Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192

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A metal detector coil is 5 to 12 inches, sometimes larger, but more often 8 to 10 inches or so. It's likely they didn't sweep the scene on day 1, probably not day 2 either. It takes a long time to sweep an area with a 10 inch coil and ensure absolute coverage. One rule in detecting...the coil has to pass over, or extremely close to an object in order to detect it.

My experience tells me chances are good that bullet wasn't seen by walking around and looking down.
I am an avid metal detectorist and have a decent set of devices to work with. I don’t know if the police used one in their investigation but I wanted to provide some info on them so people understand how they work. Their original use was to sweep for mines.

Some of them can detect to a greater radius than ya might think.

I wonder if they did use a metal detector if they also found other bullets or things that we don’t know about yet?



 
Let’s look at this objectively.

RA said in an interview he had never loaned his gun to anybody. Yet mysteriously his gun managed to eject a unspent bullet between two dead bodies.

How did it get there if he isn’t involved?!… hmmm

The same man has no alibi and admits he was on the trails that day.

My concern regarding the validity of the tool marking evidence is that there is no scientific component to say how frequently this particular tool mark also occurs randomly. Not even going into the basic flaw of comparing fired vs unfired. I was researching DNA results so that I could compare the way that DNA results are calculated and offered to the court with the likelihood of this particular set of DNA being found randomly within the population. I found this quote to be relevant:

To say that two patterns match, without providing any scientifically valid estimate (or, at least, an upper bound) of the frequency with which such matches might occur by chance, is meaningless.



 
I am an avid metal detectorist and have a decent set of devices to work with. I don’t know if the police used one in their investigation but I wanted to provide some info on them so people understand how they work. Their original use was to sweep for mines.

Some of them can detect to a greater radius than ya might think.

I wonder if they did use a metal detector if they also found other bullets or things that we don’t know about yet?




Can they be used under water?
 
Would depend on what caused the glitch. If it was a rogue app, deleting and reset would resolve it unless the app was reinstalled. The question I have is how much data was overwritten and thus harder if not impossible to recover from before the reset?

Moooo.

Not sure if it was recoverable or not, but all Social Media and Texts were completely deleted from her cell phone when she did the full reset (factory reset).

Apparently, Libby didn't use Twitter much, but she did use Facebook, Instagram and Snapchat.

So, everything on that Iphone was gone with the reset.
 
I am an avid metal detectorist and have a decent set of devices to work with. I don’t know if the police used one in their investigation but I wanted to provide some info on them so people understand how they work. Their original use was to sweep for mines.

Some of them can detect to a greater radius than ya might think.

I wonder if they did use a metal detector if they also found other bullets or things that we don’t know about yet?



I have a question that I hope isn’t too silly that you may be able to answer as a metal detectorists. When we are talking about how deep they can detect, is this considering just solid soil or would it also include a leaf layer. Like if the item was 3 inches under the soil but under 4 inches of leaf litter, would that be 3 inches or 7 inches ? (Eta: does that include the air between the ground and the detector?) Does it say on your screen how low the items is ? Let me know if that was just garbled nonsense lol The only info I have is from watching the tv show the Detectorists (which is very good if anyone wants a new show)
 
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Not sure if it was recoverable or not, but all Social Media and Texts were completely deleted from her cell phone when she did the full reset (factory reset).

Apparently, Libby didn't use Twitter much, but she did use Facebook, Instagram and Snapchat.

So, everything on that Iphone was gone with the reset.
Not necessarily? She would also have had to delete the accounts with some of those apps to make them go away. Even then, I would wager some could be retrieved by the service itself via a warrant.

Eg: they’d have a hard time resurrecting anything from kik (app) imo as it didn’t keep a running history of texts - I think back then they deleted as soon as you logged out of the app. As in if you had to put in your password again; your last convo was deleted but the contact list wasn’t. I’d she signed out then it was prob gone from her device. Moo.

But FB - she would have either had to delete all the messages or delete her acct entirely to make that go away. If she did either it may have been easy for Fb to recover it all I’d Le had a warrant.

Not sure about IG and Snap.
 
Here's my question about the unspent round and its discovery. (I have no strong opinion yet on when it was found or the circumstances thereof but I have questions). Several articles say, citing the PCA, that it was found between the victims' bodies, less than two feet from Victim 2. Here's one such link: https://fox59.com/news/indycrime/ho...ly-links-richard-allen-to-the-delphi-murders/

The way this is stated with a distance (less than two feet from) makes it sound as though the girls' bodies were still in situ when the bullet was found. If it truly was found days or even weeks later I would think they could only say "within the general area of the bodies" as contrary to old tv shows, investigators really don't leave chalk outlines of victims around once they clear a scene! IMO of course.

So how did they come up with a qualifiers like "between the bodies" and "less than 2 feet from." Do they plan to have a tech testify to explain how they estimated that? Unless it was found contemporaneously and BMcD's sources were wrong.

Edit to say: I am aware that a crime scene would be extensively mapped for evidence but I still find the details quite specific if the round was indeed found days or weeks later.
 
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I have a question that I hope isn’t too silly that you may be able to answer as a metal detectorists. When we are talking about how deep they can detect, is this considering just solid soil or would it also include a leaf layer. Like if the item was 3 inches under the soil but under 4 inches of leaf litter, would that be 3 inches or 7 inches ? (Eta: does that include the air between the ground and the detector?) Does it say on your screen how low the items is ? Let me know if that was just garbled nonsense lol The only info I have is from watching the tv show the Detectorists (which is very good if anyone wants a new show)
Depends on the device and how good the person is at interpreting the signals. lol. some will tell you how far down, I have an ancient radio shack one that doesn’t. It’s all about knowing your location and what the machine can and can’t do and how to target for the area and your needs. You can set sensitivity or filter out certain things so it won’t alert for them.

But yea if you hold it at knee height and it has a depth of one foot you’ll likely miss things. You wanna hold them close to the ground as ya can. Sweep technique is everything and a pinpointer helps a lot!

Does this help?
 
Here's my question about the unspent round and its discovery. (I have no strong opinion yet on when it was found or the circumstances thereof but I have questions). Several articles say, citing the PCA, that it was found between the victims' bodies, less than two feet from Victim 2. Here's one such link: https://fox59.com/news/indycrime/ho...ly-links-richard-allen-to-the-delphi-murders/

The way this is stated with a distance (less than two feet from) makes it sound as though the girls' bodies were still in situ when the bullet was found. If it truly was found days or even weeks later I would think they could only say "within the general area of the bodies" as contrary to old tv shows, investigators really don't leave chalk outlines of victims around once they clear a scene! IMO of course.

So how did they come up with a qualifiers like "between the bodies" and "less than 2 feet from." Do they plan to have a tech testify to explain how they estimated that? Unless it was found contemporaneously and BMcD's sources were wrong.

Edit to say: I am aware that a crime scene would be extensively mapped for evidence but I still find the details quite specific if the round was indeed found days or weeks later.
thank you, I have looked and looked for any source aside from Barbara McDonald that the bullet was found days later after crime scene was cleared and I cannot find anything to substantiate that statement she made.
 
Here's my question about the unspent round and its discovery. (I have no strong opinion yet on when it was found or the circumstances thereof but I have questions). Several articles say, citing the PCA, that it was found between the victims' bodies, less than two feet from Victim 2. Here's one such link: https://fox59.com/news/indycrime/ho...ly-links-richard-allen-to-the-delphi-murders/

The way this is stated with a distance (less than two feet from) makes it sound as though the girls' bodies were still in situ when the bullet was found. If it truly was found days or even weeks later I would think they could only say "within the general area of the bodies" as contrary to old tv shows, investigators really don't leave chalk outlines of victims around once they clear a scene! IMO of course.

So how did they come up with a qualifiers like "between the bodies" and "less than 2 feet from." Do they plan to have a tech testify to explain how they estimated that? Unless it was found contemporaneously and BMcD's sources were wrong.

Edit to say: I am aware that a crime scene would be extensively mapped for evidence but I still find the details quite specific if the round was indeed found days or weeks later.
I don’t know the real answer, but I can share that we’ve seen a few conflicting descriptions of where it was found. Motion to suppress 2nd statement, Holeman says 6 inches from the body and then “down by the dead girls foot” (I won’t screenshot the one with all the F bombs but It’s page 10) and pg 31 of franks motion is asking for more information, so it doesn’t appear like the defense were given much info on it. Was it Barb McDonald that said 2 feet away and several inches under the ground? I’ll have to look for a source for that one. These just are instances that I could think of off the top of my head, so there may be more suggestions in other docs as well.

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One More Thing

Two deer
were standing right next to the girls when they were found. In fact, that is more or less how they discovered Abby and Libby.

I'm wondering what other animals may have been there throughout the night, and if there were other animals, was anything possibly disturbed or not.
 
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Depends on the device and how good the person is at interpreting the signals. lol. some will tell you how far down, I have an ancient radio shack one that doesn’t. It’s all about knowing your location and what the machine can and can’t do and how to target for the area and your needs. You can set sensitivity or filter out certain things so it won’t alert for them.

But yea if you hold it at knee height and it has a depth of one foot you’ll likely miss things. You wanna hold them close to the ground as ya can. Sweep technique is everything and a pinpointer helps a lot!

Does this help?
Thank you! That makes sense :)
 
I have a question that I hope isn’t too silly that you may be able to answer as a metal detectorists. When we are talking about how deep they can detect, is this considering just solid soil or would it also include a leaf layer. Like if the item was 3 inches under the soil but under 4 inches of leaf litter, would that be 3 inches or 7 inches ? (Eta: does that include the air between the ground and the detector?) Does it say on your screen how low the items is ? Let me know if that was just garbled nonsense lol The only info I have is from watching the tv show the Detectorists (which is very good if anyone wants a new show)
I've done training seminars related to detecting. This question comes up in EVERY seminar. Different detectors have better, or worser (ha!, not a word) capabilities.

A larger, solid, heavy mass item often can be detected deeper than a small item such as a dime, and a dime laying flat can often be detected deeper than one that's buried in a vertical position.

My detector does have a depth gauge, and I use it to determine depth of course, but also on certain sites to weed out items lying closer to the surface in an attempt to dig deeper items that may be older.

Often times too, items will only work their way down a few inches, some times this is related to the weight of the object. Most items I dig in North America are between 2 and 6 inches deep.

Your question as to whether leaves count in determining depth, I'd say for the most part, yes. If I hear a signal, I'll often kick the leaf matter away, so as to get a better hearing on that signal. Leaf matter on the forest floor can often be quite thick, 4 inches or more. If I hear a signal in the ground, with my coil close to the ground, and raise my coil to knee height, I often cannot hear that signal any more.

And yes, assuming they detected the area, it's likely they dug other stuff, probably a couple beer tabs, bottle caps, maybe a spent rifle shell from years gone by, wadded up aluminum foil, rusted nails or who knows what. A recently ejected bullet would be an obvious sound in my detector, loud and clear, and it would also be obvious by the coloring of the brass as to approximately how long it had been there.
 
One More Thing

Two deer
were standing right next to the girls when they were found. In fact, that is more or less how they discovered Abby and Libby.

I'm wondering what other animals may have been there throughout the night, and if there were other animals, was anything possibly disturbed or not.
Could a creature have carried a bullet from location A to where it was found? Just wondering. I know crows carry all sorts of things about and learning that surprised me!

 
from the DT's MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT of FRANK'S MOTION filed on 9/18/23 page 31
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://storage.googleapis.com/www-courttv-uploads/2023/09/0d06f0fa-in_v_allen_memorandum-in-support-of-motionpdf.pdf

hopefully we can put the whole found days later at unsecured crime scene nonsense to bed. It never happened. Despite what Barbara McDonald said on court tv

ETA After posting I scrolled up and see that Granny beat me to this tidbit, although I think we might have been searching for it for different reason ;)

1723750885569.png
 
I've done training seminars related to detecting. This question comes up in EVERY seminar. Different detectors have better, or worser (ha!, not a word) capabilities.

A larger, solid, heavy mass item often can be detected deeper than a small item such as a dime, and a dime laying flat can often be detected deeper than one that's buried in a vertical position.

My detector does have a depth gauge, and I use it to determine depth of course, but also on certain sites to weed out items lying closer to the surface in an attempt to dig deeper items that may be older.

Often times too, items will only work their way down a few inches, some times this is related to the weight of the object. Most items I did in North America are between 2 and 6 inches deep.

Your question as to whether leaves count in determining depth, I'd say for the most part, yes. If I hear a signal, I'll often kick the leaf matter away, so as to get a better hearing on that signal. Leaf matter on the forest floor can often be quite thick, 4 inches or more. If I hear a signal in the ground, and raise my coil to knee height, I often cannot hear that signal any more.

And yes, assuming they detected the area, it's likely they dug other stuff, probably a couple beer tabs, bottle caps, maybe a spent rifle shell from years gone by, wadded up aluminum foil, rusted nails or who knows what. A recently ejected bullet would be an obvious sound in my detector, loud and clear, and it would also be obvious by the coloring of the brass as to approximately how long it had been there.
Thank you so much for that info! I’m glad to hear that others have wondered the same as me and my thought process wasn’t too out to lunch!
 
Can you give me specifics on which witness said what to “debunk” the original suspects ? I can’t seem to get any answers and I see these generic claims so often, I’d really like to know what I’ve missed.

Original suspects?
 
Could a creature have carried a bullet from location A to where it was found? Just wondering. I know crows carry all sorts of things about and learning that surprised me!


Maybe this can form part of another Franks Motion. It’s no more crazy than a cult committing these murders. I don’t think the Jury will buy it though.

I guess we can now add Woodland creatures into this so called Conspiracy:D
IMO
 

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