Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #194

[Vern]

Thank you for posting this map; it's one I've been looking for. I was thinking it was one GH put out and the drop off time of 1:35 was of special interest to me.

Same google zoom link of area from yesterday too.

 

[tlcya]

JMO but I don’t think the Judge is going to open the door allowing a cultish/religion/satanist theory to enter, especially one that lacks evidence and plays on people’s fears.

This article was published more than 20 years ago, since then nothing has changed.

MOO

CNN.com - Old black magic: Does Scott Peterson have a dated defense strategy? - Jun. 16, 2003

“Interest in satanic allegations had all but died off before the Peterson case, said Lanning, now retired from the FBI. At the height of the satanic panic, he fielded two calls a day asking advice. These days, he gets about two calls a year.

He is skeptical when people talk about satanic "holidays," signs and rituals. Since no cult killing by satanists has even been documented by police, how can anyone profess expertise, he asks.“

the red portion is something I touched on yesterday. How exactly does one become an expert in something there is no documented (in the US) proof of ever having happened? That is what I hope the State asks Perlmutter IF she is even allowed to testify at trial.

ETA and before someone says "but he is talking specifically about Satanic killings" the same question would still apply to Perlmutter. Can she show anyone one single documented case of Odinist/heathen/Asatru ritual killings? Just one? I am very confident she cannot.

 

[shonyakay]

The comment above, "the totality of the evidence" is what I wanted to focus on in this post, as it is THAT evidence that, very early on, led investigators to conclude BG was their primary suspect. I believe they knew at that time, the man on the bridge, was the same man that murdered the girls at the crime scene. Question is, how'd they know that?

Police: Man in photos now 'main suspect' in 2 girls' deaths

DELPHI, Ind. (AP) - A man photographed walking along a northern Indiana trail system around the time two teenage girls later found slain were dropped off by...

www.dailymail.co.uk

IMO it was SC's and BB's similar clothing descriptions of BG. BB placing him on the bridge right before the girls arrived and SC placing him on 300 N walking away from the area of the bridge (muddy, bloody, and disheveled) right after the girls went "missing".

IIRC in the PC it stated SC and BB identified the video of BG as the man they had seen.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Same google zoom link of area from yesterday too.

Google Earth view of the south end of the bridge. The white "ribbon" on the left is the private drive. If you expand the image, you can see a path beginning at the end of the bridge and going toward the 2 properties. That's the abandoned rr that you mentioned. RR are set upon a deep base of rocks called ballast. Those rocks are generally left behind when the rails and ties are removed.

Understanding The Railroad Track Ballast - R&S Track, Inc.

Have you ever wondered why railroad tracks have layers of crushed rocks underneath them? Learn more about the railroad track ballast.

rstrackinc.com

 

[tlcya]

It is MOO that the murders were not ritual killings NOR were they staged to appear to be ritual killings.

Mass hysteria is a thing. People having personal grudges against others is a thing. It is MOO that those two factors are at play in this case and have been since the early days. I blame social media, reddit, etc for this instance of that phenomenon.

Hampstead Hoax - Wikipedia

Satanic panic - Wikipedia

McMartin preschool trial - Wikipedia

Fall River murders - Wikipedia.

 

[shonyakay]

11:48 mm

At 11:56 in the video and "down the hill" was the path I was asking about in earlier posts.

If this really does go to trial, I wonder if the jury will be able to take a trip out there to see the area for themselves.

 

[susiQ]

IMO it was SC's and BB's similar clothing descriptions of BG. BB placing him on the bridge right before the girls arrived and SC placing him on 300 N walking away from the area of the bridge (muddy, bloody, and disheveled) right after the girls went "missing".

IIRC in the PC it stated SC and BB identified the video of BG as the man they had seen.

Unfortunately, BB and SC’s descriptions in no way align. Two different men. SC reported seeing a muddy man (not bloody) wearing a tan jacket (not blue). This is part of the discovery. FM pg 115,116. Whatever one thinks of the FM, one cannot deny a taped interview that will likely come into evidence at trial. Someone lied on the PCA and this will be exposed. JMHO

 

[Angelcat13]

My question exactly! If there was no issue with the thing, then it wouldn't have been removed, right? I'd speculate the court asked them to remove it. And I do think it would be beneficial to know who exactly mailed it to the 600? ..... or is that already known?

Edit....it's entirely possible the outfit was totally duped, but even and if so, I'd LOVE to know who did that

I typed it, therefore, it's my opinion.

It wouldn't be the first time a news station/paper has been duped into believing something was real and ran with the story before finding out it was a complete fake. Remember when Fox affiliate KTVU-TV reported ON AIR the "names" of the pilots on Asiana Flight 214 that crashed at San Francisco International Airport in 2013?

Apologies after on-air blunder over Asiana pilots’ names

The National Transportation Safety Board says an intern mistakenly confirmed to a TV station racially offensive fake names for the pilots of the Asiana flight that crashed in San Francisco. NBC’s Michelle Franzen reports.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[shonyakay]

Something like this as evidence should put weight to the theory the girls and killer walked down the hill, across the water, and were murdered where they were found.

Murdered by a cold, cold, evil, angry killer.

Agreed. Also the blood evidence. You could also argue the abrupt ending to the movement of Libby's phone at either 2:27 p.m. or 2:37 p.m. I can't remember exactly which time was testified to at the moment.

 

[justtrish]

Unfortunately, BB and SC’s descriptions in no way align. Two different men. SC reported seeing a muddy man (not bloody) wearing a tan jacket (not blue). This is part of the discovery. FM pg 115,116. Whatever one thinks of the FM, one cannot deny a taped interview that will likely come into evidence at trial. Someone lied on the PCA and this will be exposed. JMHO

I'd say the killer was likely also muddy after going into the water and then murdering 2 girls in the wooded dirty area. I do think moving around wet on a dirty ground would get him muddy. So even if the witness said he looked muddy.. maybe LE said could it have been blood and she says it could have been yes. I guess I just don't get the nit picking of this without having the full transcript of her interview or statements, we don't know what was or wasn't mentioned about blood. The defense tells us only what they want to so their client comes out in the best possible light and LE come out in the worst possible light. Doesn't mean it was a lie on either side, just means they picked what they wanted to say from the interviews.

Also he had a hoodie that was light colored under his blue jacketed so even seeing a man muddy and in a tan jacket could be RA walking the road muddy with his tan hoodie now being his outer garment. All MOO of course.

 

[FrostedGlass]

At 11:56 in the video and "down the hill" was the path I was asking about in earlier posts.

If this really does go to trial, I wonder if the jury will be able to take a trip out there to see the area for themselves.

Yes, thank you. That's the path I was referring to and people are claiming it isn't there. I just didn't have a link to it. IMO, if the girls would have been able to make a break at that point, I think they would have gone on down that path.

 

[shonyakay]

I read a quote on here somewhere that Libby fought back...

RA looked like he had been in a fight and didn't Libby have defensive wounds on her hands? I think it's just an assumption based on known facts so far.

 

[layer]

I had heard reference to the girls talking about which way they should go i.e. something about two ways when BG was approaching. - Source Gray Hughes/LG's cellphone

However, I have never heard that particular statement that Anna says Libby made about the trail having ended and they can't go any further. I was just wondering if this was stated by Libby at the end of that asphalt trail to the right of the bridge. Hence why I was asking about if that particular trail just ends in woods.

You may be correct though, the girls may have been referring to the bridge at that point.

Unless I'm mistaken, the public trail ends at the north side of the bridge. The bridge and everything beyond are private property.

 

[AugustWest]

I'd say the killer was likely also muddy after going into the water and then murdering 2 girls in the wooded dirty area. I do think moving around wet on a dirty ground would get him muddy. So even if the witness said he looked muddy.. maybe LE said could it have been blood and she says it could have been yes. I guess I just don't get the nit picking of this without having the full transcript of her interview or statements, we don't know what was or wasn't mentioned about blood. The defense tells us only what they want to so their client comes out in the best possible light and LE come out in the worst possible light. Doesn't mean it was a lie on either side, just means they picked what they wanted to say from the interviews.

Also he had a hoodie that was light colored under his blue jacketed so even seeing a man muddy and in a tan jacket could be RA walking the road muddy with his tan hoodie now being his outer garment. All MOO of course.

The problem with this is that an affidavit, which is what a PCA is, should be a statement of absolute fact, to the best of one's knowledge.

affidavit

www.law.cornell.edu

LE saying "it could have been blood" isn't a fact. "Could have been yes" is not a fact. Misrepresenting facts in an affidavit is thus problematic, because that is the basis for the charges. Which led to RA being held in a prison for over a year. Nitpicking is kinda important when you are depriving someone of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[shonyakay]

I forget items too at times, but IMO a personal item, yours or mine, like lip balm is not the same as a box cutter.

We own our personal items and may need them at any time.

A box-cutter is RA’s work-related item. It should never have been in his pocket or been removed from the store. It’s not an insignificant item and he could’ve cut himself accidentally carrying it “forgetfully” in his pocket. Box cutters are what the 9/11 hijackers used and an innocent person should be wary of having it on his person.

Even as a decades long teacher, I and my colleagues were always warned that all work-related items were not for us to take with us. Even a stick of chalk.

JMO and experience.

I wonder what the policy was for the box cutters at RA's work place. For example, I work at an Amazon Fullfillment center and we are allowed to take our box cutters to and from work.

 

[Tealgrove]

I'd say the killer was likely also muddy after going into the water and then murdering 2 girls in the wooded dirty area. I do think moving around wet on a dirty ground would get him muddy. So even if the witness said he looked muddy.. maybe LE said could it have been blood and she says it could have been yes. I guess I just don't get the nit picking of this without having the full transcript of her interview or statements, we don't know what was or wasn't mentioned about blood. The defense tells us only what they want to so their client comes out in the best possible light and LE come out in the worst possible light. Doesn't mean it was a lie on either side, just means they picked what they wanted to say from the interviews.

Also he had a hoodie that was light colored under his blue jacketed so even seeing a man muddy and in a tan jacket could be RA walking the road muddy with his tan hoodie now being his outer garment. All MOO of course.

He’d get muddy trying to scurry up the hill while getting out of Dodge. It’s a bit of a steep incline to get up to the top and out of the valley. I can picture a person almost crawling in places while trying to haul themselves up and out.

MOO

 

[Vern]

Unfortunately, BB and SC’s descriptions in no way align. Two different men. SC reported seeing a muddy man (not bloody) wearing a tan jacket (not blue). This is part of the discovery. FM pg 115,116. Whatever one thinks of the FM, one cannot deny a taped interview that will likely come into evidence at trial. Someone lied on the PCA and this will be exposed. JMHO

The PCA is a "summary" of "some" bits of evidence/statements/facts etc to show why there is "Probable Cause" to grant a search warrant.

While some are hung up on on the Franks motion saying she did not use the word "bloody", I am not. The defence literally "quoted" ONLY that one word in that Franks and that tells me there was a specific reason for that. That reason was because she did not use the word "bloody".

LE summarized what her statement covered. She probably stated something to the effect of 'he was muddy and had blood on him'. That was summarized into 'he was muddy and bloody.' That's not misleading - it's a summary.

Perhaps she also stated something like, 'he was wearing a tan jacket and was carrying a blue one' or 'had a blue one draped over his shoulder.' Perhaps the Defence just happens to fail to mention a tidbit like that in their motion ... after all why would they?

In any case, the Judge denied the defence motion after reviewing it and the video interview based on the fact that she found there was no misleading in the prosecution's PCA request. She has actually seen and heard the interview.

IMO, what will be exposed is that the D-Team has been very good at cherry-picking one word to quote ("bloody") and bis of her statement from what was and is actually "a summary" of only a portion of what a witness had to say.

IMO, MOO, IMHO.

 

[layer]

I haven't looked at that bridge for over 5 years. Frankly I was shocked to see how it appears now.

Source

 

[tlcya]

I haven't looked at that bridge for over 5 years. Frankly I was shocked to see how it appears now.

Source

yes, it looks very different today after all the renovations made in the last couple of years. That rickety rail bridge was in really scary shape. I remember thinking when the girls went missing "you would never get me up on that thing"

According to the governor’s office, the Next Level Trails initiative’s money will add decking and safety railing to the Monon High Bridge. It also will construct at 0.95-mile asphalt trail along the former rail corridor on either side of the Freedom Bridge over the Hoosier Heartland Highway, from Samuel Milroy Road to the Monon High Bridge.
$1.2M to restore Monon High Bridge trail, scene in Delphi teens’ murder

“Stabilization of the damaged pier, which prompted Indiana Landmarks to include the bridge on our 2016 10 Most Endangered list, was critical to the effort. The repaired pier ensured the preservation of this landmark span for yet another century,” said Tommy Kleckner, Western Regional director for Indiana Landmarks. “A generous grant of $248,000 from North Central Health Services allowed us to proceed with the next phase of the Monon High Bridge rehabilitation project, the installation of decking and railing on west quarter of the bridge to allow for safe pedestrian use.”
Monon High Bridge Trail Dedicated

 

[Arkay]

Let's go back to our young teenage years and just imagine for a moment:

You are walking on a 60-70ft corroded, dangerous high bridge (Abby for the first time) and some creeper man brandishing a weapon while on said bridge approaches you and orders you DTH at gunpoint.

Do you really think these girls had time to even begin to process what avenue would have been a better route of escape or if Libby was supposedly banned from a property she wouldn't have run to it for safety regardless of the consequences?

This is real life, real time happenings. These young girls were probably in shocked compliance mode. I will not blame them for being brutally murdered that day for ANY of their choices. What happened to them is beyond our understanding from our comfy analytical armchair.

Abby & Libby were innocent victims period and to think they had time and the mental wherewithal to figure out an escape plan or save themselves from a monster but didn't for whatever reason is hurtful and shockingly in poor taste. Haven't they suffered enough? They've been dead for over seven years, I think Abby & Libby have paid the ultimate price.

MOO

Excellent analysis of what likely transpired.

As though Libby or Abby had time or clarity of thought to Google property records and determine if it’s better to trespass than die.

They were children, in the daytime, in an area local to them (albeit in my eyes an awful place to hang out, that rotten bridge) and confronted by the absolute worst scenario possible. They must have been cognitively incapacitated by the terror approaching them. Then physically incapacitated once the assaults began.

There was really no way out for them, IMO, and the only miracle of the day was that somehow, Libby, in extremis, managed to video BG.

JMO

Justice for you, Abby. Justice for you, Libby.