Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #195

[shonyakay]

That's a good link, but still, in my mind doesn't answer the question. Maybe I'm just missing the point completely. Help me out here Exactly where is the evidence? And why is it being kept from coming to light? You know, the evidence that someone other than the accused murdered these girls? I opine it's not out there, and never came to light, because there is none.

"Am I really to believe that no LE, FBI, Attorney, or any other player in this case that had direct evidence of another player's involvement in these murders would keep that information from coming to light? Why would they do that? Who would protect the identity of another murderer in this case? I don't get it."

At the hearings, evidence was introduced showing where these other men (Defense's alternative "suspects") were that day. My guess is it shows they were not in Delphi. You can't be in two places at once.

 

[iamshadow21]

So what’s the defenses next step realistically here?

Like eating an elephant. One bite at a time.

Look at the discovery. Come up with a strategy to handle a specific piece of evidence in the courtroom. Repeat.

MOO

 

[tlcya]

One would be to make sure you have all offers of proof on the record for appeal. Another would be that offers of proof are made outside the presence of a jury, so you limit exposure to prejudicial information given to them.

ETA: I don't want to go too deeply into motions in limine, procedure and strategy, but here is a good read on that subject

https://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1825&context=klj

interesting, thank you.

 

[shonyakay]

I will also search for the article IIRC, that said FBI helped profile and support that 2019 presser.

And I may be the odd duck out, but I think Libby & Abby were his targets that day,

Nobody else.

He walked with a purpose, per affidavit, and in MO, on a mission

Page 3 - https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf
JMO

If you find info about the FBI helping with the 2019 presser, when the second sketch was released, please post it. If that is the case then it just means I was provided wrong info by someone who attended the hearngs.

I think he walked with a purpose because he intended to commit a crime. What exactly he had premeditated? SA? Murder? Both? I don't know. I will wait to hear more info at the trial.

I believe the four girls weren't harmed because they were in a larger group and they were headed out of the trails when he saw them.

In regards to Betsy Blair, I don't know if he even saw her. If he did, it's possible he headed to follow her. I believe he was heading away from the bridge when he spotted Libby and Abby.

Betsy seen the girls pass by her when she headed back to her car and on LG's video, Abby mentioned something to the effect of, "He's right behind me, isn't he?" So I believe they already passed by him before they got on the bridge.

I believe Libby and Abby became the targets when he saw them heading toward the bridge that day. He knew he could trap them.

Regarding the Anthony Shots account and Libby, there were messages between the AS account and Libby prior to and up until February 13, 2017.

In the hearings, VIto testified that he spoke to many in Peru and he never made a connection between the Allen's and the Kline's. He also stated there was no DIGITAL connection.

 

[sunshineray]

That whole issue you're talking about is now OT (my understanding)

In general terms it's not. I agree with statt#1 in finding it very hard to understand a reason why FBI, ISP, Prosecutors would all be in on a conspiracy to blame a man, with no previous record of criminal behaviors, for a double child murder...unless they were certain he was the guilty party. I also think the existence of his vast confessions is evidence of that. AJMO

 

[Salah11]

In general terms it's not. I agree with statt#1 in finding it very hard to understand a reason why FBI, ISP, Prosecutors would all be in on a conspiracy to blame a man, with no previous record of criminal behaviors, for a double child murder...unless they were certain he was the guilty party. I also think the existence of his vast confessions is evidence of that. AJMO

Exactly it would be so much easier to blame a KK for example as he is a predator and nobody would have any sympathy and he is already locked away for similar crimes. IMO

 

[Kittybunny]

Like eating an elephant. One bite at a time.

Look at the discovery. Come up with a strategy to handle a specific piece of evidence in the courtroom. Repeat.

MOO

But Mooooo-oooom, that sounds sooo booooo-riiiiiiing. And so hard, it will take FOREVER!

Can’t we just write Franks VI: Revenge of the Son of Franks? This one is going to be a hit, we can feel it!

 

[Salah11]

Some transcript are now available from the 3 day hearing.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[vinayd]

Some transcript are now available from the 3 day hearing.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

I read Cicero's (blood spatter expert) transcript this morning. Extremely sad. Beyond convincing.

 

[Salah11]

I read Cicero's (blood spatter expert) transcript this morning. Extremely sad. Beyond convincing.

I just came across that one as well. I was about to read it, but midnight in the UK, so I may wait until morning, so I don’t have nightmares tonight.

 

[shonyakay]

I just came across that one as well. I was about to read it, but midnight in the UK, so I may wait until morning, so I don’t have nightmares tonight.

Good idea. I would wait until morning. I have to go to work so I can't read it just yet either but just the tidbits of the testimony from those who attended the hearings were horrifying.

 

[m00c0w]

Some transcript are now available from the 3 day hearing.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

Cecil’s transcripts clear up a lot of… confusion… about the phone information. The video was timestamped and aligns with the time of other photos of AW on the bridge. GPS from SnapChat puts the photos of AW on the bridge, well, on the bridge. Not perhaps sent after the fact from somewhere else.

We also see that Cecil mentions the phone was powered on until sometime after 4:30am on 2/14; it was never turned off. While the circular discussion around text messages is pretty strange and confusing, it seems like the ultimate premise is the phone received several text messages around 4:33am on 2/14.

The far simplest explanation there is that the area the girls were found in has very poor cell service. The phone, in the location it was found, had difficulty connecting to the tower. At 4:33am, something made it a little bit easier to connect to the tower - this could be something as simple as some strong wind moving tree branches in the right way to clear up just enough line of sight for the phone to connect for a few seconds.

Something I think plenty of folks could identify with if they’ve ever been somewhere with poor but sporadic cell service.

All my opinion.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Like eating an elephant. One bite at a time.

Look at the discovery. Come up with a strategy to handle a specific piece of evidence in the courtroom. Repeat.

MOO

Honestly, I feel that the only option is to attack the timeline.

How convincing will that be? I have so many doubts.

They will have to find a way to discredit witnesses and take RA off the bridge.

I have no idea what else they could do.

AJMO

 

[shonyakay]

The far simplest explanation there is that the area the girls were found in has very poor cell service. The phone, in the location it was found, had difficulty connecting to the tower. At 4:33am, something made it a little bit easier to connect to the tower - this could be something as simple as some strong wind moving tree branches in the right way to clear up just enough line of sight for the phone to connect for a few seconds.

Something I think plenty of folks could identify with if they’ve ever been somewhere with poor but sporadic cell service.

All my opopinion.

I don't want to be morbid but with their wounded bodies being out in the woods, there may have been animal predation. I have thought that maybe the phone was moved a little bit due to this and that may have caused it. Of course we won't know until we hear the ME's testimony.
I also have thought about the phone possibly having been wet by water and/or blood and when it dried it may have started receiving messages again.
However, it may be just due to bad reception out in the woods like you mentioned.

 

[shonyakay]

Honestly, I feel that the only option is to attack the timeline.

How convincing will that be? I have so many doubts.

They will have to find a way to discredit witnesses and take RA off the bridge.

I have no idea what else they could do.

AJMO

Good luck to them with that. LoL. The timeline is what LE says makes RA/BG, not the sketches provided.

 

[Seattle1]

"Am I really to believe that no LE, FBI, Attorney, or any other player in this case that had direct evidence of another player's involvement in these murders would keep that information from coming to light? Why would they do that? Who would protect the identity of another murderer in this case? I don't get it."

No, you are not missing anything.

Specific to defense allegations of Odinism being responsible for the murders-- naming several prison guards as possible suspects, the same were interviewed by LE and affidavits submitted.

I believe another alternate was incarcerated at the time of the murders. In other words, the third party leads were not ignored-- they were investigated and simply proved to be not credible evidence.

And unlike fine wine, age has not improved any of these third party allegations or added to their credibility anymore than suggesting a Hobbit family living under the bridge is responsible for the murders.

Given the defense has nothing to work with -- the best that they can do for RA is try for reasonable doubt but that doesn't mean their trial strategy can be centered on pie in the sky, spaghetti at the wall, or other evidence with no direct link to the crime (Nexus).

It's most unfortunate that the DT has made a mockery of Nexus/the Direct Connection Doctrine and Rule 403 that's observed in more than 45 States. JMO

I

 

[justtrish]

Cecil’s transcripts clear up a lot of… confusion… about the phone information. The video was timestamped and aligns with the time of other photos of AW on the bridge. GPS from SnapChat puts the photos of AW on the bridge, well, on the bridge. Not perhaps sent after the fact from somewhere else.

We also see that Cecil mentions the phone was powered on until sometime after 4:30am on 2/14; it was never turned off. While the circular discussion around text messages is pretty strange and confusing, it seems like the ultimate premise is the phone received several text messages around 4:33am on 2/14.

The far simplest explanation there is that the area the girls were found in has very poor cell service. The phone, in the location it was found, had difficulty connecting to the tower. At 4:33am, something made it a little bit easier to connect to the tower - this could be something as simple as some strong wind moving tree branches in the right way to clear up just enough line of sight for the phone to connect for a few seconds.

Something I think plenty of folks could identify with if they’ve ever been somewhere with poor but sporadic cell service.

All my opinion.

Many of us never doubted the phone was laying right there the entire time turned on just as Libby left it. It just made zero sense for any other scenario to be happening, unless you are the defense and you need this phone to be turned back on at 430 to try to implicate someone else. Once again the defense trying to muddy the waters and suggest that someone was returning to the scene at 430am to turn on a phone or to bring the victims back to place them there where people were actively looking for them. Absurd.

 

[Seattle1]

Public Defender Bill Lebrato represented RA for 79 days before withdrawing when RA's original defense team was reinstated following a decision by the Supreme Court.

Lebrato gave an MSM interview in Feb 2024, and I think he made some interesting comments about both the defense strategy, RA, and Judge Gull.

https://fox59.com/indiana-news/ive-...-delphi-suspect-richard-allen-discusses-case/

 

[vinayd]

Many of us never doubted the phone was laying right there the entire time turned on just as Libby left it. It just made zero sense for any other scenario to be happening, unless you are the defense and you need this phone to be turned back on at 430 to try to implicate someone else. Once again the defense trying to muddy the waters and suggest that someone was returning to the scene at 430am to turn on a phone or to bring the victims back to place them there where people were actively looking for them. Absurd.

The transcript shows it plain and simple that the D never had the goods and won't be able to prove them at trial. That was a quick read. Lots of flailing during cross IMO.

No games will be allowed in the trial of these little girls. Since at least April of this year they have been treated with white gloves. The court has been begging for a nexus and the only tentacles are coming from their client. 61 and counting.

 

[Seattle1]

“The case law is quite clear that the nexus must not be based on speculation, conjecture, rumors, or hearsay, but rather on admissible evidence,” Gull wrote in her order. She added that the defense had “failed to produce admissible evidence” demonstrating such a nexus during hearings.

The judge noted that the ruling came despite objections from the defense.

She left the door open—slightly—for the defense by writing that the court would allow evidence “to support an offer of proof at the trial if one is made by Counsel.”

ETA: IMO, Judge Gull leaving the door open for the defense to present an offer of proof at trial should serve to prevent the DT from appealing the decision. Good job at keeping the case on schedule.

9/4/24 -- https://fox59.com/indiana-news/judg...enses-alternative-theories-in-delphi-murders/