Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #195

[susiQ]

Maybe they were concerned he would start to try to eat his own poo again?!



His behaviour seems quite unpredictable and could be a danger to others and himself. So it’s better for all involved to make sure he isn't able to hurt himself or others.

IMO

Galipeau said:
Q So he wasn’t a threat to anybody, was he?
A There was some noncompliance, but not a threat, no.

Shackling RA in such a way, could in no way prevent him from harming himself if he was determined to do so. MOO

3 Day Hearing - Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[ClearAhead]

Really? Shackling him in such a way that he is unable to sign papers or even shake Lebrato’s hand? How exactly does that protect him from other inmates that “want the honour killing of him?” Giving IDOC a “C” is being rather generous, IMHO.

Are you questioning whether it was RA who signed this letter?

BBM

EXCLUSIVE: Richard Allen's former defense attorney doubts he'll get a fair trial

Bill Lebrato opens up about accused Delphi killer Richard Allen's trial, alleged inhumane treatment and evidence of white nationalist Odinist involvement.

www.courttv.com

“Lebrato is referencing a typed letter dated October 11, 2023, given to Special Judge Fran Gull. It was signed by Richard Allen and urged Gull not to take action against his appointed public defenders, Rozzi and Baldwin……

“He didn’t write the letter. Mr. Rozzi prepared the letter and had Mr. Allen sign. It is my understanding. It was typed. And I’m assuming Mr. Allen doesn’t have access to a computer or a typewriter in the Department of Corrections,”

 

[susiQ]

Are you questioning whether it was RA who signed this letter?

BBM

EXCLUSIVE: Richard Allen's former defense attorney doubts he'll get a fair trial

Bill Lebrato opens up about accused Delphi killer Richard Allen's trial, alleged inhumane treatment and evidence of white nationalist Odinist involvement.

www.courttv.com

“Lebrato is referencing a typed letter dated October 11, 2023, given to Special Judge Fran Gull. It was signed by Richard Allen and urged Gull not to take action against his appointed public defenders, Rozzi and Baldwin……

“He didn’t write the letter. Mr. Rozzi prepared the letter and had Mr. Allen sign. It is my understanding. It was typed. And I’m assuming Mr. Allen doesn’t have access to a computer or a typewriter in the Department of Corrections,”

I was just quoting what Lebrato said about his experience with RA when he and Scremin came on board. I’m not questioning who signed that letter. Obviously, it was drafted by his defense, R & B, after Gull disqualified them (without a hearing) and RA signed it. All MOO

 

[sunshineray]

“Lebrato says he’s handled 75-100 murder cases and taken 35-50 of them to trial, including several death penalty cases, but in his 25-year career, he’s never seen a pre-trial defendant treated as harshly as Richard Allen.”

EXCLUSIVE: Richard Allen's former defense attorney doubts he'll get a fair trial

Bill Lebrato opens up about accused Delphi killer Richard Allen's trial, alleged inhumane treatment and evidence of white nationalist Odinist involvement.

www.courttv.com

Seems to me, from everything we've discussed here, RA treated himself pretty harshly. From Harshman's testimony it seems, to me, his family also treated him quite harshly when he wanted to confess and save his soul to get to heaven.

We've also heard after a fashion RA's attitude improved. In the long run keeping RA away from other general population prisoners and under 24/7 surveillance kept him alive. If he'd been in a County jail and had the mental and spiritual issues there, it may have been a much worse outcome...less security, less mental health available. All just my opinion but what would be said if he'd managed to end his life because of that? I believe he was where he needed to be under the circumstances. JMO

 

[m00c0w]

Am I miss remembering or in one of the Franks did the defense not claim there was little to no blood found at the crime scene?

Because reading this testimony, it’s just farcical, so now I'm wondering if I am just misremembering.

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/458655775_1048975700254015_5033912190191815347_n.pdf/1041_001.pdf?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=2b0e22&_nc_ohc=5tBJ7JizGWYQ7kNvgEkfEO3&_nc_ht=cdn.fbsbx.com&_nc_gid=AXof0JzRAZBtoTR2uY17mCI&oh=03_Q7cD1QEN7xumHrkOOF4Q1l-wPzAUZPxpT7NJ1bbey91I4u8jCw&oe=66DD1129&dl=1&fbclid=IwY2xjawFIZ5pleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHbb_CCh1IVbKXKgZR-gpuJLjPlEe3QsU2atzxqTstuP3Kj39_NlUHDfWFA_aem_hhDwEiqwlRhmzFcH10GFdA

They definitely misrepresented the crime scene, that’s for sure. I think this serves as an excellent example of how the Franks motions are not affidavits and they can definitely stretch the truth and facts to fit their desired end state.

 

[justtrish]

View attachment 529674
They definitely misrepresented the crime scene, that’s for sure. I think this serves as an excellent example of how the Franks motions are not affidavits and they can definitely stretch the truth and facts to fit their desired end state.

Exactly! I just read the testimony from the blood expert and he said Abby was clothed when the fatal injury was inflicted BECAUSE there was no blood on the clothing.. I mean how can you put a sweatshirt on someone that was cut in such a way that they died and then NOT get blood on it?? I am glad we can read the transcripts to see the actual FACTS and not the defense analysis of things. So many have said they can't lie, yet here we are... what is that they are saying that she was naked when killed then redressed yet the actual expert in this said the exact opposite.

Oh and the murderers went to great lengths to keep from getting blood on Abby.. how about HE (singular) inflicted the fatal wound while she was laying down and then she couldn't get up.. she bled out and the blood fell to the ground by running down her neck and so why would blood get everywhere if that was the case? It doesn't mean anyone went to great lengths to prevent her from getting blood everywhere... more dramatization to make it seem like it was several men in the woods that day.

I wonder if the defense consulted a blood expert before they wrote up their book about the crime scene or did they come up with all these "FACTS" themselves by just looking at photos and imagining the best possible scenario for their client.

Edited to add... there was blood on the clothing, but exactly where it would be if the wound was inflicted while she was laying down and it was running under her as she bled out.

 

[m00c0w]

Exactly! I just read the testimony from the blood expert and he said Abby was clothed when the fatal injury was inflicted BECAUSE there was no blood on the clothing.. I mean how can you put a sweatshirt on someone that was cut in such a way that they died and then NOT get blood on it?? I am glad we can read the transcripts to see the actual FACTS and not the defense analysis of things. So many have said they can't lie, yet here we are... what is that they are saying that she was naked when killed then redressed yet the actual expert in this said the exact opposite.

Oh and the murderers went to great lengths to keep from getting blood on Abby.. how about HE (singular) inflicted the fatal wound while she was laying down and then she couldn't get up.. she bled out and the blood fell to the ground by running down her neck and so why would blood get everywhere if that was the case? It doesn't mean anyone went to great lengths to prevent her from getting blood everywhere... more dramatization to make it seem like it was several men in the woods that day.

I wonder if the defense consulted a blood expert before they wrote up their book about the crime scene or did they come up with all these "FACTS" themselves by just looking at photos and imagining the best possible scenario for their client.

There is a reason they only cited crime scene photos for this section - so that they could claim ignorance of the enormous amounts of blood soaked into Abby’s clothing and pooling underneath her.

My opinion only.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

View attachment 529674
They definitely misrepresented the crime scene, that’s for sure. I think this serves as an excellent example of how the Franks motions are not affidavits and they can definitely stretch the truth and facts to fit their desired end state.

Yes!
I was just coming here to say the same thing.
A very dishonest description by the defense.

 

[justtrish]

There is a reason they only cited crime scene photos for this section - so that they could claim ignorance of the enormous amounts of blood soaked into Abby’s clothing and pooling underneath her.

My opinion only.

Yes and I just edited my response to you to show that there was blood on her clothing, but it was UNDER her.. not all over it or where it would be if someone was trying to dress her after the fact. They saw what they wanted to see

 

[Boxer]

Galipeau said:
Q So he wasn’t a threat to anybody, was he?
A There was some noncompliance, but not a threat, no.

Shackling RA in such a way, could in no way prevent him from harming himself if he was determined to do so. MOO

3 Day Hearing - Google Drive

drive.google.com

Nothing can except being strapped to a gurney.

MOO correctional officers should not be exposed to unshackled non-compliant prisoners, they are at risk of get hurt during any scuffle, for instance trying to stop a prisoner from trying to launch himself down stairs.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

There is a reason they only cited crime scene photos for this section - so that they could claim ignorance of the enormous amounts of blood soaked into Abby’s clothing and pooling underneath her.

My opinion only.

Yes they used the word “appeared” in describing the blood left on AW so while it wasn’t an outright lie, it was definitely misleading.
JMO

 

[photographer4]

I have just started to read the Blood splitter expert and my heart literally aches for Libby. She would of seen Abby incapacitated and likely killed before her very eyes to then have to fight her attacker. It’s all so heartbreaking for a child to have to face such evil.

ETA - I am not diminishing what Abby went though but Libby was alive and conscious when she was attacked and literally had to fight.

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/458655775_1048975700254015_5033912190191815347_n.pdf/1041_001.pdf?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=2b0e22&_nc_ohc=5tBJ7JizGWYQ7kNvgEkfEO3&_nc_ht=cdn.fbsbx.com&_nc_gid=AXof0JzRAZBtoTR2uY17mCI&oh=03_Q7cD1QEN7xumHrkOOF4Q1l-wPzAUZPxpT7NJ1bbey91I4u8jCw&oe=66DD1129&dl=1&fbclid=IwY2xjawFIZ5pleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHbb_CCh1IVbKXKgZR-gpuJLjPlEe3QsU2atzxqTstuP3Kj39_NlUHDfWFA_aem_hhDwEiqwlRhmzFcH10GFdA

Scanning this now - it seems that this Cicero guy was not at the actual crime scene in 2017 when the kids were found or in the days after? It seems like he joined sometime in around Feb 12, 2024? So he is only looking at photos and making his assessment / analysis? How accurate is this likely to be given he was never at the actual crime scene?

 

[m00c0w]

Scanning this now - it seems that this Cicero guy was not at the actual crime scene in 2017 when the kids were found or in the days after? It seems like he joined sometime in around Feb 12, 2024? So he is only looking at photos and making his assessment / analysis? How accurate is this likely to be given he was never at the actual crime scene?

He used photos of the crime scene, autopsy photos, crime scene reports, and autopsy reports. He also examined actual evidentiary items, like the articles of clothing.

 

[Yemelyan]

He used photos of the crime scene, autopsy photos, crime scene reports, and autopsy reports. He also examined actual evidentiary items, like the articles of clothing.

To add to this, he said he did visit the "scene" - in April 2024 where he was able to observe the topology of the land and compare to the extensive photos that he had to work with.

And in my opinion the types of things he can testify to, such as blood flow patterns and characteristics of the spatter and pooling, can be accurately done with the materials he had.

 

[Boxer]

To add to this, he said he did visit the "scene" - in April 2024 where he was able to observe the topology of the land and compare to the extensive photos that he had to work with.

And in my opinion the types of things he can testify to, such as blood flow patterns and characteristics of the spatter and pooling, can be accurately done with the materials he had.

7 years of winters and springs.
The land where they were found is below and old gravel quarry, below a berm arm's drainage, MOO land may have changed flow directions several times since 2017.

 

[vinayd]

Asked and answered then sustained. Cicero has the experience and education to back up his interpretation of the crime scene. Way more than RB Perlmutter.

 

[justtrish]

Asked and answered then sustained. Cicero has the experience and education to back up his interpretation of the crime scene. Way more than RB Perlmutter.

He also stated he went to the scene in April 2024 so he could see it for himself. Obviously this wasn't when the girls were there, but he could see the photos and then see the area and walk it to get a feel for it so that is the best thing next to being at the scene when it was still active.

 

[Salah11]

So in his confessions he admits Motive for the murders. Also why he delayed confessing to the crimes.

Ricky’s mum very upset first time he confessed to the crime and then they started to control the narrative and was telling him to stop confessing it seems.

Page 11 and 12

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[Vern]

...
It's not the job of Judge Gull to regulate it.
I tend to agree that being incarcerated for 2 years on murder charges without so much as a bail hearing or prelim is crazy, but that is the fault of the justice system and his own attorneys who never applied for it.
....

Your post RS&BBM,
Delphi Legal Documents contained at zip file here:

DelphiDocs.zip

drive.google.com

On bail/bail hearings, I attach a snippit I made below of the relevent documents contained in the linked Delphi Documents Zip fle (there are 118 documents at the link). Bail was requested by Defence, Defence then requested bail hearing be delayed from 17 Feb 2023 to later date (as Defence hadn't yet received disclosure), re-set from 17 Feb 2023 to 15 June 2023. Defence then received disclosure and filed requested to Convert Bail Hearing into a Supression Hearing; that was granted by Gull.

Applicable Docs (and their file names from the zip file):

 

[Ravenmoon]

Scanning this now - it seems that this Cicero guy was not at the actual crime scene in 2017 when the kids were found or in the days after? It seems like he joined sometime in around Feb 12, 2024? So he is only looking at photos and making his assessment / analysis? How accurate is this likely to be given he was never at the actual c rime scene?

With his caliber of training and experience, I am certain his opinions are accurate.

He takes information from those that were at the crime scene as well as the coroners notes into his overall reporting.

He knows his stuff.

Most of the expert witnesses would not have been on the scene.

AJMO