and waited months to dump them, which confused pathologists because they had been preserved-this is why following proper protocol is so important.

Can anyone explain these discrepancies to me? I have seen names of a forensic pathologist and a local coroner online, but I wasn’t around in the beginning so I am still confused about what order all of this happened? Did a local coroner (who signed off on the state death certificates) conduct an autopsy before the forensic pathologist? How far were they transported to the pathologist/where was the pathologist located? TIA!

MOO

For anyone who’s interested in reading what all is analyzed to determine TOD:

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death (2023)

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Forensic pathologists are essentially required to estimate the time since death (TSD) to assist in death investigation by limiting the investigation period and thus helping narrow down the number of suspects in homicide cases. TSD also provides valuable information in establishing the timeline...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Feb 14, 2017
It was announced in a 2:15 p.m. press conference Tuesday in the rotunda of the Delphi City Building two bodies were found on the bank of Deer Creek at approximately 12:15 p.m. Sgt. Kim Riley of the Indiana State Police, along with Delphi Police Chief Steve Mullin and Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said no positive identification has been made however, the nearly 24-hour search for two missing teens is all but halted. County Coroner Jordan Cree will determine the identification of the bodies.

Police identify bodies found at Deer Creek - Carroll County Comet

*UPDATE* Police identify bodies found at Deer Creek The two bodies found at the Deer Creek Tuesday have been positively identified as missing Delphi Community Middle School students, 14 year-old Liberty German and 13 year-old Abigail Williams.Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby called the...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Feb 14, 2017

https://twitter.com/x/status/831662462327992321

Feb 15, 2017
Authorities say autopsies are taking longer than expected on two bodies found near a northern Indiana creek during a search for two missing 13-year-old girls.

State Police Sgt. Kim Riley says a pathologist who began the autopsies Wednesday morning in Terre Haute was still performing them around noon Wednesday.

He says a news conference will be held sometime Wednesday to release the names of the two people and preliminary autopsy findings. Authorities suspect foul play in the deaths.

Autopsies confirm bodies are those of 2 missing Indiana girls

Authorities say two bodies found Tuesday near a northern Indiana creek are those of two 13-year-old girls who went missing and their deaths are being investigated as homicides.

www.wndu.com

Dr Roland Kohr - Terre Haute

Richard Allen’s attorneys file motion to suppress ‘confessions’ - Carroll County Comet

Richard Allen’s attorneys have filed a motion to suppress “incriminating statements” allegedly made by their client to inmates and employees at Westville Correctional Facility during his year-long stay there. They say the statements were involuntary, and obtained in violation of their client’s...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[photographer4]

Because they want to separate the image/video from any timestamp within RA's time at MHB. As if they were taken later or the timing is ambiguous somehow.

18 minutes.

The girls were deceased under less than an hour from drop off, went from happy girls chatting about girl things to victims of a frenzied, violent, unimaginable end.

To those who say one man couldn't have done it, yes, one could. 18 minutes alone with a mad man is actually forever, how terrifying and harrowing those minutes were.

I know defense attorneys have jobs to do, but even defense attorneys draw lines. At what's ethical. Decent, distasteful, I'm not always sure.

Using Libby's bloody handprint to claim some unsupported Odinist ritual, I don't have to respect them and I don't.

What they've attempted to spread in the media, despite gag orders, is reprehensible.

We are finally getting to hear from Abby and Libby, their bodies and their blood their last testament.

May Abby and Libby be remembered for the fullness of their lives before that final hour, and may RA be remembered for nothing but it.

JMO

Ever skeptical I wonder: could someone have put Lg’s hand where the “print” / “fehu” depending on which one believes, was eventually found? Eg: as she’s dying? Or post mortem? If she’s mortally wounded, her hand in theory would go if possible to the injury to stop blood flow. Why is her hand on a tree?

 

[zh0r4]

It a good thing the around-the-clock video of RA held in safekeeping will prove or disprove allegations “his incarceration was essentially a workaround to a videotaped 24/7 interrogation by people employed by the state”. In fact it just might be that video that proves he freely confessed each of those 60 or more times. JMO

Were the videos of the confessions properly saved or have they also been accidentally lost like the first 2 weeks/2 months of interviews? Honest question.

 

[Boxer]

Norse Runes The Complete Guide [Updated] - Surflegacy

Norse runes find their origins in the Germanic-Viking tradition and were also used by the mysterious Celtic people as a divinatory and magical tool associated with the traditional form of Druidic divination expressed through the reading of the Ogham; the pieces of wood carved with symbols...

surflegacy.net

MOO, any set of sticks makes runes.

 

[zh0r4]

You don’t want to talk about the bullet that allegedly places RA at the crime scene. Or how about Libby’s video of a man on the bridge dressed just like him? If LE didn’t believe RA was present at the crime scene, whether you argue the evidence or not, he wouldn’t be the one facing murder charges. It’s the alternative suspects who the D can’t manage to place at the crime scene.

Where’s that leave the jury if it is proven RA is the only man at the crime scene? Will they be considered ‘state agents’ too?

It wasn’t a bullet, it was a UNSPENT CARTRIDGE, recovered 2-4 weeks after the murder (per Barbara McDonald doc if I remember correctly). No one has ever been convicted of homicide on an unspent cartridge. Especially with no chain of custody that was collected weeks later. JMO.

 

[photographer4]

After listening to this, it sounds like Richard Allen is indeed the killer. He wanted to confess over 60 times to clear his conscience. According to Murder Sheet podcast, some of those confessions contain details only the killer would know and some of the confessions are recorded. T

There is one thing I do not understand. Why does he not just plead guilty then and spare the families the trial?

If he were to plead guilty, could the court force him to allocute his crimes? To say exactly what happened? It’s possible he wants to spare his family hearing the details. And it seems they perhaps don’t want to hear them as they have left the courtroom accordingly for such testimony.

It’s interesting to me that he’s said to have made all these confessions but has not made any remarks in court. Why would he not stand up and start saying all the things to the judge if he really wanted the judge to know / everyone to know?

Ultimately, he instructs his lawyers. If he says he’s gonna plead guilty they can caution against it and argue why it’s a bad plan with him but they can’t do whatever they want. They must carry out his instructions.

I’d like to know - if they patently disagree with a client’s decision on a case - can a defense counsel appointed by the state simply quit the case and let someone else pick it up? Any pros or cons of this is allowed?

 

[photographer4]

Unfortunately, if it's not allowed at trial, that will just be used by pro-Odinist-theorists as evidence that the Odinist activity is still being covered up.

It does seem like a lot of their more solid points fell apart during the hearing, especially regarding no/little blood at the crime scene (turns out that was false), testing by the blood spatter expert that explained how the mark on the tree came about, and the FBI BAU providing analysis that the crime was not a ritual sacrifice.

If the defense is not going to be allowed to delve into the Odinism angle, I'm not sure what their new strategy will be. KAK seems to have been excluded pretty well, which is probably why the defense hasn't brought that side of the case up much (in terms of SODDI).

JMO

If the car KaK / his dad were said to have been in had been there that day, how did HH store cam not pick it up? Could it have gone another way? If yes, did Le look at other cams? Ring cams, other biz? Traffic cams? License plate scanners? Not sure what might have been available to them at the time or how they were positive kak and his dad weren’t there?

Kak is a know liar - any chance he gave some accurate details mixed with false? Eg: could it not have been a red jeep? Etc. moooo

 

[photographer4]

I think that goes to prove one thing:

The D-Team lawyers were obviously not concerned about RA's mental health at this point in time.

Apparently their client who's suffering from "prolonged psychological torture", "psychosis", "suicidal ideations" ....

Yeah - seems legit. Let's just send out a minion with all the discovery for him to take in while in this mental state. They'd already know about him pushing back the crime scene photos during questioning, his previous mental health problems (prior to arrest/post crime).

Yeah, let's just leave him to it.

Good on the State for attempting numerous times over days to contact the D-Team (who, IMO, must have been on vaccay or had their phones all muted because they absolutely failed to respond) to clarify/confirm that this is actually how the D-Team wanted to drop this 1000 pages of triggering-to-anyone-having-a-mental-health-crisis load on him.

Wait pls help me catch up - did LE show RA crime scene photos? If yes; when? Which ones? For how long? Why?

 

[steeltowngirl]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that this still needed to be presented to the judge. The way I wrote that might have been unclear. I understand that this was already brought up in the hearing, I was just explaining why I thought it was important for the question to be raised yesterday when Dr. Perlmutter testified.

You were perfectly clear @Yemelyan. Keep up the great posts. Always glad to see you on the thread.