Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #194

[m00c0w]

I think the only reason they can't state Feb 13th is because there was not a witness that can say that is exactly when they took their last breath. What if it was 12:01am on the 14th when one of the girls took their last breath, then somehow the defense would say something was not "factual" because she didn't pass on the 13th. I think it makes sense to use that wording, not because anyone thinks they were brought back to the location and killed on the 14th, but because there is not a witness to state that the exact time they ceased to breath was in fact on the 13th.

RSBM

The state actually never couches their dates like this, at least in the arrest warrant affidavit. My original comment was regarding the timeline of a white truck the defense tried to imply EF or someone else could have used to travel to Delphi to carry out the murders.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

 

[girlhasnoname]

No, I didn't miss that part. Which is why I said 'speculation' about the girls being able to make a break. They had a gun to their heads...

Yes, it amazes me to think some question why those young girls could have, should have, or IFs done anything differently or had any other thought making capabilities at that time other than complying with this maniac pointing a gun marching them across the rest of a 60-70 ft high bridge and Down the Hill.

Anyone would do exactly what they did in those circumstances, which would be trying to stay alive together. Some think they might have pulled off a slick escape plan. Yeah, no - that only happens in the movies not IRL.

Abby & Libby were the true VICTIMS here who had the terrifying experience of running across the BG=RA monster. The jury will see exactly how he left their broken lifeless bodies and will hear things they will probably never be able to get out of their minds. Regardless of the outcome, I feel sorry for the jury in this case.

I wish the jury would be allowed to walk across to the spot where they were accosted, remembering how it looked on Feb 13, 2017, and then further down the hill to the area where they were so brutally murdered. North, South, East, West, whatever direction anyone wants to call it. I believe that would be a powerful impact on them.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I can see the outline of his Sig Sauer printing through his jacket. Not everyone does and I wasn’t the first to spot it. Can’t unsee it now, though.


View attachment 527700

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I believe it might have been @Boxer who noticed that early on many threads, POI's and rumors ago. RA definitely has a gun on him we know that by Libby's video. If we only heard about 3-4 seconds, and it is rumored to be 48 seconds (or maybe longer) I wonder what else we might hear?

The State has a whole case that hasn't even been presented yet that led them to RA's arrest and they didn't pull a random name out of a hat, they had plenty of tips, POI's and others over the years if they wanted a frame up job.

There is evidence, strong and convincing evidence, self confessions aside.

JMO

 

[shonyakay]

Anyone would do exactly what they did in those circumstances, which would be trying to stay alive together. Some think they might have pulled off a slick escape plan. Yeah, no - that only happens in the movies not IRL.

It's not pulled out of thin air though and it's not at all a slight to the girls to discuss that they may have tried to flee at some point. There is evidence that could indicate such like the clothing in the water, the muddy/disturbed bank, their bodies found fairly close to the water. The brutal seemlingly frenzied attack on Libby.

I have heard that you never want a perp to take you to a second location. When that happens it never seems to end well, sadly.

 

[Justice101]

It's not pulled out of thin air though and it's not at all a slight to the girls to discuss that they may have tried to flee at some point. There is evidence that could indicate such like the clothing in the water, the muddy/disturbed bank, their bodies found fairly close to the water. The brutal seemlingly frenzied attack on Libby.

I have heard that you never want a perp to take you to a second location. When that happens it never seems to end well, sadly.

Wasn't one of the girls shoes found on the other side of the bank?

 

[AugustWest]

What's this about? Anybody know?

08/28/2024

Order Issued At request of counsel, Court orders the Clerk of Carroll County to withdraw the appearances of the attorneys delineated in the order, as they were entered as intervenors or for a limited purpose. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed:

The court is cleaning up the record, removing counsel who have made a previous limited appearance. Nothing to read into.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Would the kidnapper want to walk two girls at gunpoint towards private property and driveways?

You quoted me and asked me this question. My answer:
No.

 

[shonyakay]

Wasn't one of the girls shoes found on the other side of the bank?

One of Libby's shoes was found caught up in mulch/debris in the creek close to the bank on the side of the creek that they were found at. The other shoe of Libby's was found under Abby's body.

 

[WildHuncher]

I believe it might have been @Boxer who noticed that early on many threads, POI's and rumors ago. RA definitely has a gun on him we know that by Libby's video. If we only heard about 3-4 seconds, and it is rumored to be 48 seconds (or maybe longer) I wonder what else we might hear?

The State has a whole case that hasn't even been presented yet that led them to RA's arrest and they didn't pull a random name out of a hat, they had plenty of tips, POI's and others over the years if they wanted a frame up job.

There is evidence, strong and convincing evidence, self confessions aside.

JMO

A cartridge from RA’s gun was there. RA admits he was there dressed very like BG. BG was photographed there with what looks like RA’s gun in his pocket. BG reportedly walks on up and orders the girls down the hill. There are heard on audio mention of, and noises from, a gun.

It makes the most sense to tie it all together as RA = BG = the killer.

 

[shonyakay]

One of Libby's shoes was found caught up in mulch/debris in the creek close to the bank on the side of the creek that they were found at. The other shoe of Libby's was found under Abby's body.

Just want to clarify I know the black Nike shoe with a white stripe was Libby's because Kelsi confirmed this. Also, Abby doesn't have those Nike shoes on in the bridge picture. There is pictures of the clothing items/shoe in the water and this is also verified by the helicopter footage on February 14th, 2017.

The info of Libby's other shoe being under Abby's body comes from the recent hearings.

 

[tlcya]

It really is refreshing to read a Motion that spells out why this 3rd party nonsense is just that...nonsense.

<snipped>

The defense, in several hours of presentation of evidence, supplemented by numerous documents and depositions, failed to present any evidence that links Odinism, BH, PW or any of the individuals listed in the State’s Motion in Limine to these murders.

Adobe Acrobat

MOO

From the State's Response - page 3 paragraph 1

By contrast, as the August 1st hearing demonstrated, the defense has only offered up speculation supported by conjecture and buttressed by “what-ifs”. Without evidence, material or otherwise, that these were ritualistic murders, the defense speculates that various social media posts by Brad Holder suggest he could be interested in Odin based rituals, and, therefore, could be connected to the crime scene. Then the defense add the conjecture that since Elvis Fields and Holder have vaguely similar social media posts, and both might have a passing acquaintance with a man named Johnny Messer, then, perhaps Fields may possibly know Holder. The defense then adds a “what-if” unsupported by evidence, i.e. what-if the crime took place on the following day –in order to get around the inconvenient fact that Holder has an alibi for the time when the murders, according to the police investigation, occurred.
[snip]
from page 3 paragraph 2

Merely because law enforcement, in the days, weeks and months following the murders, pursued and followed-up on various tips, rumors, and theories, does not mean that the trier of fact should be misled, confused or distracted by tips, rumors and theories unsupported by admissible evidence.

THIS. All of this is. but particularly the BBM portion. The Dt wants license to engage in arguing sheer fiction before the jury. What if this? Nope evidence proves otherwise. But what if that? nope, again, not supported by evidence. But what if that is because the other? Anyone can meet facts with a series of what if to continue to support their ridiculous argument. But the what ifs are not and will never be evidence under the law and the 3rd part defense MUST be supported by some evidence.

Further, the fact that LE investigated the tips regarding those individuals and later stopped investigating them is not evidence of some sort of cover up or unwillingness to pursue those suspects. It is in fact evidence that no matter how "out there" some of the tips received were, LE followed up on them until they were satisfied evidence did not support the involvement of those individuals.

 

[statt#1]

Hmmmmm, I wonder if a blue jacket could, from a particular angle, or in a particular moment, appear to be tan, as a result of having rolled around in, slipped and fell in, or otherwise having been subjected to....mud.

 

[shonyakay]

Hmmmmm, I wonder if a blue jacket could, from a particular angle, or in a particular moment, appear to be tan, as a result of having rolled around in, slipped and fell in, or otherwise having been subjected to....mud.

Good point.

 

[tlcya]

I wonder if someone who inadvertently got blood on them from having committed a murder might then use mud to try to disguise said blood from being identified as such by any potential witnesses as they left the crime scene.

 

[Boxer]

I believe it might have been @Boxer who noticed that early on many threads, POI's and rumors ago. RA definitely has a gun on him we know that by Libby's video. If we only heard about 3-4 seconds, and it is rumored to be 48 seconds (or maybe longer) I wonder what else we might hear?

The State has a whole case that hasn't even been presented yet that led them to RA's arrest and they didn't pull a random name out of a hat, they had plenty of tips, POI's and others over the years if they wanted a frame up job.

There is evidence, strong and convincing evidence, self confessions aside.

JMO

i agree. He was on the bridge.

I did ID the gun early because he had a visible gun printing in his pocket, and the particular model had distinctive outline.
Maybe that's what the police were hinting at with please look at this photo is there anything you recognize, (like maybe a habit of putting a gun in a pocket?)

RA looks like bridge guy.
The girls said "hes got a gun."
RA could not have missed passing the girls on the trail as they approached the bridge and he left the bridge, as he said, to go "sit on a bench." So he lied about not seeing them, and in addition all else lies are a form of confession.

 

[Vern]

I thought she was one the people the D wanted to depose again, so she already had been, and the prosecution was calling it harassment?

I think it's also interesting that in the State's Motion to Quash, they have included this bit:
Edited by me to (Thanks @tlcya):
I think it's also interesting that the Motion to Quash includes this bit:

1. Dr. Fidler was served with a subpoena commanding her to appear for a deposition on August 28, 2024, in the Carroll County Courthouse, Circuit Court Jury Room. The subpoena was issued in connection with a criminal proceeding in which Dr. Fidler is not a party.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

So, if she has already been deposed as some have speculated, and she is also not party to this case, why in the world .... ????

 

[tlcya]

I think it's also interesting that in the State's Motion to Quash, they have included this bit:

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

So, if she has already been deposed as some have speculated, and she is also not party to this case, why in the world .... ????

The Motion to Quash came from Fidler through her own independent counsel and not the state. I feel like the testimony they want to elicit from her is some sort of hail Mary for the DT to attempt to substantiate one of their many "what ifs". I just can't figure out what they think she can testify to that is helpful to them.

 

[Megnut]

If the imprint on the tree was left by Libby, then it's not a rune.

What's left to pretend it's ritualistic?

Branches and leaves? A setting by water? A clearing? Boy, if that makes a crime scene a textbook ritual sacrifice, we're gonna have to rethink a lot of crimes.

Comparisons are important. I wonder what century we'd have to go to to find ritual killings in order to make any comparisons here. I wonder what sort of ritual killing involves a chaotic scene.

It's all moot though because, without the F/7/L, ritual is a boat that don't float.

JMO

 

[Vern]

I don't understand your argument. Here is what the defense team wrote in the FM. The idea that the man seen walking by SC would have blood on him is likely supported by this statement by the FBI's search for RL:

https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/logan-warrrant.pdf

(snip)
"Because of the nature of the Victim's wounds it is nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten blood on his person/clothing."

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

Pg 24
(snips)
"The evidence will also show that Liggett just flat out lied about what he (Liggett) claimed Sarah Carbaugh told him in 2017 concerning a man walking down the road near the murder scene. For Liggett’s timeline to work, Liggett needed Sarah Carbaugh to describe a man walking down the road wearing a blue jacket, who had blood covering his clothing. However, in 2017 Sarah did not say these things. This did not prevent Liggett from affirming under oath that Sarah Carbaugh did say those things."

"In fact, what Sarah Carbaugh actually told Liggett in 2017, was that she (Carbaugh) observed a man walking down the road wearing a tan coat whose clothes were muddy. Nowhere did Carbaugh claim in 2017 that the man she observed was wearing a blue coat. Nowhere did Carbaugh claim in 2017 that the man she observed was wearing bloody clothes. Nowhere. This truth about what Sarah Carbaugh actually told Liggett in 2017 blows up Liggett’s timeline, which is the likely reason Liggett failed to include this information in his affidavit."

Here's my argument:

- The FMs themselves are not based upon "known facts" but rather suppostion/what ifs etc (see their own footnotes);
- Testimony given under oath SINCE all of the FMs were written & filed has contradicted the FMs;
- The testimony under oath comes from LE (some cited by the D-Team itself), experts etc;
- FM1, FM2, FM3 (and perhaps more - 4??): DENIED;
- Defence has attempted to have the SW tossed because of the PCA - Motion DENIED; so
- This is settled/decided by the Court.

So, IMO, being as the rulings have already been given on the PCA by the Judge who, unlike myself or anyone else here, has actually seen the interview, and the FMs decided, I'm choosing to move onward and forward. No more beating of dead horses for me.

If RA is convicted, when the appeals happen - and they will - perhaps these settled matters will come back into play. But, right now - today - they are settled matters. I'm just not going to continue the cycle of debating decided matters. I'm now moving forward from the FMs and on towards to seeing Justice for Abby and Libby in the courts.

 

[SouthEnd]

If the imprint on the tree was left by Libby, then it's not a rune.

What's left to pretend it's ritualistic?

Branches and leaves? A setting by water? A clearing? Boy, if that makes a crime scene a textbook ritual sacrifice, we're gonna have to rethink a lot of crimes.

Comparisons are important. I wonder what century we'd have to go to to find ritual killings in order to make any comparisons here. I wonder what sort of ritual killing involves a chaotic scene.

It's all moot though because, without the F/7/L, ritual is a boat that don't float.

JMO

Oh that reminds me that when we were kids, we used to paint symbols that meant nothing with mud on trees, sometimes even carve them to look a certain way. God forbid if kids had gotten to that area a few weeks before the murders and carved the lines and squiggles we used to on the trees around there.

I believe, IMO MOO etc, that after Professor Turko's takedown of the DT's interpretation if his deposition, the Odinistic Sacrifice theory was already dead in the water. I hope we can move forwards without the funfair and have the trial over and done with in the least painful, for the families, way.