Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192

[photographer4]

We don't know. I was hypothesizing.

Ah. I wondered since you hadn’t posted a link along with that. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Yemelyan]

I'd like to know if the witness thought it was odd the way the car was parked (backed in) when they first saw it, or if they were prompted to say yes or no with a question like, "do you mean it was parked in such a way to hide the license plate?"

If backing into parking spots is evidence of a crime, my father escaped prosecution his entire life (and tried to teach me to do the same).

IMO MOO

This is a little different than what you're saying but there's always a risk, after a crime like this in a community, that police will be inundated by people who saw something "odd" when really it wasn't - this is part of the reason that there were over 70,000 tips in this case or whatever the final number was. I would hope that when taking a witness statement police wouldn't do what you described but so many things are crazy about this case. Of course - until this person testifies, if he does, we really won't know.

I guess I'm wondering if the backed in part was suspicious to the people who noticed it not because it was a simple back-in (as one would do to a regular parking spot) but because it was backed in directly next to the building as if to hide part of the car.

 

[photographer4]

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/liberty-german

Apparently they still have YBG’s sketch on the FBI website in regards to this case, but not the OBG sketch. The site was apparently updated last week according to the tag that shows up under the site link when I searched for it (but I can’t verify that so take with a grain of salt pls). Why would the FBI still have this sketch up and not the other? This case is just sooo weird to me!

 

[tlcya]

This is a little different than what you're saying but there's always a risk, after a crime like this in a community, that police will be inundated by people who saw something "odd" when really it wasn't - this is part of the reason that there were over 70,000 tips in this case or whatever the final number was. I would hope that when taking a witness statement police wouldn't do what you described but so many things are crazy about this case. Of course - until this person testifies, if he does, we really won't know.

I guess I'm wondering if the backed in part was suspicious to the people who noticed it not because it was a simple back-in (as one would do to a regular parking spot) but because it was backed in directly next to the building as if to hide part of the car.

or thought the way it was parked was odd because it was backed into a spot far away from other vehicles and entrances to the old CPS (or Farm Bureau as RA described it). Even before I knew girls were missing/murdered, if I saw something like that in a parking lot I had never seen that in before, I might take notice and wonder if a drug deal was going down or a lunch time affair, etc.

Do we know, was that building in use and the lot used as well when the girls were killed or was it a just a usually empty lot near an empty building? If empty, I would for sure notice because I would think thief/burglar/up to no good.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

So, K dropped them off about 1:13 pm after a girls sleepover and pancakes for breakfast or brunch.

Does anyone else have a different time that K dropped the girls off?

The minors saw RA around 1:26 pm based off of the photograph one took.

So, was that man walking in the same direction the girls were walking in only 10-13 minutes behind?

Is it known where he entered the trail from.

The minors saw a male and allegedly LG took the photo, was it RA as you say? Hopefully one day we will know the answer. IMO

 

[Salah11]

The minors saw a male and allegedly LG took the photo, was it RA as you say? Hopefully one day we will know the answer. IMO

They saw RA as he also saw them.

How is that in dispute?

 

[photographer4]

They saw RA as he also saw them.

How is that in dispute?

After reviewing all the different times the kids are said to have arrived at the trails (which I made a post about and linked several articles in support of upthread…)…. I wonder who ANY of the witnesses might have seen that day! The ISP have the kids being dropped off at 1pm per their own website!!??

 

[Salah11]

After reviewing all the different times the kids are said to have arrived at the trails (which I made a post about and linked several articles in support of upthread…)…. I wonder who ANY of the witnesses might have seen that day! The ISP have the kids being dropped off at 1pm per their own website!!??

The young kids took a photo of a bench at 1.26pm and saw RA after that. RA also said he saw a bunch of kids when he was walking towards the bridge, so their stories matched. It also ties in with RA saying he was at the trails between 1.30-3.30pm.

I am not into convoluting the timeline when some things simply match up and, to me, not in dispute

 

[Yemelyan]

or thought the way it was parked was odd because it was backed into a spot far away from other vehicles and entrances to the old CPS (or Farm Bureau as RA described it). Even before I knew girls were missing/murdered, if I saw something like that in a parking lot I had never seen that in before, I might take notice and wonder if a drug deal was going down or a lunch time affair, etc.

Do we know, was that building in use and the lot used as well when the girls were killed or was it a just a usually empty lot near an empty building? If empty, I would for sure notice because I would think thief/burglar/up to no good.

My memory is that by the time of the crime it was a building that was no longer in use, but that it was not uncommon for people to use the parking lot to access the trails. I believe in the probable cause affidavit one witness said "it was not odd for vehicles to be parked there but she noticed it was odd because of the manner it was parked, backed in near the building." (Page 3)

Then another witness also said he thought the vehicle was backed in as if to conceal the plate.

 

[photographer4]

The young kids took a photo of a bench at 1.26pm and saw RA after that. RA also said he saw a bunch of kids when he was walking towards the bridge, so their stories matched. It also ties in with RA saying he was at the trails between 1.30-3.30pm.

I am not into convoluting the timeline when some things simply match up and, to me, not in dispute

The kids saw a man. The man may NOT have been RA.
RA saw some kids - those kids may or may not have been the kids the state is using as their witnesses.

I’d like to know - where was RA when he saw some kids?
Where were the kids when they saw the man?

Did the witnesses who think they saw RA ALSO see LG and AW?? Curious.

 

[ClearAhead]

After reviewing all the different times the kids are said to have arrived at the trails (which I made a post about and linked several articles in support of upthread…)…. I wonder who ANY of the witnesses might have seen that day! The ISP have the kids being dropped off at 1pm per their own website!!??

Exact times were not disclosed early in this case. The reason that didn’t happen I think was it assisted in vetting the tens of thousands of tips. LE knew the precise information but the general public didn’t. So it became a way for LE to determine which witnesses and their info was crucial to the investigation. Initially iirc it was also reported the pick up time was around 5pm. There’s nothing wrong with that approach, media releases are not trial testimony. I’d bet the number of false tips was substantial.

One thing I always remember - while an investigation is ongoing the #1 role of LE is to solve the crime, it’s not to keep the public updated with information.

JMO/MOO

 

[Salah11]

The kids saw a man. The man may NOT have been RA.
RA saw some kids - those kids may or may not have been the kids the state is using as their witnesses.

I’d like to know - where was RA when he saw some kids?
Where were the kids when they saw the man?

Did the witnesses who think they saw RA ALSO see LG and AW?? Curious.

.
Are you implying LE missed a bunch of kids that never came forward that day?

 

[photographer4]

Exact times were not disclosed early in this case. The reason LE didn’t disclose it I think was to vet the tens of thousands of tips with the information they knew to be precise, but the public didn’t. It was a way for LE to determine which witnesses and their info was crucial to the investigation. Initially iirc it was also reported the pick up time was around 5pm. There’s nothing wrong with that approach, media releases are not trial testimony. I’d bet the number of false tips was substantial.

I am sure you’re right on this, but I also kinda think that it may have been - at the time when the kids were first missing, no one knew they were looking for two murdered kids. They were looking for two kids who had been dropped at the trails earlier that day and who hadn’t met DG when they were supposed to have. I imagine the timeline was not super important really until the following day when LE realized they had a double child homicide on their hands.

But the ISP website still says the girls were dropped at around 1pm. If that is the case, then I’m unsure how likely it is that they’d still be at the drop off end of the bridge when RA was there at all? That is why I asked in my last post if the witness minors also saw the girls? If not, why not? If the kids were dropped around 1pm, to me the whole timeline is different. It might mean they were already well on the other side of the bridge skulking around etc doing whatever they were doing and then approached by the killer. Maybe, if they were dropped off at 1pm, it is possible they were there to and possibly DID meet someone there that we just don’t know about yet.

I just can’t hang my hat on RA’s guilt with so few details available, and now realizing the ones we think we have - they’ve been reported over the years with a clear lack of accuracy. All those articles I posted cannot be right - not when they start around 1pm and go as late as 1:49pm for a drop off time. But again, the ISP website says 1:00pm. That is a huge deal imo and if I were the D team, I’d be hammering that point home to the jury - repeatedly!!

Make the timeline make sense!! Don’t tell me (LE, media, not you in particular of course!) that its done for investigative purposes, don’t try to feed me a line about how they were holding details close to the vest because right now, it genuinely looks like the LE have twisted the timeline to fit RA as a suspect rather than the details *revealing* RA for lack of a better way to word this!

 

[photographer4]

.
Are you implying LE missed a bunch of kids that never came forward that day?

I am saying, anything is possible. We don’t know who was there that day. The police don’t either, unless each person who had been there that day came forward and gave a statement, they could easily have missed people. Like us, they don’t know what they don’t know. Know what I mean?

 

[M. Kay]

Some are just more comfortable believing that the state always has it right even if the entire case is a patchwork from conflicting eyewitnesses and confessions from psychosis and there is no science anywhere to be found

Easily found a solid source reminder of DNA science "supporting the prosecution of this Delphi case": so it is false to post that there is none:

Family: Police have DNA in Delphi murders

The family member of a murdered Delphi teenager indicated that police may have DNA evidence related to the case.

www.kokomotribune.com

 

[Salah11]

I am saying, anything is possible. We don’t know who was there that day. The police don’t either, unless each person who had been there that day came forward and gave a statement, they could easily have missed people. Like us, they don’t know what they don’t know. Know what I mean?

I know what your saying but I don’t agree

RA and those girls saw each other and the probably cause indicates that.

The same way RA admits he went out and stood on platform one and BB comes along and sees him standing out there.

The Video of BG helps these witnesses identify who they saw that afternoon as well which is handy.

IMHO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Well said. Nobody has said these guys were cleared. Nobody has been cleared, per Doug Carter.

Do I think they did it? I have no idea, but it's compelling reasonable doubt, like it or not.

IMO MOO

People HAVE been cleared!

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen's attorneys accuse police of hiding evidence

Police cleared Holder during the early stages of the investigation and was never charged.

Indiana State Police Lt. Jerry Holeman, one of the key investigators, testified Tuesday about Holder's alibi on the day the girls were killed. Investigators believe the murders happened between 2:30 p.m. and 3:30 p.m. Feb. 13,

 

[photographer4]

I know what your saying but I don’t agree

RA and those girls saw each other and the probably cause indicates that.

The same way RA admits he went out and stood on platform one and BB comes along and sees him standing out there.

The Video of BG helps these witnesses identify who they saw that afternoon as well which is handy.

IMHO

Sure - the kids could have seen RA and he coulda seen them. He could well have gone to platform one and been seen by BB. But that still doesn’t make him the definitive killer imo. Depending on which timelines people go with (the State’s timeline, RA’s timelines etc)… then it all gets a bit muddy. I’m just saying the State really needs to figure out and prove their timeline over any of the others that have been suggested, including by ISP themselves.

 

[twall]

Easily found a solid source reminder of DNA science "supporting the prosecution of this Delphi case": so it is false to post that there is none:

Family: Police have DNA in Delphi murders

The family member of a murdered Delphi teenager indicated that police may have DNA evidence related to the case.

www.kokomotribune.com

The article is behing a paywall so I cannot read it but the title and the first sentence contradict one another. Key word MAY.

 

[TTF14]

People HAVE been cleared!

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen's attorneys accuse police of hiding evidence

Police cleared Holder during the early stages of the investigation and was never charged.

Indiana State Police Lt. Jerry Holeman, one of the key investigators, testified Tuesday about Holder's alibi on the day the girls were killed. Investigators believe the murders happened between 2:30 p.m. and 3:30 p.m. Feb. 13,

I'll stick with what Doug Carter said, right after RA was arrested. "We haven't cleared anybody."