Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #191

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Thanks for finding this! I am not sure what those numbers mean. Do cell phones usually have an IMEI number? I think I need to google so I understand what these numbers are and why his didn't have the IMEI number.
I had to google too

What is an IMEI number?

The IMEI (International Mobile Equipment Identity) number is a unique 15-digit serial number for identifying a device; every mobile phone in the world has one. These IMEI numbers are stored in a database called the EIR (Equipment Identity Register), which contains information about all valid mobile phone equipment.

so if I am understanding after some more googling, older phones are not equipped with a sim card or other similar equipment do not have an IMEI number (they predate that technology)

Apparently some people remove their IMEI on purpose to prevent others from tracking their location.
 

Police use the IMEI to track lost or stolen devices. If it doesn’t have one that’s worrisome to me. If you know your IMEI and lose your phone you can have the company blacklist the device to brick it so a thief cannot use it even if they put a new SIM card in. The phone he was using - I wonder what the heck was up that it had no IMEI??
 

Police use the IMEI to track lost or stolen devices. If it doesn’t have one that’s worrisome to me. If you know your IMEI and lose your phone you can have the company blacklist the device to brick it so a thief cannot use it even if they put a new SIM card in. The phone he was using - I wonder what the heck was up that it had no IMEI??
This really makes me think the phone he had at the time was used for illicit purposes such as maybe drug dealing? CSAM? Something is up with this - my phone back in 2010 had a SIM card, I am certain of this! I think even my 2001 cell phone had one??! So his SHOULD have had one no???? Yeah I am back to edit this to say, in 2001 I had Nokia 8390 - which I still HAVE!! And it takes a SIM card.
 

This says older phones have MEID and more recent ones have IMEI?? I’m now more confused than i had been and wish I had not asked. Ugh.
 
All phones don't always have both an IMEI or MEID number. An IMEI number is always on GSM system devices that use AT&T and T-Mobile carrier. A MEID number is always on CDMA system devices that use Verizon, U.S. Cellular, or Sprint carriers. IMEI is a 14-digit number while MEID is a 15-digit number.

 
I have a lot of personal doubts re: Ritual Sacrifice based on the fact that we have no evidence that there has been any human Odinist sacrifices in the past 100 years.

However, there is always a first right? So my question would be: is there any reports of any missing pets in the Delphi or wider county area? Any kids finding trees with hanging goats? It's a small community and such findings would definitely have found their way to their local papers - the infamous Croydon Cat Killer case comes to mind Croydon Cat Killer - Wikipedia.

I've followed a few cases of satanism over the years like the '95 Athens Satanism murder Satanist murder trial grips Greece which is the closest thing I can find to ritual sacrifices, and it always starts with animal slaying before escalating. All in all, do we have a trail of ritualistic activity that included blood shedding?
 

This says older phones have MEID and more recent ones have IMEI?? I’m now more confused than i had been and wish I had not asked. Ugh.

From article I posted above

CDMA mobile phones and tablets on
Sprint and Verizon networks have a MEID number, while GSM networks such as AT&T and T-Mobile use IMEI numbers
 
Is Nancy Grace an approved source? ...I know. But she had an expert on occult history (actual PhD in History) Mark Mirabello professor Emeritus and he managed to get in a few words (sideaways) regarding his analysis of the scene which where incredibly eye opening. He has written the book the Odin Brotherhood and seems extremely knowledgeable on the subject. Is it OK if I link to the interview?
 
I have a lot of personal doubts re: Ritual Sacrifice based on the fact that we have no evidence that there has been any human Odinist sacrifices in the past 100 years.

However, there is always a first right? So my question would be: is there any reports of any missing pets in the Delphi or wider county area? Any kids finding trees with hanging goats? It's a small community and such findings would definitely have found their way to their local papers - the infamous Croydon Cat Killer case comes to mind Croydon Cat Killer - Wikipedia.

I've followed a few cases of satanism over the years like the '95 Athens Satanism murder Satanist murder trial grips Greece which is the closest thing I can find to ritual sacrifices, and it always starts with animal slaying before escalating. All in all, do we have a trail of ritualistic activity that included blood shedding?
I think that even the investigators are mixed on what the motive would be if these other people were involved. I don’t think they think it would be a church-like “ritual” service with formal odinists. More like backwoods methhead white supremacists using a religion to fuel their crimes? And your question regarding escalation has been confirmed through the ex wife of the main guy. She said the one friend wanted to step it up from animals. (Linking transcript to motion to dismiss hearing for that). That friend lives minutes from the bridge. She also testified again in more depth in the hearings so that will answer more of your questions once we get to read the transcripts !

I’ve been trying to find good sources that explain what law enforcement classifies as a “ritualistic” crime, because I feel like the legal term is slightly different than how we are thinking. It’s all far less formal. These are two links I found to abstracts, I’m still trying to find the full articles:




 
Is Nancy Grace an approved source? ...I know. But she had an expert on occult history (actual PhD in History) Mark Mirabello professor Emeritus and he managed to get in a few words (sideaways) regarding his analysis of the scene which where incredibly eye opening. He has written the book the Odin Brotherhood and seems extremely knowledgeable on the subject. Is it OK if I link to the interview?
Delphi Murders Suspect: PAGAN CULT 'SACRIFICED' Abby & Libby - Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Welcome @SouthEnd is this the interview you are referring to?
 
Hi friends, I have been following this nightmarish case for a number of years, and after the last year of warring podcasts/YT, I am more confused than even when RA was first indicted. I have been following the threads on WS for a few weeks and I wanted to thank you for sharing some really good, well-sourced information.
Some thoughts re: Evidence, as I am trying to work out if my understanding is sound. (A lot of it is speculation on my part)

a) PCA: When I first read through RA's PCA, I was worried about the case against RA. Comparing it to the Idaho PCA that came out soon after, I found it less compelling - as in, it didn't include the 'GOTCHA' moment I was somehow expecting, MOO. However, after reading through other PCAs, I am now neutral; I realise that in this case, the LE's line is keeping as much information out of the public eye, so I am starting to understand that they are only included as much information as they needed to meet the Probable Cause burden. Of course, it could be that this is all they have, in which case, BARD will be hard to be met. IMO.

b) Tool mark analysis: MS is a podcast that inspires a lot of emotion, but in their 23d of August 2023 episode they had a forensics expert discuss the validity of toolmark analysis. In my understanding, Indiana does accept tool mark analysis in court but it is a process that's vulnerable to attack from the DT. While I don't personally doubt the existence of the ejected round, for me it is a mid-low weight piece of evidence, unless something comes out on trial (aka - if they have found a box of the same type of ammunition in RA's home, if they prove that from all gun owners only less than 5% use that brand, etc)

c) SODDI defence strategy: I don't understand the current angle. I see the appeal of the conspiracy angle and IMO it worked in Karen Reads' case well enough (I am still waiting to learn, if we ever learn, what compelled the jurors to vote the way they did) BUT. I personally believe that the alibis mentioned in the pretrial hearing for the main person linking LG and AW to the Odinist theory, BH, have been checked as thoroughly as possible. Of course there could be a 'what if' - the time was off, 'what if' - someone else clocked out, 'what if' - more cars were present maybe via the cemetery and 'what if' the helicopters never spotted them BUT I personally believe in the shorter path approach. Yes, they could be implicated if those 3-4 things that we have no evidence on are true, but there is a shorter path.

Which leads me to - RL and KK and his father. If we are to create reasonable doubt, I believe that there is an equal amount of 'proof' - aka the number of years and searches and resources the LE spent on these two as POI to create some kind of doubt for RA's guilt. Why does the Defence take the much more arduous and harder to prove path of resurrecting a group conspiracy - instead of leaning into the two, IMO, more believable alternative options, that require way fewer logical steps?

d) Confessions: Ooof. False confessions are very real. However, I spent a few hours looking into the Innocence Project and the data that have come out of acquittals/reverals. I hope it is ok to share a link: Do laypeople recognize youth as a risk factor for false confession? A test of the ‘common sense’ hypothesis

To quote the article: In their analysis of 125 proven false confessions, Drizin and Leo (2004) noted that a disproportionately high percentage (33%) came from juveniles, most of whom were age 15 years or younger. Similarly, Gross and Schaffer (2012) found false confessions in 42% of juvenile exonerations (compared to 15% of all exonerations).

Age is a factor. Reading some of the research, it also seems that the majority of false confessions happen during a single long interrogation. I have found very little data on spontaneous confessions given while kept on solitary-like conditions and I understand that this is because this is a very very unique case. Still, I am thinking that if allowed, the recordings of the confessions will be a high weight piece of evidence.

I believe the timing of the confessions and whether RA had access to discovery or not, will be detrimental, and we will have a black and white answer to that come trial.


To conclude, I am on the fence on whether the evidence will reach BARD. I don't enjoy being on the fence. My biggest worry is a hung jury. While we may never know with absolute certainty what happened in the last horrific moments of their life, the jurors will have to decide based on oftentimes conflicting information. And that's a heavy burden, but that's the nature of the justice system.

However, beyond the future juries, beyond RA and the number of people who have been dragged into this and are potentially innocent, my heart goes out to the families of the two girls who have been retraumatised over and over through this impossibly chaotic process. I hope for the sake of the families and the loved ones that the sensationalism will end, and some kind of outcome will be reached in October.
Hello @SouthEnd and WELCOME TO WS !!!!

This is a great first post !!!

I mostly feel positive that the Jury will be able to see through the chaos and that the Prosecuting team will put everything together to prove RA=BG but agree with you that after the Karen R trial, it makes one a bit nervous.
 
Hard to know what they've been spending their time on I guess. Like do they have a medical expert on psychosis from a timely consultation in '23 or did they miss the boat on it? If they did, now what?

But it is odd that a year after Franks, they had nothing.

I think Gull probably will do them a favour here. They'd be better off focussing on KAK, the phone in the middle of the night, multiple killers, defective investigation etc

MOO
We learned through the prosecution reading and directly quoting from the defense’s ex parte motions in their public court filings that there was a request for funding to hire an expert regarding the mental health affects of solitary confinement. I think hiring this type of expert would be expected considering the detainment conditions.


MOO
 
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Thank you so much tlcya! This is the interview I was referring to.

For anyone who can't wade through NG's very particular style, Professor's Mirabello's main point is that the scene didn't have the markers he'd associate with Odin worship, it was not a location that looked like it had been used before and he'd expect to see the victims hanged and pierced in a facsimile to Odin's sacrifice to himself. I thought it was closer to my understanding of the Sagas (which in turn have their own issues since they were only transcribed during the late age of Vikings so our understanding of Viking worship... is lacking tbh IMO)
 
Yes, leaving his personal, regularly used phone at home that day would make sense if you were going out to commit a gruesome double homicide. Taking a burner also makes sense if he even brought any phone at all.

What will put doubt in the weak theory that "hey look, RA's phone was at home the entire day on the 13th" will be RA's historical data usage over the years.

If he normally kept _x__ phone on him and used it daily to communicate with wife, mom, work, etc., why would it be conveniently left at home with no activity since we know he confessed to being at the scene of the crime? When do too many coincidences become too many?

Historical data usage for his known, personal cell will not be RA's friend. I'm not worried by the CAST info.

JMO
There are a ton of evidentiary issues in using propensity data and cell phone records. Relevance, expert opinion, constitutional issues, etc.... Here is a good law journal article on the issues:

 
All phones don't always have both an IMEI or MEID number. An IMEI number is always on GSM system devices that use AT&T and T-Mobile carrier. A MEID number is always on CDMA system devices that use Verizon, U.S. Cellular, or Sprint carriers. IMEI is a 14-digit number while MEID is a 15-digit number.

IMEI or MEID are the same set of numbers, you just drop the last number on IMEI (15) to make it MEID (14):

<snipped & BBM>

IMEI stands for International Mobile Equipment Identity. It's a unique 15-digit number assigned to all cellular devices.

The 14-digit MEID stands for Mobile Equipment Identifier and is similarly meant to identify a mobile device. It is sometimes known as an electronic serial number. You can translate the IMEI to a MEID by dropping the last digit.

From a previous poster's link - thank you @twall

How to Find Your Phone's Unique IMEI or MEID Number
 
It cannot have been off or in the car if he used it to see the stocks. It doesn’t sound like LE found the phone he was using that day in their search warrant though or if they did, perhaps nothing to support their case was found on it? Mooo.
But how do we know he actually used it to see the stocks? I'd think if he did, LE would have found evidence of him having that phone in the park that day, and been able to track his time there and when he left and where he went. I don't know that they have that info. ?
 

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