Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #194

[girlhasnoname]

In no world is solitary confinement in a maximum security state prison better for a defendants mental health or safety than a solitary cell in a county jail.

So there’s that.

In your opinion unless you are a verified mental health expert? The closest jails did not offer segregated cells or mental health services at the time RA was transferred to Westville IIRC. Cass County just recently upgraded their jail and began offering limited MH services.

RA was not in solitary confinement in Westville or Washburn, he was held in the segregation units. There were other people in the group of pod like cells, he wasn't sitting in a dark hole alone somewhere and did have the usual 2 person cell to himself. He was seen by MH professionals and prison staff daily, had rec time, had a tablet to browse and make calls to his family.

The prison actually cleared the entire cafeteria area for RA to have a face to face visit with his wife. Not done for anyone else.

There's that to consider.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

Highlighted by me for focus.
Your comment made me curious. Have you ever seen any statistics for Two Indiana teens abducted and then murdered in the woods?

I posted victim singular.

Agreed 2 victims is unusual - but not unheard of. It happened recently in germany on a tourist trail. One victim raped. One murdered.

US man jailed for Neuschwanstein Castle rape and murder

Man identified by German court as Troy B attacked two American women near tourist attraction in June

www.theguardian.com

 

[Vern]

I really hope we get a Clear picture on why he targeted Libby.

Even when you consider he dragged Libby and Carried Abby. He dressed Abby but left Libby nude. He nearly decapitated Libby and she had to literally fight for her life. Abby it seems was unconscious when the fatal wound was inflicted.

He apologized for Killing Abby as well didn’t he in a confession?!

It’s all very strange. IMO MOO

IMO, I believe that the motive will turn out to be SA.

Whether actually completed or not. SA is in there somewhere just based upon the fact that both girls were undressed at some point in time after their abduction (which in itself lends to a sexual motive in the crime) with Abby reclothing prior to her own murder. IMO, I also believe that Libby was the intended target, but her mobility and flight from him which led to him having to slash at her throat 3 separate times simply took that 'opportunity to complete' away from him.

Then again, IMO, just the fact that they were unclothed lends to a sexual nexus to this crime and his idea of 'completion' may have nothing to do with an actual physical act of SA.

All MOO of course.

 

[girlhasnoname]

iamshadow21 said:
two teens stripping at gunpoint in the woods at the command of a strange man




Wasn’t Libby found unclothed and Abby was re-dressed in some of Libby’s clothing?

I don’t think anyone believes they willingly stripped themselves for some strange man on the bridge. It seems abundantly clear that they were forced to do so in fear of their lives.

Even had they been undressed post-mortem, that seems to me to be something sexually gratifying for their murderer.

IMO

No matter how or when the girls were abducted from the bridge and forced to undress, redress, etc at some point is SA.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I posted victim singular.

Agreed 2 victims is unusual - but not unheard of. It happened recently in germany on a tourist trail. One victim raped. One murdered.

US man jailed for Neuschwanstein Castle rape and murder

Man identified by German court as Troy B attacked two American women near tourist attraction in June

www.theguardian.com

Yes, well... that's in Germany. I'm curious about Indiana.
I have the Laurel Mitchell murder; she was a teen who was abducted by 2 men at night and found later drowned. That thread is here.

I've never seen stats and that's why I asked if you had.

 

[Vern]

I posted victim singular.

Agreed 2 victims is unusual - but not unheard of. It happened recently in germany on a tourist trail. One victim raped. One murdered.

US man jailed for Neuschwanstein Castle rape and murder

Man identified by German court as Troy B attacked two American women near tourist attraction in June

www.theguardian.com

Indeed. Closer to home: also Lyric and Elizabeth, the Lyons sisters, the Groens, also the case where the two girls were abducted and one was SAd and murdered while the other managed to escape and the perp ended up comitting suicide ... just off the top of my head.

A lot more of those types of cases to recall and reference than "ritualistic sacrificial murders by an Odinistic Cult (or staged to look like an Odinistic sacrifice)" in the state of Indiana ... or anywhere else for that matter.

I get ZERO returns for a search of "Odinist Cult Murders" from google ... other than Abby & Libby's case (which was not of this classification either IMO).

 

[Vern]

I snipped your comment

This is an excellent example of just one little piece of evidence/testimony that, well, for me, is in the realm of stuff I don't even know I don't know There will be all sorts of evidence and testimony regarding a whole bunch of stuff my opinion states we haven't even conceived of.....one of my favorite possibilities being....matching shoe prints.

I agree. And to note they did seize footwear according to the search warrant return. The evidence presented at trial will tell the tale.

IMO. MOOO. IMHO.

 

[shonyakay]

bbm
Did LE still think of abduction of one or two girls to an outdoor building (later brought back to the crime scene on RL-land)?

They searched for outdoor buildings in RL's warrant too, IIRC.

Maybe just being thorough?

 

[girlhasnoname]

The WANE article on Juror Questionnaire pages 1-7 nothing is gone from the internet forever:

Juror questionnaire in Delphi homicide case ‘unconventional’ says legal expert.pdf

MOO

 

[shonyakay]

IMO
The girls had two other escape routes; they could have run on down the path to the houses at the end or they could have run down the road that goes under the bridge. So one would wonder at what point did the girls have a chance to run.

If he did have a gun on them, it's understandable why they didn't flee when he came up on them.

The hill from the end of the bridge looks to be the most difficult so that may have been a good place for them to make a break but why not flee to the house at the end of the road?

Did he just let the girls walk freely in front of him or did he have physical control over one?

In the I.D. program I linked here a couple of days ago....
Anna stated Libby stated, "Well the path ends here, we can't go any further." The direction their bodies were found was to the right and to the east of where Libby would have been when she captured BG video correct? Does the asphalt trail in that same direction just end in woods?

 

[mrjitty]

Indeed. Closer to home: also Lyric and Elizabeth, the Lyons sisters, the Groens, also the case where the two girls were abducted and one was SAd and murdered while the other managed to escape and the perp ended up comitting suicide ... just off the top of my head.

A lot more of those types of cases to recall and reference than "ritualistic sacrificial murders by an Odinistic Cult (or staged to look like an Odinistic sacrifice)" in the state of Indiana ... or anywhere else for that matter.

I get ZERO returns for a search of "Odinist Cult Murders" from google ... other than Abby & Libby's case (which was not of this classification either IMO).

Thanks for the info.

These types of attacks tend to have 2 or 3 crime scenes - see Resslers original profiling work for the FBI

Abduction is from somewhere the victim is vulnerable, so this kind of isolated trail location is not uncommon - also see parks even in urban environments. The victim is taken somewhere more secluded (the second crime scene). In this case the attacker is on foot - so it is not far away.

The body is then sometimes dumped somewhere else (to conceal the 2nd location) or hidden to conceal forensics.

Alternatively, as in this case, the body is not 'dumped' to a 3rd location e.g. because the attacker is on foot, and there is no need to conceal the location

My belief is the attack was opportunistic, and the attacker did not want two victims - but this was a chance that he took.

What we don't know, is if Bridge Guy has attacked women before - it might well be the case IMO

https://www.amazon.de/Whoever-Fights-Monsters-Tracking-Classics/dp/0312950446

 

[FromGermany1]

They searched for outdoor buildings in RL's warrant too, IIRC.

Maybe just being thorough?

There (in the outdoor buildings) could have been found evidence or could have been found a location, where a perp had prepared a "studio" for filming/torturing his victims. Well done, if they searched for it. IMO
PS: If I had not viewed a movie on TV, which showed such a studio within a crime movie, I wouldn't have thought of it. In the movie the mysterious shed was right beside the residential building, but forbidden for the family to enter.

 

[shonyakay]

Indeed. Closer to home: also Lyric and Elizabeth, the Lyons sisters, the Groens, also the case where the two girls were abducted and one was SAd and murdered while the other managed to escape and the perp ended up comitting suicide ... just off the top of my head.

A lot more of those types of cases to recall and reference than "ritualistic sacrificial murders by an Odinistic Cult (or staged to look like an Odinistic sacrifice)" in the state of Indiana ... or anywhere else for that matter.

I get ZERO returns for a search of "Odinist Cult Murders" from google ... other than Abby & Libby's case (which was not of this classification either IMO).

Also the case of two teen girls (friends) who were abducted. One girl was raped. Both were found shot dead in the SA'd teen's car trunk. There was a 20/20 special on this case recently. Their names escape me atm unfortunately. A pastor years later was convicted of those atrocious crimes.

 

[Vern]

Also the case of two teen girls (friends) who were abducted. One girl was raped. Both were found shot dead in the SA'd teen's car trunk. There was a 20/20 special on this case recently. Their names escape me atm unfortunately. A pastor years later was convicted of those atrocious crimes.

Yes. J.B. Beasley and Tracie Hawlett.

Certainly more common than the zero references for "Odinist Cult Murders" that I can find - even in singular victims.

I am of the opinion though that Libby was the specific target and that Abby being present was either unexpected or irrelevant to him, but that he took his chances and went through with it anyway despite there being two girls present.

 

[AugustWest]

No, I mean legally, they need other evidence besides the confessions for a case. They cannot hinge the trial solely on the confessions, they need other evidence to support it. They cannot go to trial and not present other evidence.

MOO

Corpus delicti is satisfied simply by the presence of two deceased individuals who did not take their own lives.

See: Brown v. State, 239 Ind. 184 | Casetext Search + Citator.

The independent evidence necessary to establish the corpus delicti must be of such a character that reasonable inferences may be drawn to support a conclusion that a crime of the nature and character charged has been committed by someone.

ETA: *or died by natural causes. The girls' wounds would indicate homicide.

 

[FrostedGlass]

In the I.D. program I linked here a couple of days ago....
Anna stated Libby stated, "Well the path ends here, we can't go any further." The direction their bodies were found was to the right and to the east of where Libby would have been when she captured BG video correct? Does the asphalt trail in that same direction just end in woods?

Yes, to the right and east is correct.

The abandoned railroad bed continues past the south end of the bridge, leading to the houses near the trail. We assume the girls were standing at the end of the bridge when they said the trail ends here. Except it doesn't.
MOO

 

[katydid23]

I really hope we get a Clear picture on why he targeted Libby.

Even when you consider he dragged Libby and Carried Abby. He dressed Abby but left Libby nude. He nearly decapitated Libby and she had to literally fight for her life. Abby it seems was unconscious when the fatal wound was inflicted.

He apologized for Killing Abby as well didn’t he in a confession?!

It’s all very strange. IMO MOO

Maybe he was very angry at someone who resembled Libby and she triggered him?

 

[katydid23]

Highlighted by me for focus.
Your comment made me curious. Have you ever seen any statistics for Two Indiana teens abducted and then murdered in the woods?

I don't know the statistics, but there are similar crimes.

The pain of 2 Iowa girls' killings remains, but resolve in Evansdale only grows

Lyric and Elizabeth were abducted and slain five years ago. For relatives, police and the rest of the community, the trauma is still fresh.

www.desmoinesregister.com

 

[katydid23]

IMO
The girls had two other escape routes; they could have run on down the path to the houses at the end or they could have run down the road that goes under the bridge. So one would wonder at what point did the girls have a chance to run.

If he did have a gun on them, it's understandable why they didn't flee when he came up on them.

The hill from the end of the bridge looks to be the most difficult so that may have been a good place for them to make a break but why not flee to the house at the end of the road?

Did he just let the girls walk freely in front of him or did he have physical control over one?

All he had to do was hold on tight to Abby and point the gun up towards her head---that would insure that Libby wouldn't try to run at that time. He probably assured them that he was going to let them go as long as they cooperated.

They were BABIES---do we really expect that they could escape a grown man with a gun and a knife and an evil heart?

 

[shonyakay]

Yes, to the right and east is correct.

The abandoned railroad bed continues past the south end of the bridge, leading to the houses near the trail. We assume the girls were standing at the end of the bridge when they said the trail ends here. Except it doesn't.
MOO

I had heard reference to the girls talking about which way they should go i.e. something about two ways when BG was approaching. - Source Gray Hughes/LG's cellphone

However, I have never heard that particular statement that Anna says Libby made about the trail having ended and they can't go any further. I was just wondering if this was stated by Libby at the end of that asphalt trail to the right of the bridge. Hence why I was asking about if that particular trail just ends in woods.

You may be correct though, the girls may have been referring to the bridge at that point.