Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #194

[Vern]

Well they surely have investigated some things and have put many a scenario involving people and actions into the FMs while defending their client. I just thought I might have missed something, thanks anyway.

Absolutely. Also, IMO why would LE and the prosecution put out evidence before trial especially when under a gag order?

Why would they? That's not their jobs. Their jobs are to try the case and present the evidence in a court of law, not to the internet.

And, IMO, they shall.

 

[Vern]

MOO
From the beginning, when we learned where the bodies were found, I wondered: "Why there?"

(snipped from the link)
1. The location of the crime. Dr. Perlmutter testified that Odinism and Asatru are
nature-based ideologies. These murders took place outdoors in a clearing in a wooded
area near a body of water.

Brief in Opposition to State's M.pdf

drive.google.com

That reminded me of Awsi Dooger's post back in 2021, after he visited the bridge area:
(Snipped from the post for focus)
"The girls were apparently found just below a natural ledge that is roughly 18 inches high. Atop the ledge are a circle of trees. I have posted related photos a couple of times."

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #134

Maybe he didn't need to. Maybe he just wanted to. One of the signatures?

www.websleuths.com

I think whoever took Libby and Abby knew exactly where they wanted to murder them.

Thousands of murders have occured in wooded areas, clearings in woods, near water and even had victims covered by sticks and leaves etc. And sunset the 13th Feb to sunup on the 14th (the all important Odinist sacrifical time) isn't working with the testified to timeline of the murders either.

This is proof of nothing - especially of a ritualistic sacrificial murder by Odinists (or even one staged by other(s) to look as if it were).

But, I do agree that the individual who murdered them may have staked this place out during his earlier hikes of the MHB area and it's trails. Perhaps choosing it precisely because it was a 'bowl' within the surrounding woods and ergo less visible from the bridge etc when those trees were without their leaves and he'd have a bit more privacy to 'work'. But certainly didn't make the choice because "Odinism/heathenism/ritual cult/place of sacrifice/place of framing others etc IMO.

 

[susiQ]

Per the article, the grandmother didn’t tip in BH. She provided information to investigators immediately after the murders, possibly before the BG photo was released. I’m certain she was asked many questions by LE. She told all she knew, about many people who may have known the girls. She didn’t finger BH.

jmo

I respectfully disagree. BP did not provide information “immediately after the murders, possibly before the BG photo was released.” Officer Purdy came to the investigaion in March of 2017 and knew nothing of Odin or Odinists until around May or June 2017 which is when BP came to him to fill him in on AW’s relationship with the son of an Odinist. FM pg 50, linked below.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I respectfully disagree. BP did not provide information “immediately after the murders, possibly before the BG photo was released.” Officer Purdy came to the investigaion in March of 2017 and knew nothing of Odin or Odinists until around May or June 2017 which is when BP came to him to fill him in on AW’s relationship with the son of an Odinist. FM pg 50, linked below.

From the article linked by TTF in their post:
“Almost immediately after the killings, Libby’s grandmother, …., told investigators that the father of Abby’s boyfriend practiced Odinism, a Nordic pagan religion.”

I added the maybe before the photo was released, as my own speculation and possibility.

Maybe she was asked about known religious backgrounds of everyone. I personally did a deposition recently where I was asked questions of all sorts that seemed unusual.

https://fox59.com/news/judge-considers-motion-to-dismiss-charges-and-sanction-prosecutor-in-delphi-case/

 

[susiQ]

No, I doubt that, but this case is so crazy I guess it's possible! I mean I think the perpetrator(s) tried to make it look like some kind of heathen/pagan/Norse thing to either simply throw off investigators and send them on a wild goose chase or maybe even frame someone specifically (like BH). I'd be totally inclined to think it was to do just that (throw investigators off and/or frame BH) if EF hadn't confessed to his sister. That, and other information that came out in the March 18th hearing, makes me still wonder if it was not staging to misdirect and/or frame, but that they actually did it.

How RA fits into all of that, I don't know. I think there are multiple perpetrators (IMO) so I also think there could have been multiple motives/connections between perps. IMO MOO

IMO MOO

I don’t know if someone was trying to frame that particular Odinist, but it is very disturbing to see the pic that was captured from this particular Odin worshipper’s FB post (by the guy in Georgia, RB) that showed what appeared to be a young woman laid out intertwined in what I would call a “rune.” Totally bizarre. It gave me the creeps. The girl actually looks dead. Whether she was merely posed to look dead, I don’t know. What I do know is it makes me wonder why anyone would post such a picture. JMHO.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Thousands of murders have occured in wooded areas, clearings in woods, near water and even had victims covered by sticks and leaves etc. And sunset the 13th Feb to sunup on the 14th (the all important Odinist sacrifical time) isn't working with the testified to timeline of the murders either.

This is proof of nothing - especially of a ritualistic sacrificial murder by Odinists (or even one staged by other(s) to look as if it were).

But, I do agree that the individual who murdered them may have staked this place out during his earlier hikes of the MHB area and its trails. Perhaps choosing it precisely because it was a 'bowl' within the surrounding woods and ergo less visible from the bridge etc when those trees were without their leaves and he'd have a bit more privacy to 'work'. But certainly didn't make the choice because "Odinism/heathenism/ritual cult/place of sacrifice/place of framing others etc IMO.

Agree. I am of the opinion he staked the place out. Knew it was hard to see and get to. Even may have known it would shield against noises traveling and weak or spotty cell reception.
I am also of the opinion that he already had the crime scene ready to some degree for his victims. It’s horrifying but I believe he took photos or video which would explain why the girls were placed close together. It also would explain why it was done in the woods during the day. Natural lighting and the setting can’t be linked back to the perpetrator.
Of course this is all my opinion based on my theory of events.
May justice come soon for Abby and Libby.

 

[Megnut]

It (the location) was important enough, to bring their (precious) bodies to it.

Why?

Huge risk for cross transfer of blood and DNA. So why?

What about that spot mattered to him?

Was it visible from another important point? So he could look right at it and no one would know?

He chose that spot.

JMO

 

[TTF14]

From the article linked by TTF in their post:
“Almost immediately after the killings, Libby’s grandmother, Becky Patty, told investigators that the father of Abby’s boyfriend practiced Odinism, a Nordic pagan religion.”

I added the maybe before the photo was released, as my own speculation and possibility.

Maybe she was asked about known religious backgrounds of everyone. I personally did a deposition recently where I was asked questions of all sorts that seemed unusual.

https://fox59.com/news/judge-considers-motion-to-dismiss-charges-and-sanction-prosecutor-in-delphi-case/

I'm not casting shade on the grandmother, but I would be more concerned about people who tipped in BH within the first few days without seeing any photos of the crime scene. I mean, why in the world would their brains go to Heathenism/Paganism/Norse religions unless you had knowledge of the crime scene? Consider this my opinion only, that LE received multiple tips about BH within the first few days, because I can't find the link at the moment where that was said. So, my opinion only. Only my opinion. A big old loud MOOOOOO until I can find the link!

IMO MOOOOOOOOOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

I'm not casting shade on the grandmother, but I would be more concerned about people who tipped in BH within the first few days without seeing any photos of the crime scene. I mean, why in the world would their brains go to Heathenism/Paganism/Norse religions unless you had knowledge of the crime scene? Consider this my opinion only, that LE received multiple tips about BH within the first few days, because I can't find the link at the moment where that was said. So, my opinion only. Only my opinion. A big old loud MOOOOOO until I can find the link!

IMO MOOOOOOOOOO

I get it. The crime scene looked possibly like a ritual. LE was quick to investigate, and determined it was (poorly) staged as such. BH was in the POI mix, as were many, many through the years. Most importantly, BH was nowhere near the crime scene during the murders.

I get that defense would like to move the timeline to include BH or his cohorts, and get RA off of the bridge. Moving the timeline does not work for me and won’t work for a jury.

Nick M will nail down the timeline and nail RA right to it.

All - IMO

jmo

 

[TTF14]

I get that defense would like to move the timeline to include BH or his cohorts, and get RA off of the bridge. Moving the timeline does not work for me and won’t work for a jury.

Nick M will nail down the timeline and nail RA right to it.

We agree that this whole case will hinge on a timeline that is able to be proven!

JMO MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

We agree that this whole case will hinge on a timeline that is able to be proven!

JMO MOO

Also identifying RA as the man on the bridge. Timeline and identity will be key. Confessions may be admitted. The bullet may help, I’m just not a major fan. If there’s additional (yet unknown) evidence like DNA or digital, or a close family member he told and will testify - RA is done.

jmo

 

[TTF14]

Also identifying RA as the man on the bridge. Timeline and identity will be key. Confessions may be admitted. The bullet may help, I’m just not a major fan. If there’s additional (yet unknown) evidence like DNA or digital, or a close family member he told and will testify - RA is done.

jmo

Appreciate your perspective, but for me, it's only the timeline. But I'm also eager to hear the ballistics experts.

IMO MOO

 

[shonyakay]

It (the location) was important enough, to bring their (precious) bodies to it.

Why?

Huge risk for cross transfer of blood and DNA. So why?

What about that spot mattered to him?

Was it visible from another important point? So he could look right at it and no one would know?

He chose that spot.

JMO

Do you think it's possible the girls ran across the creek to get away from BG and that is the area where they just ended up?

Where can I find the info that Abby was moved?

I do understand that Libby was dragged to the point she was found. (7 feet from the voluminous pools of her blood. Sorry for the graphic nature of that description.)

 

[shonyakay]

I'm not casting shade on the grandmother, but I would be more concerned about people who tipped in BH within the first few days without seeing any photos of the crime scene. I mean, why in the world would their brains go to Heathenism/Paganism/Norse religions unless you had knowledge of the crime scene? Consider this my opinion only, that LE received multiple tips about BH within the first few days, because I can't find the link at the moment where that was said. So, my opinion only. Only my opinion. A big old loud MOOOOOO until I can find the link!

IMO MOOOOOOOOOO

When we're "signatures" first mentioned in regards to the crime scene? That could possibly sound cultish to some people who knew BH was involved in an unusual religion imo.

 

[shonyakay]

I don’t know if someone was trying to frame that particular Odinist, but it is very disturbing to see the pic that was captured from this particular Odin worshipper’s FB post (by the guy in Georgia, RB) that showed what appeared to be a young woman laid out intertwined in what I would call a “rune.” Totally bizarre. It gave me the creeps. The girl actually looks dead. Whether she was merely posed to look dead, I don’t know. What I do know is it makes me wonder why anyone would post such a picture. JMHO.

I will say that the Pic is odd. Doesn't BH deny that he posted that though? Can it be proven he did?

 

[Yemelyan]

When we're "signatures" first mentioned in regards to the crime scene? That could possibly sound cultish to some people who knew BH was involved in an unusual religion imo.

I think the first time the word "signatures" was used was in summer of 2020, in an interview former Carroll County prosecutor Robert Ives gave to HLN's podcast "Down the Hill." You can read a transcript of this part of the podcast here: Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Edit - I should say, this is the first time I think we "the public" learned about it. What family members might have been told or what locals knew is something different...

 

[shonyakay]

Warning graphic: My understanding in regards to the testimony at the hearing is that Abby's blood was found in her hair, soaked on the clothing in the area of her neck and pooled behind her neck area on the ground. This leads me to believe that Abby was injured where she was discovered. Unlike Libby whose blood tells a horrifying story that she was mobile at the time of her injuries.

 

[statt#1]

I'm of the opinion RA knew the lay of that ground like it was his own. I think he'd been all over those woods, that bottom land, along the creek....probably hunting it, fishing, etc. I don't find it in any way curious that the CS is where it is.

I'd even wager there's a good chance that the woods had several established trails down in that bottom land, where folks would reach the creek from the bridge. I imagine all sorts of activity in that area over the years....smokin' weed, drinkin', campin' overnight, fishing, hunting, etc.

I've studied photos of the area, of the crime scene, video's of the cemetery, the old quarry there on the hill, the path down the hill from that side....etc. etc. It's a typical wooded area along a stream, nothing more, nothing less.

Depressions aren't unusual in those areas, the course of the stream changes over years, and/or flooding carves out channels here and there, washout from high water, all sorts of stuff.

I'd expect testimony involving the exact path the girls and the killer took from the end of the bridge to the crime scene, very likely including evidence of movement through the woods, disturbed ground, possible foot prints, maybe even photo proof of exactly where they crossed the creek and where they went up the bank on the other side. It really wouldn't be terribly difficult to track/discover where that happened. I wouldn't be surprised to see boot/shoe prints brought in to testimony.

I think BG/RA marched them down the hill, across the driveway, down another small hill, across an already established trail to the creeks edge, across the creek at a shallow point, up the other side, a short distance thereafter, all familiar territory to him, and murdered them right there. I see no evidence of any sinister planning for a ritualistic murder in broad daylight by either BG/RA or anyone else for that matter. Simple. Keepin' it simple here.

He then in haste tried to cover 'em up, and fled up the hill using the woods as detection protection, ultimately out on to the road, jumped in his car and drove away.

Sure, I see the timeline as being important, but I also think a whole host of other evidence will be presented, some unknown to the public at this time.

 

[iamshadow21]

Warning graphic: My understanding in regards to the testimony at the hearing is that Abby's blood was found in her hair, soaked on the clothing in the area of her neck and pooled behind her neck area on the ground. This leads me to believe that Abby was injured where she was discovered. Unlike Libby whose blood tells a horrifying story that she was mobile at the time of her injuries.

The lack of blood on Abby's hands bothers me.

If she was conscious, all I can think is that she was on her back, and the attacker was on top of her, kneeling on her arms.

Otherwise, why would she just lie there? Why wouldn't she grab at the knife? Or attempt to hold the wound?

So I just have this image in my head of her attacker kneeling on her arms, getting off on watching her slowly bleed out, and that is more horrifying to me than Libby dying quickly, fighting to get away.

MOO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I don’t know if someone was trying to frame that particular Odinist, but it is very disturbing to see the pic that was captured from this particular Odin worshipper’s FB post (by the guy in Georgia, RB) that showed what appeared to be a young woman laid out intertwined in what I would call a “rune.” Totally bizarre. It gave me the creeps. The girl actually looks dead. Whether she was merely posed to look dead, I don’t know. What I do know is it makes me wonder why anyone would post such a picture. JMHO.

Do we even know he was practicing Odinism in 2012 when this alleged picture was posted? IMO a man posting a picture of a seemingly deceased woman on social media would raise some suspicion. With or without the placement of supposed "rune". Especially since he had some acquaintance with one of the victims.
But if it was from indeed before he was practicing Odinism he may have not even known it was a "rune" and either way if its from 5 years before the crime, I just have a hard time making the connection. Would have tied it up real nicely for LE but he can't be placed in or around the crime scene for the 13th or 14th. Basically, IMO there's no opportunity or means and the motive is shaky- seems like the investigation came to the same conclusion.
Now I do wonder if they found similar type of art or interest in these type of images in RA's electronic devices or search history.
All My opinion