Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #194

[shonyakay]

What is the I.D. program, and what is the link?

Investigation Discovery

https://www.investigationdiscovery.com/video/still-a-mystery-investigation-discovery/down-the-hill

 

[AugustWest]

8/28/2024

Order Issued The Court, having reviewed the Motion to Quash Subpoena filed by Jessica Fidler, M.D., on August 26, 2024, now finds that the Motion is well founded in law and the Indiana Trial Rules and grants the Motion to Quash Subpoena. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 08/28/2024

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

 

[Vern]

Thank you for posting this map; it's one I've been looking for. I was thinking it was one GH put out and the drop off time of 1:35 was of special interest to me.

Same google zoom link of area from yesterday too.

 

[tlcya]

JMO but I don’t think the Judge is going to open the door allowing a cultish/religion/satanist theory to enter, especially one that lacks evidence and plays on people’s fears.

This article was published more than 20 years ago, since then nothing has changed.

MOO

CNN.com - Old black magic: Does Scott Peterson have a dated defense strategy? - Jun. 16, 2003

“Interest in satanic allegations had all but died off before the Peterson case, said Lanning, now retired from the FBI. At the height of the satanic panic, he fielded two calls a day asking advice. These days, he gets about two calls a year.

He is skeptical when people talk about satanic "holidays," signs and rituals. Since no cult killing by satanists has even been documented by police, how can anyone profess expertise, he asks.“

the red portion is something I touched on yesterday. How exactly does one become an expert in something there is no documented (in the US) proof of ever having happened? That is what I hope the State asks Perlmutter IF she is even allowed to testify at trial.

ETA and before someone says "but he is talking specifically about Satanic killings" the same question would still apply to Perlmutter. Can she show anyone one single documented case of Odinist/heathen/Asatru ritual killings? Just one? I am very confident she cannot.

 

[susiQ]

Whether these murders were an actual ritual sacrifice OR it was made to look that way to implicate others, one cannot discount the testimony of certain individuals that came forward to LE to provide “tips” LE themselves kept asking for and then proceeded to ignore. It’s mind boggling imo.

Was AH lying when she repeated what BH said to her, throwing his former friend PW under the bus and implicating him in the murders? Is PW lying when he denies BH’s narrative and then gives his own account of why he fell out with his buddy Vinlander/Asatru worshipper? BH was attending church and PW said you couldn’t be in both camps. Is TH lying when she tells LE that JM borrowed her car on or around Feb 13th to visit his Vinlander (white supremest) “brothers” in Delphi or is JM lying when he said he’s never been to Delphi in his life? Not to mention that TH recorded 3 conversations from JM’s phone where in two of them he was looking for people they could harm or kill? Was TH fabricating when she said, JM & BH are two of the most violent men she has ever known? Of course this is her “opinion” but may well be based in fact. Was EF lying when he identified himself as having been on a bridge where two girls were murdered, and AW was a troublemaker, he spit on her and gave her horns? You know there’s a German saying that goes like this, “Kinder und Zurueckgebliebenen (Narren) sagen die Wahrheit.” Loosely translated, “Children and the developmentally delayed tell the truth.” While we all know children will lie at times to conceal, it is less so with the cognitively handicapped. I believe EF was telling the truth about where he was and why. Personally, I feel he was duped into believing he was being “initiated” into the Vinlander “brotherhood.” TH spoke of “blood in and blood out” meaning acceptance into the secret group. FM pg 19 MOO. How sad that he got mixed up (likely early in his life) with people like JM and RAbr.

Also the talk of ceremonial knives, how RA had a knife, while BH posts pics of brass knuckles and his ceremonial knife! You can’t make this stuff up, yet so many will discount all this “circumstantial evidence” yet champion that RA can indeed be convicted on the flimsy circumstantial evidence they have on him. Geez Louise. The problem here is, there’s much more convincing circumstantial evidence pointing to third party actors than RA. If JG denies SODDI defense this will most assuredly be appealed.

RI in one of his interviews stated he couldn’t believe that someone who committed such a crime would not have to tell someone. Well, guess what RI? He did, to his sisters, they came forward and you didn’t listen! Swept it under a carpet they did. That’s one dirty carpet, imho. Since I can’t link the short clip of RI saying this because it is within an unapproved source’s video, I will MOO, MOO, MOO on that.

eta: all moo, naturally!

 

[shonyakay]

The comment above, "the totality of the evidence" is what I wanted to focus on in this post, as it is THAT evidence that, very early on, led investigators to conclude BG was their primary suspect. I believe they knew at that time, the man on the bridge, was the same man that murdered the girls at the crime scene. Question is, how'd they know that?

Police: Man in photos now 'main suspect' in 2 girls' deaths

DELPHI, Ind. (AP) - A man photographed walking along a northern Indiana trail system around the time two teenage girls later found slain were dropped off by...

www.dailymail.co.uk

IMO it was SC's and BB's similar clothing descriptions of BG. BB placing him on the bridge right before the girls arrived and SC placing him on 300 N walking away from the area of the bridge (muddy, bloody, and disheveled) right after the girls went "missing".

IIRC in the PC it stated SC and BB identified the video of BG as the man they had seen.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Same google zoom link of area from yesterday too.

Google Earth view of the south end of the bridge. The white "ribbon" on the left is the private drive. If you expand the image, you can see a path beginning at the end of the bridge and going toward the 2 properties. That's the abandoned rr that you mentioned. RR are set upon a deep base of rocks called ballast. Those rocks are generally left behind when the rails and ties are removed.

Understanding The Railroad Track Ballast - R&S Track, Inc.

Have you ever wondered why railroad tracks have layers of crushed rocks underneath them? Learn more about the railroad track ballast.

rstrackinc.com

 

[Vern]

Whether these murders were an actual ritual sacrifice OR it was made to look that way to implicate others, one cannot discount the testimony of certain individuals that came forward to LE to provide “tips” LE themselves kept asking for and then proceeded to ignore. It’s mind boggling imo.

Was AH lying when she repeated what BH said to her, throwing his former friend PW under the bus and implicating him in the murders? Is PW lying when he denies BH’s narrative and then gives his own account of why he fell out with his buddy Vinlander/Asatru worshipper? BH was attending church and PW said you couldn’t be in both camps. Is TH lying when she tells LE that JM borrowed her car on or around Feb 13th to visit his Vinlander (white supremest) “brothers” in Delphi or is JM lying when he said he’s never been to Delphi in his life? Not to mention that TH recorded 3 conversations from JM’s phone where in two of them he was looking for people they could harm or kill? Was TH fabricating when she said, JM & BH are two of the most violent men she has ever known? Of course this is her “opinion” but may well be based in fact. Was EF lying when he identified himself as having been on a bridge where two girls were murdered, and AW was a troublemaker, he spit on her and gave her horns? You know there’s a German saying that goes like this, “Kinder und Zurueckgebliebenen (Narren) sagen die Wahrheit.” Loosely translated, “Children and the developmentally delayed tell the truth.” While we all know children will lie at times to conceal, it is less so with the cognitively handicapped. I believe EF was telling the truth about where he was and why. Personally, I feel he was duped into believing he was being “initiated” into the Vinlander “brotherhood.” TH spoke of “blood in and blood out” meaning acceptance into the secret group. FM pg 19 MOO. How sad that he got mixed up (likely early in his life) with people like JM and RAbr.

Also the talk of ceremonial knives, how RA had a knife, while BH posts pics of brass knuckles and his ceremonial knife! You can’t make this stuff up, yet so many will discount all this “circumstantial evidence” yet champion that RA can indeed be convicted on the flimsy circumstantial evidence they have on him. Geez Louise. The problem here is, there’s much more convincing circumstantial evidence pointing to third party actors than RA. If JG denies SODDI defense this will most assuredly be appealed.

RI in one of his interviews stated he couldn’t believe that someone who committed such a crime would not have to tell someone. Well, guess what RI? He did, to his sisters, they came forward and you didn’t listen! Swept it under a carpet they did. That’s one dirty carpet, imho. Since I can’t link the short clip of RI saying this because it is within an unapproved source’s video, I will MOO, MOO, MOO on that.

That's all covered here in this link, including those you mention who've been cleared and who've been determined are not POIs. Why do they keep getting brought up?

Richard Allen gets approval to transfer out of maximum security prison ahead of Delphi murders trial

A third day of pre-trial hearings in the Delphi murders case ended with a win for defendant Richard Allen — he will now be detained in a county jail.

www.wthr.com

And, at the end of the day this is what we are left with in the testimony under oath by the LE that investigated those other guys that did did not do it.

Former Rushville Police officer Todd Click, who assisted in the Delphi murders investigation, testified he investigated several of the men that defense attorneys are now interested in, adding that he was “shocked and confused” when the prosecutor charged Allen rather than someone with ties to Odinism.
But during cross examination, all of the officers who testified about the alternate suspects admitted they found no evidence placing those individuals in Delphi or at the scene of the murders when Williams and German were killed.
“There was no direct evidence,” Click said during cross examination.
That lack of evidence might sway Judge Gull to grant McLeland’s motion to prohibit testimony about the defense team’s six Odinism-related alternate perpetrators, which would be a significant blow to Allen and his defense team.

No evidence. No cult of Odin Ritual murders. The people you've mentionned above could not be, and were not able to be placed in Delphi on 13 February 2017 by the very guys that investigated that angle. Let alone Delphi, they could not be placed on the MHB Trail, the Bridge or remotely connected to this horrific crime via any other means.

It's my opinion, but I'm basing it on actual testimony that was given under oath and which has been covered extensively by numerous podcasters, media etc.

 

[tlcya]

It is MOO that the murders were not ritual killings NOR were they staged to appear to be ritual killings.

Mass hysteria is a thing. People having personal grudges against others is a thing. It is MOO that those two factors are at play in this case and have been since the early days. I blame social media, reddit, etc for this instance of that phenomenon.

Hampstead Hoax - Wikipedia

Satanic panic - Wikipedia

McMartin preschool trial - Wikipedia

Fall River murders - Wikipedia.

 

[shonyakay]

11:48 mm

At 11:56 in the video and "down the hill" was the path I was asking about in earlier posts.

If this really does go to trial, I wonder if the jury will be able to take a trip out there to see the area for themselves.

 

[susiQ]

IMO it was SC's and BB's similar clothing descriptions of BG. BB placing him on the bridge right before the girls arrived and SC placing him on 300 N walking away from the area of the bridge (muddy, bloody, and disheveled) right after the girls went "missing".

IIRC in the PC it stated SC and BB identified the video of BG as the man they had seen.

Unfortunately, BB and SC’s descriptions in no way align. Two different men. SC reported seeing a muddy man (not bloody) wearing a tan jacket (not blue). This is part of the discovery. FM pg 115,116. Whatever one thinks of the FM, one cannot deny a taped interview that will likely come into evidence at trial. Someone lied on the PCA and this will be exposed. JMHO

 

[susiQ]

That's all covered here in this link, including those you mention who've been cleared and who've been determined are not POIs. Why do they keep getting brought up?

Richard Allen gets approval to transfer out of maximum security prison ahead of Delphi murders trial

A third day of pre-trial hearings in the Delphi murders case ended with a win for defendant Richard Allen — he will now be detained in a county jail.

www.wthr.com

And, at the end of the day this is what we are left with in the testimony under oath by the LE that investigated those other guys that did did not do it.



No evidence. No cult of Odin Ritual murders. The people you've mentionned above could not be, and were not able to be placed in Delphi on 13 February 2017 by the very guys that investigated that angle. Let alone Delphi, they could not be placed on the MHB Trail, the Bridge or remotely connected to this horrific crime via any other means.

It's my opinion, but I'm basing it on actual testimony that was given under oath and which has been covered extensively by numerous podcasters, media etc.

MOO They couldn’t be placed there because the investigation of those perps was shut down prematurely. One agency pitted against another. Just because UC decided to shut down C, F, & M does not prove these people are innocent. The investigation was in no way finished when they ruled them “cleared.” JMO

I doubt we’ll ever agree on this so let’s just leave it at that.

 

[Angelcat13]

My question exactly! If there was no issue with the thing, then it wouldn't have been removed, right? I'd speculate the court asked them to remove it. And I do think it would be beneficial to know who exactly mailed it to the 600? ..... or is that already known?

Edit....it's entirely possible the outfit was totally duped, but even and if so, I'd LOVE to know who did that

I typed it, therefore, it's my opinion.

It wouldn't be the first time a news station/paper has been duped into believing something was real and ran with the story before finding out it was a complete fake. Remember when Fox affiliate KTVU-TV reported ON AIR the "names" of the pilots on Asiana Flight 214 that crashed at San Francisco International Airport in 2013?

Apologies after on-air blunder over Asiana pilots’ names

The National Transportation Safety Board says an intern mistakenly confirmed to a TV station racially offensive fake names for the pilots of the Asiana flight that crashed in San Francisco. NBC’s Michelle Franzen reports.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[shonyakay]

Something like this as evidence should put weight to the theory the girls and killer walked down the hill, across the water, and were murdered where they were found.

Murdered by a cold, cold, evil, angry killer.

Agreed. Also the blood evidence. You could also argue the abrupt ending to the movement of Libby's phone at either 2:27 p.m. or 2:37 p.m. I can't remember exactly which time was testified to at the moment.

 

[justtrish]

Unfortunately, BB and SC’s descriptions in no way align. Two different men. SC reported seeing a muddy man (not bloody) wearing a tan jacket (not blue). This is part of the discovery. FM pg 115,116. Whatever one thinks of the FM, one cannot deny a taped interview that will likely come into evidence at trial. Someone lied on the PCA and this will be exposed. JMHO

I'd say the killer was likely also muddy after going into the water and then murdering 2 girls in the wooded dirty area. I do think moving around wet on a dirty ground would get him muddy. So even if the witness said he looked muddy.. maybe LE said could it have been blood and she says it could have been yes. I guess I just don't get the nit picking of this without having the full transcript of her interview or statements, we don't know what was or wasn't mentioned about blood. The defense tells us only what they want to so their client comes out in the best possible light and LE come out in the worst possible light. Doesn't mean it was a lie on either side, just means they picked what they wanted to say from the interviews.

Also he had a hoodie that was light colored under his blue jacketed so even seeing a man muddy and in a tan jacket could be RA walking the road muddy with his tan hoodie now being his outer garment. All MOO of course.

 

[FrostedGlass]

At 11:56 in the video and "down the hill" was the path I was asking about in earlier posts.

If this really does go to trial, I wonder if the jury will be able to take a trip out there to see the area for themselves.

Yes, thank you. That's the path I was referring to and people are claiming it isn't there. I just didn't have a link to it. IMO, if the girls would have been able to make a break at that point, I think they would have gone on down that path.

 

[shonyakay]

I read a quote on here somewhere that Libby fought back...

RA looked like he had been in a fight and didn't Libby have defensive wounds on her hands? I think it's just an assumption based on known facts so far.

 

[layer]

I had heard reference to the girls talking about which way they should go i.e. something about two ways when BG was approaching. - Source Gray Hughes/LG's cellphone

However, I have never heard that particular statement that Anna says Libby made about the trail having ended and they can't go any further. I was just wondering if this was stated by Libby at the end of that asphalt trail to the right of the bridge. Hence why I was asking about if that particular trail just ends in woods.

You may be correct though, the girls may have been referring to the bridge at that point.

Unless I'm mistaken, the public trail ends at the north side of the bridge. The bridge and everything beyond are private property.

 

[AugustWest]

I'd say the killer was likely also muddy after going into the water and then murdering 2 girls in the wooded dirty area. I do think moving around wet on a dirty ground would get him muddy. So even if the witness said he looked muddy.. maybe LE said could it have been blood and she says it could have been yes. I guess I just don't get the nit picking of this without having the full transcript of her interview or statements, we don't know what was or wasn't mentioned about blood. The defense tells us only what they want to so their client comes out in the best possible light and LE come out in the worst possible light. Doesn't mean it was a lie on either side, just means they picked what they wanted to say from the interviews.

Also he had a hoodie that was light colored under his blue jacketed so even seeing a man muddy and in a tan jacket could be RA walking the road muddy with his tan hoodie now being his outer garment. All MOO of course.

The problem with this is that an affidavit, which is what a PCA is, should be a statement of absolute fact, to the best of one's knowledge.

affidavit

www.law.cornell.edu

LE saying "it could have been blood" isn't a fact. "Could have been yes" is not a fact. Misrepresenting facts in an affidavit is thus problematic, because that is the basis for the charges. Which led to RA being held in a prison for over a year. Nitpicking is kinda important when you are depriving someone of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[shonyakay]

I forget items too at times, but IMO a personal item, yours or mine, like lip balm is not the same as a box cutter.

We own our personal items and may need them at any time.

A box-cutter is RA’s work-related item. It should never have been in his pocket or been removed from the store. It’s not an insignificant item and he could’ve cut himself accidentally carrying it “forgetfully” in his pocket. Box cutters are what the 9/11 hijackers used and an innocent person should be wary of having it on his person.

Even as a decades long teacher, I and my colleagues were always warned that all work-related items were not for us to take with us. Even a stick of chalk.

JMO and experience.

I wonder what the policy was for the box cutters at RA's work place. For example, I work at an Amazon Fullfillment center and we are allowed to take our box cutters to and from work.