Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #195

[ClearAhead]

Now that the judge has declared the defendant is not allowed present a defense, how long will the trial last? 2 days?

IMO MOO

If the D has nothing to say about why the P’s evidence doesn’t prove he’s guilty then you could be right. If their best shot was to pound away at the Odinism angle in order to defect and distract the Jury, that often indicates they believe the State’s evidence is very damning.

The door could be squeaking open to a plea deal involving incarceration in a prison closest to RA’s family.

JMO and MOO

 

[susane7]

I am happy with that order but I'm also surprised that Kegan Kline and Ron Logan also aren't allowed. I don't think they had anything to do with the crime but I think there are more "substance" than the odinists.


So the odinism in general, without specific names isn't also allowed, right? I am also surprised by that.

I think the defense will appeal this order to Supreme Court again (if its possible) and try to remove the judge again.

 

[tlcya]

SBM [tlcya]
I think the defense will went appeal this order to Supreme Court again (if its possible) and try to remove the judge again.

I agree, they may again try to appeal for JG's removal. I do not think that will be successful if they do so, and that will only further harm their client at trial because it is time wasted that should be spent on his defense at trial.

ETA, meaning since they can't do the SODDI/Odin defense they need to be focused on rebutting/discrediting the evidence the state will be presenting. the Bullet, the eyewitnesses, the confessions, his admitted presence on the bridge, the timeline, etc. JMO IMO

 

[ClearAhead]

I think the focus of the trial will be on RA’s mental health at the time of the murders. If he’d already been diagnosed the Major Depressive Disorder along with any other disorders (separation anxiety?) as well, especially IF he had quit taking his medication or if it was changed around February, 2017 it’s quite believable to me that he went off the deep end.

A prior history regarding his mental health might also explain why a male almost 50 years old was unable to gain employment beyond that of a minimum wage pharmacy clerk.

As sometimes happens perhaps a mutual dependency situation also existed whereby both his mother and his wife felt sorry and defended him for his mental challenges ‘it wasn’t really his fault’.

Totally all my speculation.

Accused Delphi murderer claims jailers treat him like a 'prisoner of war' in effort to drive him to a 'mental breakdown'

Attorneys for accused Delphi murderer Richard Allen claim he's being held in horrific conditions to frustrate his ability to assist in his own defense at trial.

lawandcrime.com

“Mr. Allen appeared to be suffering from various psychotic symptoms which counsel would describe as schizophrenic and delusional,” his attorneys wrote. “Counsel further believes that in our April 4, 2023 interaction, Mr. Allen seems to be suffering from memory loss and is demonstrating an overall inability to communicate rationally with counsel and family members.”

https://www.wane.com/news/richard-allens-confessions-to-family-doctors-ruled-admissible-in-delphi-murders-trial/

“While the defendant does suffer from major depressive disorder and anxiety, those are not serious mental illnesses that prevent the defendant from making voluntary statements.”

 

[justtrish]

I am happy with that order but I'm also surprised that Kegan Kline and Ron Logan also aren't allowed. I don't think they had anything to do with the crime but I think there are more "substance" than the odinists.


So the odinism in general, without specific names isn't also allowed, right? I am also surprised by that.

I think the defense will appeal this order to Supreme Court again (if its possible) and try to remove the judge again.

The judge can only rule on what is presented in court. It's my understanding from listening to MS episodes and reading the MSM articles from people who were in the court room that they didn't present anything of substance about KK, or RL.. so the judge isn't going to rule to allow those in just because those 2 seem to have more of a connection to the case vs the Odinists. What evidence did the defense present to her to connect them to the crime scene or the case? I don't think she was to look at the entire case and everything she knows about it and rule on this SODDI motion, I think she was to look at what was presented to her in support of this motion and then rule on that. If the D didn't present much on RL or KK.. then what did she have to look at to make that determination?

 

[Tealgrove]

I agree, they may again try to appeal for JG's removal. I do not think that will be successful if they do so, and that will only further harm their client at trial because it is time wasted that should be spent on his defense at trial.

ETA, meaning since they can't do the SODDI/Odin defense they need to be focused on rebutting/discrediting the evidence the state will be presenting. the Bullet, the eyewitnesses, the confessions, his admitted presence on the bridge, the timeline, etc. JMO IMO

Honest question here.

If the DT tried to appeal to the Supreme Court and try to have the Judge removed again does the Supreme Court HAVE to hear the appeal or can they deny it?

 

[sunshineray]

Delphi suspect's defense thrown into chaos as judge blocks 'cult ritual' theory

THE judge in Delphi suspect Richard Allen’s murder trial has banned his attorneys from using a bizarre cult ritual theory as a defense. Former attorneys of Allen, 51, defended their client by…

www.the-sun.com

View attachment 528952

Interesting, Nothing after October last year on RA's mental condition made that chart? I guess all his time spent in Wabash Correctional was uneventful?

 

[sunshineray]

I am surprised KAK wasn't allowed, but the Judge does have a lot of discretion in this.

It must be because their active phones placed them at home the day of the murders? Isn't that what was said at the hearings?

 

[Tealgrove]

Would family members of RA as well as Abby and Libby have been present for this private hearing this morning?

 

[tlcya]

Honest question here.

If the DT tried to appeal to the Supreme Court and try to have the Judge removed again does the Supreme Court HAVE to hear the appeal or can they deny it?

I don't know. I am sure @AugustWest could answer this one though, in light of the newest order disallowing the SODDI/Odin defense, I imagine there are a number of questions in this thread that ruling will birth.

 

[sunshineray]

Now that the judge has declared the defendant is not allowed present a defense, how long will the trial last? 2 days?

IMO MOO

That's not what was ruled. It was ruled the SODDI defense of men that could not be placed at the scene, at the time of the murders, could not come before the jury. That's absolutely reasonable and right under the law, following the law.

 

[AugustWest]

I don't know. I am sure @AugustWest could answer this one though, in light of the newest order disallowing the SODDI/Odin defense, I imagine there are a number of questions in this thread that ruling will birth.

Rule 14 - Interlocutory Appeals, Ind. R. App. P. 14 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Rule 14 - Interlocutory Appeals, Ind. R. App. P. 14, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

Interlocutory appeals for this decision, as well as the decision to disqualify the judge, are called "discretionary appeals." This means that the trial court (aka Judge Gull) would make the decision of whether to certify the appeal and allow it to proceed to the Indiana Supreme Court. So, the answer is yes, the defense could try to have the judge removed, but the decision of whether to send it to the ISC is Judge Gull's decision. I'll give you one guess as to what I think her decision would be on that.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I don’t see how there can be a Plan B.
There is no credibility in saying now “We knew, without a doubt, that Odinists were responsible, but NOW we know, without a doubt, blah blah blah is responsible.”

The sun is shining in Delphi today. Time for the defense and RA to do the right thing. The fraud that they have tried to pull here is reprehensible. Make it right.

Opinion

 

[Tealgrove]

Rule 14 - Interlocutory Appeals, Ind. R. App. P. 14 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Rule 14 - Interlocutory Appeals, Ind. R. App. P. 14, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

Interlocutory appeals for this decision, as well as the decision to disqualify the judge, are called "discretionary appeals." This means that the trial court (aka Judge Gull) would make the decision of whether to certify the appeal and allow it to proceed to the Indiana Supreme Court. So, the answer is yes, the defense could try to have the judge removed, but the decision of whether to send it to the ISC is Judge Gull's decision. I'll give you one guess as to what I think her decision would be on that.

Thank you for that explanation.

 

[ClearAhead]

Honest question here.

If the DT tried to appeal to the Supreme Court and try to have the Judge removed again does the Supreme Court HAVE to hear the appeal or can they deny it?

Any appeal can be denied.

I’m thinking the D would be more inflamed by the ruling to allow the confessions in, than her ruling the SODDI theory is out. Given there isn’t any admissible testimony that would have created doubt that another person was guilty of the murders, it wouldn’t have helped his defense anyway and the D would know a trial is only based on facts, not speculation or innuendo. MOO

 

[ClearAhead]

That's not what was ruled. It was ruled the SODDI defense of men that could not be placed at the scene, at the time of the murders, could not come before the jury. That's absolutely reasonable and right under the law, following the law.

This is right, the defense’s SODDI defense didn’t meet the required legal benchmark. That’s how the law works.

 

[tlcya]

This is right, the defense’s SODDI defense didn’t meet the required legal benchmark. That’s how the law works.

correct. My understanding is the DT could still suggest some unknown individual was present in the same area at the same time as RA during the abduction/murders - just like their client. Some unknown individual is actually responsible for the murders and not their client.

What the cannot do is suggest the specific individuals that they named throughout their several versions of Franks Motions are responsible, because they presented no compelling evidence to allow them to name individuals. I do believe they can still go with "our client didn't do it, therefore some unknown individual must have." defense.

 

[Megnut]

I hope the trial -- if we get there -- will be video-recorded. Even if not livestreamed, released after verdict. We live in the age of digital technology and video is an advancement to transcript.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

I’m self reporting this post to get clarification from the Mods as to what may or may not be discussed now in light of Judge Gull’s ruling.

A lot of names have been thrown around so I think it’s important that we know how to move forward.

From the ruling:

"The case law is quite clear that the nexus must not be based on speculation, conjecture, rumors, or hearsay, but rather on admissible evidence"

As the Court has not seen any "admissible evidence" to support such speculation, this equates to / aligns with WS policy that speculation must be based on some "known fact".

Going forward, any general discussion of Odinism or speculation on any of the named individuals is off limits.

 

[Knitty]

09/04/2024

Order Issued The Court, having had the State's Motion in Limine under advisement following a hearing conducted on August 1, 2024, and having heard and considered the evidence, admitted exhibits, arguments of counsel, Defendant's Supplemental Submission Regarding State's Motion in Limine (filed August 13, 2024), and the State's Response to Defendant's Memorandum of Law (filed August 26, 2024), grants paragraphs 1 through 6, over defendant's objection, and grants paragraphs 8 through 12 over defendant's objection. As it relates to paragraph 7, the burden is on the defendant to show a nexus between Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing, Brad Holder, Patrick Westfall, Johnny Messer, Elvis Fields, Ned Smith, Rod Abrahms, Kegan Kline, Jerry Kline, Ron Logan and the murders of the two victims. The case law is quite clear that the nexus must not be based on speculation, conjecture, rumors, or hearsay, but rather on admissible evidence. The Court finds the defense has failed to produce admissible evidence demonstrating a nexus between Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing, Brad Holder, Patrick Westfall, Johnny Messer, Elvis Fields, Ned Smith, Rod Abrahms, Kegan Kline, Jerry Kline, Ron Logan and the murders. Therefore, the Court grants paragraph 7 of the State's Motion in Limine over defendant's objection. The Court will not permit the evidence submitted by the defense in support of their arguments regarding third-party perpetrators in the trial of this cause as the probative value of such evidence is greatly outweighed by confusion of the issues and its potential to mislead the jury. The Court will allow that evidence to support an offer of proof at the trial if one is made by Counsel. Jury selection will commence in Allen Superior Court October 14, 2024, with trial commencing in the Carroll Circuit Court, concluding November 15, 2024. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed:

MOD NOTE: After consultation with the mod/admin team:

"The case law is quite clear that the nexus must not be based on speculation, conjecture, rumors, or hearsay, but rather on admissible evidence. The Court finds the defense has failed to produce admissible evidence demonstrating a nexus between Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing, Brad Holder, Patrick Westfall, Johnny Messer, Elvis Fields, Ned Smith, Rod Abrahms, Kegan Kline, Jerry Kline, Ron Logan and the murders."

Now that we know the Court has not seen any "admissible evidence" in that regard, this equates to / aligns with WS policy that speculation must be based on some "known fact". Therefore, speculation on those individuals is off limits.

ETA: This includes general discussion of Odinism.