Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #193

[gremlin444]

Some antidepressants can actually make one suicidal. They can do all sorts of horrible things to people....

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatments/antidepressants/side-effects-of-antidepressants/

However, as far as the news was reporting for what Dr. Wala said, he was not on an antidepressant. He was given injections of Haldol, which is an antipsychotic. It does not have black box suicide warnings like antidepressants. While high dosages and long use can have a boatload of negative side effects, the risks to watch out for with Haldol are things like muscular twitching, stiffening posture, tongue thrusting, etc not increased suicidal ideation.

https://fox59.com/news/detective-testifies-richard-allen-confessed-more-than-60-times-to-delphi-murders/

 

[katydid23]

However, as far as the news was reporting for what Dr. Wala said, he was not on an antidepressant. He was given injections of Haldol, which is an antipsychotic. It does not have black box suicide warnings like antidepressants. While high dosages and long use can have a boatload of negative side effects, the risks to watch out for with Haldol are things like muscular twitching, stiffening posture, tongue thrusting, etc not increased suicidal ideation.

https://fox59.com/news/detective-testifies-richard-allen-confessed-more-than-60-times-to-delphi-murders/

Would Haldol increase chances of false confessions?

 

[SouthEnd]

Would Haldol increase chances of false confessions?

I haven't seen it used as truth serum anywhere online...

Seriously, would appreciate if someone had experience of how widespread antipsychotics are in prisons/jails.

From some basic googling, I found this report on a specific prison:

"A total of 46 out of 336 prisoners (13.7%) had been prescribed antipsychotic medications; 29 of the 46 patients (84.8%) were also prescribed other psychotropic medications at the same time. Quetiapine was the most frequently prescribed antipsychotic and was also the most likely to be prescribed for off-label indications. Less than one-third of all antipsychotic prescriptions were for psychotic disorders."

Review of antipsychotic prescribing at HMP/YOI Low Newton - PMC

The purpose of this review was to establish whether the prescription of antipsychotic medication in HMP Low Newton was safe, rational and consistent with current best practice. A search of the electronic healthcare records was performed on 14 March ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

From some additional browsing, it seems that anywhere between 15 to 20% of male prisoners are given antipsychotics. It seems to be a go-to response to aggression/tantrums/mental health concerns.

Prevalence and appropriateness of psychotropic medication prescribing in a nationally representative cross-sectional survey of male and female prisoners in England - BMC Psychiatry

Background Mental illness is highly prevalent among prisoners. Although psychotropic medicines can ameliorate symptoms of mental illness, prescribers in prisons must balance clinical needs against risks to safety and security. Concerns have been raised at the large number of prisoners reportedly...

bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com

I didn't find any research correlating antipsychotics with false confessions.

I am not a doctor, I only know Google.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I wonder how much was playing acting to get away from the million of confessions. Hopefully we will hear at the trail if he had been in contact with his lawyers before these manic episodes started.

MOO

Eating his own feces is extreme by any measure, imoo. Do you know who reported that? Was it one person only or multiple people? A guard or other personnel?

I'm trying to catch up on a whole bunch on this case. I'm so torn. I was inclined to say that a confession is a confession, why isn't he pleading guilty? But some of the reported behavior, conditions, etc. really give me pause. I've always wanted to be on a jury, but I wouldn't want to be on this one.

They haven't said I suppose if he gave a motive in these confessions? I sure hope that the justice system can sort out all of this.

Remembering Abby and Libby tonight, and hoping for justice that is true.

 

[susiQ]

I don't think they "waited" at all (it is the Defence side alledging cover ups & collusion since the murders in 2017 to frame up RA). I'm saying, in what world does it make sense for the State to plant evidence at the scene in 2017 (RA's bullet ... and his own statement) and then collude and conspire for years to arrest RA for the crime. It simply does not. They'd have arrested him years ago ...

RSBBM
As far as we know, nowhere did the D allege that LE have been colluding to frame RA since 2017.
What they are saying is that some LE did not investigate certain individuals thoroughly since 2017, whilst others wanted to continue their investigation into third party actors. Amazingly, after 5 1/2 years they discover a “tip” which was actually RA coming to them to say he was at the trails that day and that he left by 1:30, but of course DD can’t find his video. Shucks, videos seem to be missing all over the place in this case! I have to wonder if RA was EVER tipped in by anyone like some other characters we are aware of. People can tell me all day long that they were “cleared.” I suppose that’s easy enough to do when you never take the time to fully investigate those people. How many phones did they check in total?? But not theirs?? Who are they protecting and why? All MOO MOO MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

When you lose someone you truly love you Never Ever get over it,You just learn to live with it as Best you can...
In this particular case it would be a huge burden lifted to not have to Wonder about the Who and Why...
Can you imagine wondering everytime you go outside your home if the killer is there or nearby???

Exactly.

Can we also add that releasing a child killer puts many at risk, IMO.

 

[joe jones]

One could look upon his confessions as him feeling like he had to give them something to relieve the pressure he felt he was under, I think he had worsening mental health and was seriously struggling, I liken it to what people have said happens when they falsely confess due to the tactics used by LE during interrogation, they say they only confessed because they could not withstand the pressure any longer.
I also would like to know how many confessions pre him getting discovery versus post discovery, and did his confessions start out with specific crime scene knowledge pre him getting discovery.
I have yet to learn what he did actually say, I have read they have some of his confessions recorded and if the recorded confessions are detailed enough the defences job is made almost impossible as the jury will get to hear what he has said, and the defence can and should explain how he was housed and his mental health problems but once the jury hears him say he did it and how he did it there isn't much they can argue that would end in NG

 

[Vern]

I'm certain the jury will hear at least some of the confessions at trial (because that's where actual evidence is presented). All the ones he made while on the phone to his family member would be recorded at a minimum.

 

[TTF14]

I'm certain the jury will hear at least some of the confessions at trial (because that's where actual evidence is presented). All the ones he made while on the phone to his family member would be recorded at a minimum.

But unless he gave details only the killer would know before he received the discovery and before any guards or other personnel shared information with him they knew from the discovery, those confessions will be just some in a long line of confessions made while being, IMO, psychologically tortured.

IMO MOO

 

[photographer4]

When you lose someone you truly love you Never Ever get over it,You just learn to live with it as Best you can...
In this particular case it would be a huge burden lifted to not have to Wonder about the Who and Why...
Can you imagine wondering everytime you go outside your home if the killer is there or nearby???

Yes. Yes I can actually.

 

[FromGermany1]

Here is an interesting article about his tantrums:

Allen’s alleged confession to his wife​

Probably the biggest bombshell dropped in the documents was a jailhouse phone call between Allen and his wife, Kathy, on April 3 of this year. In the call, authorities said he admitted “several times” to kidnapping and killing Abby and Libby. What’s more, Kathy hung up on her husband — “abruptly ends the phone call” is the phrasing used in an April 20 motion by prosecutors.

Allen’s steep decline after the call​

Allen has not talked to his wife since Kathy hung up on him. In fact, authorities said he hasn’t made a single call, despite previously placing calls around twice a day since he was arrested. In the days after April 3, he refused to eat and sleep, and he destroyed the tablet he was given to send emails, listen to music and make phone calls, according to the prison warden. (It’s not clear whether these are the same as the “public jail phones” authorities said he used in the calls in which he allegedly confessed to Kathy and his mother.)

Shocking Details Of Delphi Murders And Suspect’s Health Revealed In Documents

The newly unsealed documents provide insight into what investigators found at the crime scene as well as their interactions with Richard Allen before and after his arrest.

www.huffpost.com

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/drugs/19626-haloperidol-tablets#:~:text=Haloperidol treats schizophrenia and manages,of haloperidol is Haldol®.

It wouldn't help the case, but I would like to know, if RA was always so dependent on the mood and behavior of his wife, before he got arrested.
If he is the BG/killer, I'm so angry about him: easily able to brutally murder even two girls, despite at least one girl's fierce resistance, but immediately as crazy as madman, if his wife just doesn't like to hear his confession (which would have relieved him, but disturbed her whole life in minutes). This little weak GUY (behaving like a naughty toddler), who even played the patron for Libby's family (funeral pics) and walked through town for 5,5 years with his head held high (I think)! How aaangry I am!

 

[m00c0w]

But unless he gave details only the killer would know before he received the discovery and before any guards or other personnel shared information with him they knew from the discovery, those confessions will be just some in a long line of confessions made while being, IMO, psychologically tortured.

IMO MOO

And what if he did give details that only a killer would know before having received discovery?

 

[katydid23]

But unless he gave details only the killer would know before he received the discovery and before any guards or other personnel shared information with him they knew from the discovery, those confessions will be just some in a long line of confessions made while being, IMO, psychologically tortured.

IMO MOO

It will be up to the jurors to decide if he made confessions because he was psychologically tortured. Because it's also possible he made them because he was feeling such guilt and regret that he felt the need to admit his crimes. The jury will hear his words and decide for themselves.

The jury will also have some evidence showing that he was right there on the bridge with the girls, right before they were forced off the bridge at gunpoint. If they add his confessions to that type of evidence, it might tip the scale to Guilty, IMO.

 

[katydid23]

One could look upon his confessions as him feeling like he had to give them something to relieve the pressure he felt he was under, I think he had worsening mental health and was seriously struggling, I liken it to what people have said happens when they falsely confess due to the tactics used by LE during interrogation, they say they only confessed because they could not withstand the pressure any longer.
I also would like to know how many confessions pre him getting discovery versus post discovery, and did his confessions start out with specific crime scene knowledge pre him getting discovery.
I have yet to learn what he did actually say, I have read they have some of his confessions recorded and if the recorded confessions are detailed enough the defences job is made almost impossible as the jury will get to hear what he has said, and the defence can and should explain how he was housed and his mental health problems but once the jury hears him say he did it and how he did it there isn't much they can argue that would end in NG

There was a discussion during the hearing that RA was feeling tremendous pressure after he had been reading the bible, and became worried that he would not be with his wife and family in heaven. And according to what he understood from his biblical studies, he NEEDED to confess his sins.

If the jury hears this info, especially if any of it was recorded in phone calls in his voice, then those confessions will take on a whole new significance, IMO. I would believe them to be true confessions as opposed to just a crazy psycho talking garbage. IMO

 

[Willow Knight]

RSBBM
As far as we know, nowhere did the D allege that LE have been colluding to frame RA since 2017.
What they are saying is that some LE did not investigate certain individuals thoroughly since 2017, whilst others wanted to continue their investigation into third party actors. Amazingly, after 5 1/2 years they discover a “tip” which was actually RA coming to them to say he was at the trails that day and that he left by 1:30, but of course DD can’t find his video. Shucks, videos seem to be missing all over the place in this case! I have to wonder if RA was EVER tipped in by anyone like some other characters we are aware of. People can tell me all day long that they were “cleared.” I suppose that’s easy enough to do when you never take the time to fully investigate those people. How many phones did they check in total?? But not theirs?? Who are they protecting and why? All MOO MOO MOO

All my opinion.

There may be other actors that were involved, directly or indirectly. Other than those in LE, not sure how any of us would know at this point.

DD did take notes of his interview with Richard Allen. DD noted that RA stated he was there, arriving at 1:30. DD's notes will be entered into evidence.

The thing is, even if there are other actors, it doesn't take RA off the bridge. The evidence we, the public, are hearing is related to RA because he is the one at trial.

 

[snarast]

I haven't seen it used as truth serum anywhere online...

Seriously, would appreciate if someone had experience of how widespread antipsychotics are in prisons/jails.

From some basic googling, I found this report on a specific prison:

"A total of 46 out of 336 prisoners (13.7%) had been prescribed antipsychotic medications; 29 of the 46 patients (84.8%) were also prescribed other psychotropic medications at the same time. Quetiapine was the most frequently prescribed antipsychotic and was also the most likely to be prescribed for off-label indications. Less than one-third of all antipsychotic prescriptions were for psychotic disorders."

Review of antipsychotic prescribing at HMP/YOI Low Newton - PMC

The purpose of this review was to establish whether the prescription of antipsychotic medication in HMP Low Newton was safe, rational and consistent with current best practice. A search of the electronic healthcare records was performed on 14 March ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

From some additional browsing, it seems that anywhere between 15 to 20% of male prisoners are given antipsychotics. It seems to be a go-to response to aggression/tantrums/mental health concerns.

Prevalence and appropriateness of psychotropic medication prescribing in a nationally representative cross-sectional survey of male and female prisoners in England - BMC Psychiatry

Background Mental illness is highly prevalent among prisoners. Although psychotropic medicines can ameliorate symptoms of mental illness, prescribers in prisons must balance clinical needs against risks to safety and security. Concerns have been raised at the large number of prisoners reportedly...

bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com

I didn't find any research correlating antipsychotics with false confessions.

I am not a doctor, I only know Google.

Haldol is very unlikely to induce false confessions - but with the brain strange reactions due to genetic quirks can’t be ruled out.

Still, this paper states that ideally meds like haldol (halperidol) blocks 72% of the D2 dopamine receptors. I’m no MD so I wont swear to it, but I would think that would slow you down quite a bit.

Antipsychotic Medications - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[mrjitty]

Haldol is very unlikely to induce false confessions - but with the brain strange reactions due to genetic quirks can’t be ruled out.

Still, this paper states that ideally meds like haldol (halperidol) blocks 72% of the D2 dopamine receptors. I’m no MD so I wont swear to it, but I would think that would slow you down quite a bit.

Antipsychotic Medications - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

From some experience I think any discussion needs to be careful about mixing up anti-psychotics, sedatives, anti-depressives etc etc with the actual condition of psychosis

A psychosis involves by definition, a break with reality.

Psychosis refers to a collection of symptoms that affect the mind, where there has been some loss of contact with reality. During an episode of psychosis, a person’s thoughts and perceptions are disrupted and they may have difficulty recognizing what is real and what is not.

My opinion only - sedatives might be given so the person can get rest and recover. Anti-psychotics to prevent risk of relapse and of course related risk of depression. The idea that they would cause false confessions seems cart before horse.

All of that said, when someone is in a psychotic state, it is in my experience fairly obvious to a 3rd party observer, especially a professional - what is real and what is not.

Understanding Psychosis

This fact sheet presents information on psychosis including causes, signs and symptoms, treatment, and resources for help.

www.nimh.nih.gov

MOO

 

[snarast]

From some experience I think any discussion needs to be careful about mixing up anti-psychotics, sedatives, anti-depressives etc etc with the actual condition of psychosis

A psychosis involves by definition, a break with reality.



My opinion only - sedatives might be given so the person can get rest and recover. Anti-psychotics to prevent risk of relapse and of course related risk of depression. The idea that they would cause false confessions seems cart before horse.

All of that said, when someone is in a psychotic state, it is in my experience fairly obvious to a 3rd party observer, especially a professional - what is real and what is not.

Understanding Psychosis

This fact sheet presents information on psychosis including causes, signs and symptoms, treatment, and resources for help.

www.nimh.nih.gov

MOO

Well said - totally agree. I have seen some very unexpected responses to medications in people I know, so even though I’m definitely pro meds - I respect the feelings of those that have experienced adverse effects. And the experts who observed RA are by far the ones I would rely on.

 

[Betty P]

From some experience I think any discussion needs to be careful about mixing up anti-psychotics, sedatives, anti-depressives etc etc with the actual condition of psychosis

A psychosis involves by definition, a break with reality.



My opinion only - sedatives might be given so the person can get rest and recover. Anti-psychotics to prevent risk of relapse and of course related risk of depression. The idea that they would cause false confessions seems cart before horse.

All of that said, when someone is in a psychotic state, it is in my experience fairly obvious to a 3rd party observer, especially a professional - what is real and what is not.

Understanding Psychosis

This fact sheet presents information on psychosis including causes, signs and symptoms, treatment, and resources for help.

www.nimh.nih.gov

MOO

Excellent link. Evidence based and very helpful for following cases here at WS when considering whether psychosis played a role.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I'm certain the jury will hear at least some of the confessions at trial (because that's where actual evidence is presented). All the ones he made while on the phone to his family member would be recorded at a minimum.

Not only audio recorded on phone calls, but video recorded. They kept RA under video surveillance so we'll see what was actually going on during these times of confessions.

What I doubt we'll see is a group of Odinist guards, taunting and forcing RA to say anything.

JMO