Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #190

[Inthedetails]

There are box cutters that look very much like a knife, some even folding just like a pocketknife. Just a couple out there...
View attachment 522534

View attachment 522535

I'm thinking if he did indeed use a box cutter, he used the standard-issue box cutter that his employer supplied for employees to open boxes. I don't think he purchased anything more elaborate and, instead, used what he had on hand.

jmo

 

[grannygates]

Just got back from a Home Depot where I was taking a shortcut through the aisle where they have box cutters. And my eye got caught by a package of serrated box knife replacement blades.

Husky Serrated Blade (50-Pack) HKY00015 - The Home Depot

Husky Serrated blades last longer than standard single edge blades by engaging multiple cutting edges simultaneously, extending the cutting life of the blade. Less blade changes saves you time. The precision

www.homedepot.com

Checked online once I got home. Apparently, I could walk into any hardware store in my area and find multiple brands of serrated box knife blades. And not marketed as being carpet knives, etc.

So, FWIW, such a product does exist and while not being the default blade for utility knives/box cutters, it isn't extremely rare either.

There’s a roll of carpet shown on the packaging under “uses”. It’s marketed rope and carpet. The Canadian site labels the logos under uses.

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/husky-serrated-utility-blades-50-pack-/1000806718

 

[MiniMoo]

DBM

What is DBM?

 

[photographer4]

What is DBM?

Deleted by me - we use it to show we deleted our own post vs a mod having done so.

 

[grannygates]

I thought upright meant like a sitting position or something.

If say she was hung upside down the blood I don't think would have pooled like it did to the back of her and I'm sure blood would have splattered on other surfaces even if minuscule.

The only blood found all over the place was from Libby.

Exsanguination was what was used for Abby.

I would also guess upright to mean sitting up but then I would also think the blood would go downwards towards the ground, not up over the chin?

I think the volume that was found at the scene would answer whether this injury occurred in that position and location. I thought that was the idea of behind why they believed she wasn’t injured in that location.

MOO

 

[ClearAhead]

Unfortunately it seems to be difficult to come across any accurate summery of the examination of the state's digital expert.

I guess my problem with trying to read anything into this, is if the phone really was switched on at 4.30am by an unknown person - wouldn't the evidence of that be not only the tower handshake but also the phones own onboard logs?

Like if someone actually turned it off about 2.30pm when the girls were bundled into a waiting car, then switched it back on at the crime scene at 4.30am - those two events are surely logged, and then the investigation looks completely different from the first days.

So my feeling is, we can't simply say "data exchange at 4.30am" = "phone turned on" unless the logs support that idea.

As usual, we'll probably need to wait until trial.

MOO

But wasn’t it presumed the phone battery went dead as well, other than that one ping at 4:30am? I think it would be quite tricky to turn on a phone that had a 99.9% dead battery long enough to receive text messages, then time it to immediately run out of battery power. And what would be the point?

As you suggest, the logs of the actual cellphone should provide the answers.

 

[gremlin444]

There’s a roll of carpet shown on the packaging under “uses”. It’s marketed rope and carpet. The Canadian site labels the logos under uses.

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/husky-serrated-utility-blades-50-pack-/1000806718

Picture trimmed so that my pic doesn't make the post too big.

On the US packaging, cardboard cutting is the first use logo drawing on the packing. The product description on the site is:

Husky Serrated blades last longer than standard single edge blades by engaging multiple cutting edges simultaneously, extending the cutting life of the blade. Less blade changes saves you time. The precision honed heavy duty blades fit most standard utility knives. Available in 5 and 50 Packs.

• Precision honed serrated edge
• Fits most standard utility knives
• Longer lasting design
• General purpose cutting for multiple materials

edit: I'm TRYING to attach a picture of the product photo used on US sites in case going to a big box store website while not in the US defaults to take someone to their home country website for that store and having issues. Will keep trying.


Looking at all this sparked a memory of my days working national chain retail. We generally used generic box cutters to open shipments of stock. But if those shipments had any kind of plastic reinforcement strapping around them, the box knifes weren't very effective on them and you risked cutting the product in the box or yourself the more you fought to get through the strap. When we got a new manager who transferred from a different location in our chain, he asked why we weren't using serrated blades like he had had at his old store. He brought one over from the old store that week--and it cut through those packing straps so much more easily and safely. Same chain--two different stores, with two different products provided to employees by headquarters for same usage.

 

[Megnut]

There's also a hook blade for box cutters.

It even looks mean.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Perhaps RA planned to execute them but his gun jammed.

I wonder what condition it was in when it was recovered and whether it was loaded, a bullet chambered.

A box cutter could do a lot of damage so maybe it was his weapon of choice but perhaps it was the only thing on him, useful for his purpose.

Would he have been afraid to fire a weapon? Maybe. Maybe if he felt he had a good getaway plan. Seems like he might have put some thought in that, considering where and how he parked.

JMO

 

[Quim The Extraordinaire]

Are you thinking about Moscow? I don't recall that happening in Delphi, but "early on" was over 7 years ago at this point so I may have forgotten.

She’s not the pathologist and the autopsy report isn’t her report nor findings, so her own credibility isn’t attached to validity of that report.

The expert and the prosecutor both have access to this autopsy report, so if the expert responded with incorrect information citing the autopsy, I would expect the prosecutor to correct her and correct the court record.

It is definitely challenging not having cameras in the courtroom and this type of reporting on the court hearings. We can just cross our fingers and hope these transcripts come out soon !

MOO

I understand. However, I understand her crime scene interpretation remained similar from her CourtTV appearance to her testimony, which suggests strong confirmation bias .

I’ve also found defense filings to be inaccurate (and, IMO, intentionally deceptive) and thus, without knowing what the base documents say, do not trust that the information she was provided was accurate or that her interpretation could be accurate.

The prosecution did not need to debate the particulars of the autopsy report or the mischaracterizations in the Franks filings in order to contest her testimony. I doubt we’ll see this at trial.

MOO IMO ETC

 

[Megnut]

We don't where exactly Abby was when she was attached. But it's possible that Libby ran to her, to try to save her, protect her and that's how blood got on her face.

It's all so terrifying and tragic. Whatever nightmares we can conjure won't be nightmare enough.

JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

Perhaps RA planned to execute them but his gun jammed.

I wonder what condition it was in when it was recovered and whether it was loaded, a bullet chambered.

A box cutter could do a lot of damage so maybe it was his weapon of choice but perhaps it was the only thing on him, useful for his purpose.

Would he have been afraid to fire a weapon? Maybe. Maybe if he felt he had a good getaway plan. Seems like he might have put some thought in that, considering where and how he parked.

JMO

I'm thinking he planned to use the box cutter (if that indeed was the weapon).

Using a gun vs. using a knife seems so different - it really would take a different state of mind, I am guessing, as a knife is so much more intimate and tactile. It takes mental plus physical determination to make the cut, imo.

I think he went there ready for it, at least for Libby. The look on BG's face in the bridge, to me, looks determined.

Seems like he treated Abby differently and perhaps he wasn't prepared for her at all. She seems to have been killed perhaps more quickly and, in his mind, more peacefully???

jmo

 

[Megnut]

I'm thinking he planned to use the box cutter (if that indeed was the weapon).

Using a gun vs. using a knife seems so different - it really would take a different state of mind, I am guessing, as a knife is so much more intimate and tactile. It takes mental plus physical determination to make the cut, imo.

I think he went there ready for it, at least for Libby. The look on BG's face in the bridge, to me, looks determined.

Seems like he treated Abby differently and perhaps he wasn't prepared for her at all. She seems to have been killed perhaps more quickly and, in his mind, more peacefully???

jmo

Except she likely died slowly.

They were absolutely terrorized.

LG had her phone, presumably in a pocket. Forced to undress.

IMO the phone transferred to AW by way of LG's clothes. Jean pocket, hoodie pocket, shoe.

When AW stopped moving, so did LG's phone.

Utterly dastardly.

That he murdered them, how he murdered them, and what he put them through --

It's inconceivable.

JMO

 

[grannygates]

I understand. However, I understand her crime scene interpretation remained similar from her CourtTV appearance to her testimony, which suggests strong confirmation bias .

I’ve also found defense filings to be inaccurate (and, IMO, intentionally deceptive) and thus, without knowing what the base documents say, do not trust that the information she was provided was accurate or that her interpretation could be accurate.

The prosecution did not need to debate the particulars of the autopsy report or the mischaracterizations in the Franks filings in order to contest her testimony. I doubt we’ll see this at trial.

MOO IMO ETC

I’m not a lawyer but I think if the lawyer asks the witness “could a boxcutter be used to make those injuries?” And she said “no, I wouldn’t think so because the autopsy report indicates that it was a serrated weapon” and if the autopsy report actually said boxcutter and the state is using this question to put this on the record to bolster their case, I believe that the lawyer would correct that record because that’s the whole point of his line of questioning.

Of course, I would have to defer to a real lawyer on that one. That’s just my opinion. MOO

 

[Salah11]

I’m not a lawyer but I think if the lawyer asks the witness “could a boxcutter be used to make those injuries?” And she said “no, I wouldn’t think so because the autopsy report indicates that it was a serrated weapon” and if the autopsy report actually said boxcutter and the state is using this question to put this on the record to bolster their case, I believe that the lawyer would correct that record because that’s the whole point of his line of questioning.

Of course, I would have to defer to a real lawyer on that one. That’s just my opinion. MOO

You can get serrated box cutters just use google there are loads out there.

 

[grannygates]

You can get serrated box cutters just use google there are loads out there.

I’m talking about maintaining the court record during the hearing. I don’t think the judge is going to be googling everything they said.

 

[MiniMoo]

I would also guess upright to mean sitting up but then I would also think the blood would go downwards towards the ground, not up over the chin?

If Abby was lying on a sloped area it could explain how the blood pooled where it did plus it would have been a very very slow bleed out.

As the blood was seen coming out to her right side (just a bit) she may not have been on an even surface.

I think the volume that was found at the scene would answer whether this injury occurred in that position and location. I thought that was the idea of behind why they believed she wasn’t injured in that location.

If hung upside down and slightly nicked blood would slowly seep into one's hair on that side, I'd imagine, and possibly one ear, also, down one arm sleeve on the inside more so than the outside.

However, if one's body is flailing around or making involuntary movements (jerks) due to the shock then the blood may splatter in different directions including on the arm sleeves and on whatever is being worn. Just not lots of blood maybe.

JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

Except she likely died slowly.

They were absolutely terrorized.

LG had her phone, presumably in a pocket. Forced to undress.

IMO the phone transferred to AW by way of LG's clothes. Jean pocket, hoodie pocket, shoe.

When AW stopped moving, so did LG's phone.

Utterly dastardly.

That he murdered them, how he murdered them, and what he put them through --

It's inconceivable.

JMO

Yes, I realize both deaths were awful and were violent murders. But perhaps in his mind, he treated Abby better.

That is obviously not what I myself think, about either death.

jmo

 

[Salah11]

I’m talking about maintaining the court record during the hearing. I don’t think the judge is going to be googling everything they said.

Well the judge I am sure knows there are serrated box cutters. So his confession makes sense when he likely had a serrated one.

IMO

 

[susiQ]

And it makes me wonder why the prosecution is asking for some of the confessions to be excluded too..? MOO

I imagine the P don’t like the ones that don’t line up with what actually happened, like “I shot them in the back.” IMHO, these confessions were the result of RA having a complete mental collapse and cannot be relied upon to assign guilt.