Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192

[TTF14]

The source you linked states that KG was on the phone call with her boyfriend when she dropped off the girls.
This phone call began at 1:38.
So KG dropped off the girls at some point after 1:38.
So the 1:38 start of a phone call does not time stamp the drop off time. Without knowing long the call was we can’t even narrow the window.
Basically we know it happened after 1:38 and before HH capture at 1:49pm.

just my opinion based on the facts presented in the video that was source.

Correct, but I also mentioned The Scene of the Crime podcast that Kelsi was a consulting producer of (and Gray Hughes a producer). In that, the narrator says the girls "hopped out of the car" at "1:38 or 1:39" and that was based on that phone call that came in.

Here's a link to one place you can listen to the podcast, although there many other places, like Apple, Spotify, etc.: Delphi: Abby and Libby

 

[TTF14]

I guess I feel like they need to focus on attacking the actual facts of the case and less on trying to implicate some loose group of people that they have to rely on a ton of very strange speculations lining up to make work. I don’t see a jury buying unknowns and speculation when the state will be mostly presenting facts.

Odinists were useful pre-trial to try and get the warrant thrown out. That failed. Move on.

My opinion only.

The timeline falls under "facts of the case" in my book.

 

[legalmomma]

This link has the Memorandum filed 8/15 by the defense in a better format:
MEMORANDUM OF LAW IN SUPPORT OF ADMISSIONOF EVIDENCE OF ALTERNATIVE THEORIES OF THE CRIME AND THIRD-PARTY PERPETRATORS

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/15/Brief-in-Opposition-to-States-M-1.pdf

 

[m00c0w]

The timeline falls under "facts of the case" in my book.

Yes, we’re in agreement.

 

[legalmomma]

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

08/15/2024

Memorandum/Brief Filed Memorandum of Law in Support of Admission of Evidence of Alternative Theories of the Crime Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 08/15/2024

https://www.scribd.com/document/759579708/Richard-Allen-Brief-in-Opposition-to-States-Motion-in-Limine

This link has the Memorandum filed 8/15 by the defense in a better format:
MEMORANDUM OF LAW IN SUPPORT OF ADMISSIONOF EVIDENCE OF ALTERNATIVE THEORIES OF THE CRIME AND THIRD-PARTY PERPETRATORS

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/15/Brief-in-Opposition-to-States-M-1.pdf

I do not recall this??:
"Brad Holder’s alibi for 3:30 p.m. on February 13, 2017 is meaningless, as is his alleged alibi that he was at Workout Anytime at 2:00 a.m. on February 14, 2017 (the only time he ever went to the gym at 2:00 a.m.). Dep. Brad Holder, p. 28-29" BBM

This is the Holder alibi I recall:
Holeman testified that employee records show Holder, who worked at a landfill about a half-hour away from Delphi, clocked out at 2:45 p.m. He then checked in using a key fob at a gym in Logansport at 4:08 p.m.

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen's attorneys accuse police of hiding evidence

Richard Allen's attorneys argue police were too quick in clearing a man with ties to one of the victims and Odinism.

www.indystar.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

This link has the Memorandum filed 8/15 by the defense in a better format:
MEMORANDUM OF LAW IN SUPPORT OF ADMISSIONOF EVIDENCE OF ALTERNATIVE THEORIES OF THE CRIME AND THIRD-PARTY PERPETRATORS

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/15/Brief-in-Opposition-to-States-M-1.pdf

Thanks! It's always good to have a couple in case one goes *poof*.

 

[m00c0w]

I do not recall this??:
"Brad Holder’s alibi for 3:30 p.m. on February 13, 2017 is meaningless, as is his alleged alibi that he was at Workout Anytime at 2:00 a.m. on February 14, 2017 (the only time he ever went to the gym at 2:00 a.m.). Dep. Brad Holder, p. 28-29" BBM

This is the Holder alibi I recall:
Holeman testified that employee records show Holder, who worked at a landfill about a half-hour away from Delphi, clocked out at 2:45 p.m. He then checked in using a key fob at a gym in Logansport at 4:08 p.m.

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen's attorneys accuse police of hiding evidence

Richard Allen's attorneys argue police were too quick in clearing a man with ties to one of the victims and Odinism.

www.indystar.com

Based on the context, I believe he was asked in deposition where he was the morning of February 14. He answered that he was working out at 2am, like he always does, which is also substantiated by a Facebook post he made previously iirc.

The defense is saying that if the murder actually happened at 4:33am, both of BH’s alibis (work in the afternoon, gym in the early morning) don’t actually exclude him.

My opinion since I wasn’t at the deposition.

Edit to add:

Also note the difference between “alibi” and “alleged alibi”. The defense seems to be conceding that BH has a valid alibi for the afternoon.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Getting names and info wrong or incorrect isn't exactly ideal, but not being able to recognise someone after directly speaking to them face to face plus seeing a video that is potentially supposed to be that very same person is quite another.

How is it that 1+1 wasn't 2 to him when it came to:

1 The narrative exchange between himself and RA + 1 The video of BG on the bridge equating 2 RA=BG.

What happened I wonder for him to have missed

9

 

[photographer4]

We will do that in the trial but for now there is a gag order...


It has to be 'reasonable' doubt, not just a sliver of possible doubt.

Show us there is evidence of some kind that Holder and EF , PW and friends were all in Delphi at least, let alone they were in that park.

We have shown that RA was there with the girls on the bridge moments before they were kidnapped. I can't get excited about the real killer being Holder if he was at his job that day, in a different town.


Reasonable 'suspects' is not enough. Motive, Means and Opportunity. Just because someone was once a suspect is not enough, it has to be shown there was a possibility they could have done it. Were they in the area, at the right time with the means to do it?


That's what the trial is for. BTW, I don't think the police have to concern themselves with the 'dissenters' before they arrest a suspect if they have substantial evidence.

I don't think there are any glaring loose ends. I think it is just manipulation and smoke and mirrors from the D and their social media gaslighting everyone.


So before Homicide Detectivess arrest their prime suspect, after a 6 year investigation, they need to check with the public and the true crime fans to make sure it is a popular opinion?

Same stuff, just regurgitated.

Your post reminds me of why I wouldn’t want to leave my fate in the hands of 12 random jurors with lawyers on both sides fighting tooth and nail for their vote. What is a sliver of doubt to you in this case is more than reasonable doubt to me.

Given what info the D gave in the very first Frank’s Motion, I have to say, I have some doubts about the State’s case right now. Further, given JG’s absolute unwillingness to have a Frank’s hearing, and without benefit of a written explanation of her decision, I’m left wondering, why not? What might JG know from reading the docs with the attached evidence that we do not? Well, we can’t assess that, and I’m not a super trusting person, so I don’t believe that the D has no case here.

In regards to the arrest, they MAY have had cause to search RA’s home etc, but it is clear that at least two sets of lawyers think there were issues with the search warrant. That says something to me about the state’s case.

In regards to SODDI, I’m not entirely convinced that LE did all they could to rule those guys in or out as possible suspects based on the arguments presented solely by the defence thus far. I think RA is guilty in some part. But I also don’t think he did this entirely alone. What was the motive? No idea. Who else may have been involved or how? Not sure. I kinda think they picked up RA thinking he was gonna break and tell them the whole story and yet, it seems he hasn’t. Even if he has made 60 or so “confessions” it doesn’t seem they include anyone else - or that anyone else has been implicated as a result… that is interesting to me. i think there is a lot more to the story, and I do NOT believe we’re ever going to to know it.

MOOOO

 

[TTF14]

Your post reminds me of why I wouldn’t want to leave my fate in the hands of 12 random jurors with lawyers on both sides fighting tooth and nail for their vote. What is a sliver of doubt to you in this case is more than reasonable doubt to me.

Given what info the D gave in the very first Frank’s Motion, I have to say, I have some doubts about the State’s case right now. Further, given JG’s absolute unwillingness to have a Frank’s hearing, and without benefit of a written explanation of her decision, I’m left wondering, why not? What might JG know from reading the docs with the attached evidence that we do not? Well, we can’t assess that, and I’m not a super trusting person, so I don’t believe that the D has no case here.

In regards to the arrest, they MAY have had cause to search RA’s home etc, but it is clear that at least two sets of lawyers think there were issues with the search warrant. That says something to me about the state’s case.

In regards to SODDI, I’m not entirely convinced that LE did all they could to rule those guys in or out as possible suspects based on the arguments presented solely by the defence thus far. I think RA is guilty in some part. But I also don’t think he did this entirely alone. What was the motive? No idea. Who else may have been involved or how? Not sure. I kinda think they picked up RA thinking he was gonna break and tell them the whole story and yet, it seems he hasn’t. Even if he has made 60 or so “confessions” it doesn’t seem they include anyone else - or that anyone else has been implicated as a result… that is interesting to me. i think there is a lot more to the story, and I do NOT believe we’re ever going to to know it.

MOOOO

Agree with every word.

My fear is that if he's found guilty, there will never be complete justice for Abby and Libby. The State will drop it and many others will go free.

IMO MOO

 

[mrjitty]

According to the defense documents, after receiving a buccal swab (which is essentially spit), he asked if his spit was found on one of the girls but he could provide an explanation, would he still be in trouble. It seems apparent to me that he was trying to potentially rationalize why his spit was collected and was freaking out about the possibility of somehow being implicated in the crime. That is not the same as admitting he spit on anyone, and also not the same as just asking the question in a vacuum. It would hold more weight, IMO, if his saliva was not just collected and on his mind.

Regardless, the one question does not establish probable cause that evidence of the murder of AW and LG would be found at EF’s house. Even if a white truck was seen at the CPS building after searching had started. Even if they can’t firmly place EF anywhere. Most importantly, they can’t place him near the crime scene. They have to provide evidence he at least participated in the murders, which they had none. They had a question, a random white truck, and a lack of evidence. That’s barely getting over a reasonable suspicion threshold.

All my opinion.

I have to agree - in context, that statement didn't sound like a confession to me.

 

[tlcya]

Based on the context, I believe he was asked in deposition where he was the morning of February 14. He answered that he was working out at 2am, like he always does, which is also substantiated by a Facebook post he made previously iirc.

The defense is saying that if the murder actually happened at 4:33am, both of BH’s alibis (work in the afternoon, gym in the early morning) don’t actually exclude him.

My opinion since I wasn’t at the deposition.

what is confusing about BH timeline differences between the State and DT is that BH clocked out at quarter of 3pm on the day of the murders. He worked out (evidenced by his use of a key fob to enter the gym) at 4:08pm in Logansport (one half hour away from Delphi). DT claims BH also went to the gym at 2:00 am the following morning. Do they have any evidence his key fob was used in that instance? Or was his early morning workout at home?

I need to read the deposition because I want to read for myself his statements in total. Actually I need to go back and read all the FMs in sequence to see how the DT's theory has evolved as presented with evidence of facts to the contrary ala Todd Click coming out after their first one to say NONE of us in LE thought this was ritual sacrifice, they are sensationalizing.

However, I think this is key to understanding why the DT is trying so hard to establish the phone allegedly turning on at 4:33 am. Because BH has an alibi for the afternoon period the girls were taken and murdered.

So DT must now somehow prove that BH (and presumable Odin cohorts) must have removed the girls from the area then returned in the wee hours to murder them and Odin up the scene where they were ultimately found. Apparently this occurred while the entire town was on high alert because two girls were missing.

I would find it laughable if two girls weren't dead. MOO IMO

 

[justtrish]

Question sorta related to the timeline.

If the girls died at 2:30pm or so on 2/13 wouldn't a coroner or ME be able to tell that or at least be able to distinguish between them dying about 430am on 2/14 (14 hours later) and if they had actually been dead nearly 24 hours when they were discovered on 2/14?

 

[photographer4]

Well, the Sister of Libby begs to differ, and I'm going to say she knows a lot more about this matter than anybody else, considering she dropped them off that afternoon.


But then the prosecution don't need to make up stuff to try and get RA off. They are not the ones with the agenda and trying to fit square pegs in round holes. IMO

If they’re not trying to make the evidence fit RA, then it will difficult for the D to wiggle out or even around the accusations against him imo. I see just as many issues with the D’s case thus far as I do with the State’s case. The bullet is of primary concern imo — still waiting to see if the suggest that crows delivered it there. LMAO.

 

[m00c0w]

I think RA is guilty in some part. But I also don’t think he did this entirely alone. What was the motive? No idea. Who else may have been involved or how? Not sure. I kinda think they picked up RA thinking he was gonna break and tell them the whole story and yet, it seems he hasn’t. Even if he has made 60 or so “confessions” it doesn’t seem they include anyone else - or that anyone else has been implicated as a result… that is interesting to me. i think there is a lot more to the story, and I do NOT believe we’re ever going to to know it.

RSBM

If he was involved, he would still be guilty of the charges against him (felony murder). It doesn’t matter if others have been charged, it just matters that he was properly charged. Hopefully if more folks were involved and he actually was involved, he will cooperate at some point and reveal their identities.

JMO

 

[photographer4]

(RSBBM)

There is no evidence of this. That’s the big issue in this case. The state can’t just say BG=RA, they have to actually prove it.

Well, what I think the State is trying to do actually, is suggest it, and hope that the circumstantial evidence leads jurors to buy their theory that RA was BG. It seems at a glance to make sense really - he was on the bridge. Did he leave before the girls arrived? Depends on which source one believes. Did he follow them out and the rest we know? OR… was some other guy already at the other end, walk out and then double back on the kids and then we know the rest??

The ONLY thing that gives me pause is the bullet atm. And I’m not even confident it is HIS. I’m not sure of the “science” they’re relying on to show it couldn’t be anyone else’s - and I haven’t the patience to learn about it at the moment. I am not a juror, so I don’t have to either. I can say I find it sketchy and it be MOO because I’m not deciding some guy’s fate going forward. Jurors won’t have that luxury and I hope the science can be dumbed way down to help them understand it AND believe it, otherwise, this case is in trouble imo.

 

[photographer4]

RSBM

If he was involved, he would still be guilty of the charges against him (felony murder). It doesn’t matter if others have been charged, it just matters that he was properly charged. Hopefully if more folks were involved and he actually was involved, he will cooperate at some point and reveal their identities.

JMO

I have never questioned this - if he is guilty in some way, then he should do the time. If something he did lead to the kids ending up dead, then however small a part he may have played is not my problem, it is his. I understand the state has to go after him as a solo perp because they can’t prove or haven’t proven well enough that anyone else was involved. I am certain that if they could, they would.

 

[FrostedGlass]

If they’re not trying to make the evidence fit RA, then it will difficult for the D to wiggle out or even around the accusations against him imo. I see just as many issues with the D’s case thus far as I do with the State’s case. The bullet is of primary concern imo — still waiting to see if the suggest that crows delivered it there. LMAO.

"Feathers" was not listed on any of the search warrants we've seen. I can't remember what was listed on RL's warrant. Animal hair, otoh, was. Good thing RA didn't own a Davy Crockett style coonskin hat.

LOGAN WARRANT final_Redacted.pdf

et he rS de. ur M. et he rS de. ur M. et he rS de. ur M. ...

www.docdroid.net

 

[m00c0w]

Thinking about it more, I could see a plea deal being offered to RA to avoid the embarrassment/exposure of trial… but one of the conditions is he must give a complete and accurate recounting of events. If something he says does not align with the state’s evidence, deal is off and it all comes out at trial. This may lead to additional people if they exist.

Just thinking out loud. My opinion only.

 

[photographer4]

How much weight does a FaceBook ISP website for the masses hold? That article was put out in the first weeks or so of the investigation. Why are we holding the to an approximate time given in March of 2017?

Do you know who is in charge of those websites?

Do you think it is the Homicide Detectives updating the 'MISSING' persons article to be posted? I am pretty certain that it is interns or academy applicants, who volunteer their time in the precincts, that are in charge of that stuff. It is not a detective or investigator.

There is ZERO reason to believe that the DA does not know precisely what time the girls arrived at the park the day they died. Looking at a FB website which says they arrived 'around 1 pm' is NOT proof that the detectives did not find out the actual time of arrival.

And trying to use that government website article from 2017 on FaceBook is a perfect example of how I think the Defense keeps trying to spin things by using misleading or distorted 'facts.' JMO

Well let me clarify this - this isn’t a FB website - that is the ISP (Indiana State Police) website. I did note that it doesn’t seem to have been updated accordingly with new information over the years. Regardless, my point still stands - their own police website still says around 1pm. It’s not a good look for the LE imo if they’re still going with that timeline and the Prosecutor isn’t.

Delphi Homicide Investigation

www.in.gov

Actually, now that I’m looking at it again, can’t help but notice, they have the YBG sketch up - wasn’t that released in 2019 at the press conf? I’ll come back with a link to edit into this post in a moment…. Weird. Where is the OBG sketch? ETA link as promised. It also says this YBG is NOT the same person as the original sketch.

Delphi murders: New suspect sketch not same man as in old sketch, ISP clarifies

As questions swirl over new direction in murders of Abby Williams and Libby German, ISP clarifies that sketches are meant to be different men. Only one’s a suspect.

www.jconline.com

The FBI website ALSO shows only the YBG sketch… no OBG on there…. Also weird…. I’ll be back with that link too…
As promised: https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/liberty-german