Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #195

[TTF14]

So what happens next? Does the latest motion go to a higher court to hear an appeal to allow the defense to present the disallowed / inadmissible evidence?

Can the trial still go forward in October in light of this?

I believe Judge Gull gets to decide if that happens. She'll say no, and the trial will go on as scheduled. IMO.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I believe Judge Gull gets to decide if that happens. She'll say no, and the trial will go on as scheduled. IMO.

Probably it will be a no, but if the judge does grant the motion, it goes to Supreme Court? Per this?

https://www.in.gov/courts/iocs/files/pubs-trial-court-interlocutory-appeals.pdf

 

[Seattle1]

So what happens next? Does the latest motion go to a higher court to hear an appeal to allow the defense to present the disallowed / inadmissible evidence?

Can the trial still go forward in October in light of this?

An Opinion in my state is this is that this attempt to piecemeal is frowned upon. While the rules in WA provide two distinct methods of requesting the trial court to certify for immediate appellate review a decision, they are actually polar opposites. In the Delphi case, as predicted, the defense Motion is heavy on the violation of RA's civil rights. Personally, I don't trust the DT to know if they are even eligible to make the claim. MOO

https://www.washingtonappeals.com/_ARTICLES/2104-Certification_of_Interlocutory_Rulings_for_Immediate_Appeal-Howard_Goodfriend.pdf

 

[ClearAhead]

So much for the D having an alternate defense plan ready to go.

#19 Essentially, with its September 4, 2024, order, therefore, 40 days before the trial is scheduled to begin, Richard Allen’s defense was completely gutted.

 

[steeltowngirl]

“Allen’s jury trial is currently slated to begin on Oct. 14, with jurors being pulled from Allen County and transported to Carroll County for the trial. This start date may very well be in jeopardy pending a potential decision by the Indiana Court of Appeals.”

https://fox59.com/news/delphi-murders-defense-appeals-decision-barring-alternative-murder-theories/

 

[MollyDDD]

Somebody asked about the trial start date and sorry, I failed to quote that post. Nonetheless, it's October 14.

Allen’s trial has already been pushed back several times since his arrest. The most recent trial dates were May 13-31, but the case was pushed to October after the defense told Judge Gull that they needed more time to present their case.

The trial is now set to start Oct. 14 and run through Nov. 15.
8/13/24 -- Delphi murders: Next court date for Richard Allen set

You know, I often think of Abbie’s and Libby’s family members and just how awful it has to be for them to see this case drag on, unsolved for seven years. They really can’t put it to rest and move on emotionally
and it must be very difficult to live with every day.

 

[photographer4]

This idea that RA allegedly had access to volumes of his legal docs/discovery in his cell is so strange to me.

Generally, jail inmates are very restricted in the quantity of docs they have access to in their cell -- if any, and also how docs are delivered to the inmate.

Given the jail is required to retain the originals received via USPS and only give the inmate copies of the docs produced by jail staff, I recall hearings where the Court has ordered the jail to make a laptop available to the inmate, and direct their defense to only send the inmate a thumb drive because of the burden being imposed on the jail staff. Same for transcripts where the court has Ordered transcripts only by mp3 file and a player made available to the inmate.

Perhaps it's different when inmate is housed in prison because in jail, keeping legal docs inside your cell is borderline contraband. Reportedly, legal docs are high on the list of things inmates like to steal -- hoping for any form of inside information that they hope to use to better themselves and/or their situation in jail -- including trying to share information with the prosecutor they allegedly heard from the inmate which is false. They stole the info! MOO

ETA: Jailed inmates also don't have unlimited access to legal docs but reasonable access where it's collected by DOC and returned to their personal property locker.

Would this same idea of inmates wanting info to better their own standing etc that you spoke of also possibly apply to the idea of inmate companions? RA had these assigned to him and I am unsure how good an idea this was if inmates try to steal info etc from other inmates in the way you described. Moo

 

[photographer4]

So much for the D having an alternate defense plan ready to go.

#19 Essentially, with its September 4, 2024, order, therefore, 40 days before the trial is scheduled to begin, Richard Allen’s defense was completely gutted.

I kinda think they may have put this in the docs for effect. Will it work? Not likely imo. Mooooo

 

[AugustWest]

Probably it will be a no, but if the judge does grant the motion, it goes to Supreme Court? Per this?

https://www.in.gov/courts/iocs/files/pubs-trial-court-interlocutory-appeals.pdf

If Judge Gull grants the motion, it will then move to the Appellate Court, not the Supreme Court. The Appellate Court will decide whether or not to take it at that point.

An Opinion in my state is this is that this attempt to piecemeal is frowned upon. While the rules in WA provide two distinct methods of requesting the trial court to certify for immediate appellate review a decision, they are actually polar opposites. In the Delphi case, as predicted, the defense Motion is heavy on the violation of RA's civil rights. Personally, I don't trust the DT to know if they are even eligible to make the claim. MOO

https://www.washingtonappeals.com/_ARTICLES/2104-Certification_of_Interlocutory_Rulings_for_Immediate_Appeal-Howard_Goodfriend.pdf

Here are the pertinent Indiana Rules on Appellate Procedure:

Rule 14 - Interlocutory Appeals:

Indiana Rules of Appellate Procedure

This would be a discretionary interlocutory appeal, so (B) of the Rule is applicable.

 

[Seattle1]

Would this same idea of inmates wanting info to better their own standing etc that you spoke of also possibly apply to the idea of inmate companions? RA had these assigned to him and I am unsure how good an idea this was if inmates try to steal info etc from other inmates in the way you described. Moo

Sorry, I'm not following @photographer4. What is an "assigned companion" for a prison or jail inmate? Assigned by whom? I've long assumed RA is being held in ad seg/solitary confinement for his protection. JMO

 

[Seattle1]

If Judge Gull grants the motion, it will then move to the Appellate Court, not the Supreme Court. The Appellate Court will decide whether or not to take it at that point.

Here are the pertinent Indiana Rules on Appellate Procedure:

Rule 14 - Interlocutory Appeals:

Indiana Rules of Appellate Procedure

This would be a discretionary interlocutory appeal, so (B) of the Rule is applicable.

Thanks, @AugustWest for the linked local rules.

Do you think this Motion was really necessary given the Judge previously ruled she would leave the option open for the defense to again, present an offer of proof during the trial for consideration --i.e., third party/alternate evidence. Seems to me that the defense was never in fear that their right to appeal was somehow threatened or being forfeited. Or is the defense just very desperate to bypass Judge Gull? Thanks again.

 

[mrjitty]

Thanks, @AugustWest for the linked local rules.

Do you think this Motion was really necessary given the Judge previously ruled she would leave the option open for the defense to again, present an offer of proof during the trial for consideration --i.e., third party/alternate evidence. Seems to me that the defense was never in fear that their right to appeal was somehow threatened or being forfeited. Or is the defense just very desperate to bypass Judge Gull? Thanks again.

Not AW but my feeling is it's a Hail Mary.

With confessions in, and no alt suspects, what do they have? Supposedly they have this timeline and hidden murder location theory but based on everything we've seen so far, i would not be surprised to learn that idea is as rickety as the 3rd party theories.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I’m not sure JG will deny to certify, but I can see the appellate court refusing to hear it. The defense has not met their burden of proof, in my opinion, and they can’t add on at this point. They’re stuck with a lot of smoke and little actual evidence. Further, JG has actually said she’ll take offers of proof under consideration towards the same evidence during trial if the defense wishes to make such offers.

RSBM

While I agree Judge Gull's alt suspect decisions were obviously correct except maybe as regards KAK, I do wish she'd authored a proper set of evidential/factual findings for this reason. Those would then be locked in for this appeal.

IMO

 

[photographer4]

Sorry, I'm not following @photographer4. What is an "assigned companion" for a prison or jail inmate? Assigned by whom? I've long assumed RA is being held in ad seg/solitary confinement for his protection. JMO

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen living in 8x12 prison cell under suicide watch and 24-hour video surveillance

The Westville prison warden provided very specific details about the cell where Allen is living and the accommodations he is offered.

www.wthr.com

The staff put other inmates outside his cell as “inmate companions”. This is absurd to me! If inmates want info on other prisoners for their own status / benefits why would anyone ever think this was a good idea?

It doesn’t surprise me then to learn RA is said to have made at least some of the long list of “confessions” to these “companions”.

State: Allen made 61 Confessions over 60 days – Judge rules jury can hear them all - Carroll County Comet

Sixty-one times Richard Allen allegedly confessed to killing Abigail Williams and Liberty German, Prosecutor Nick McLeland said during a 3-day hearing in early August. Thursday, attorneys learned those confessions will now be heard by a jury. Special Judge Fran Gull filed her order late in the...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[mrjitty]

IMO If she had handed down her order to deny the hearing any time prior to the Ds return, I would not have given it a second thought.

The fact that the Indiana Supreme Court order was received by the lower court on Friday Jan. 19 and she denied the hearing on the next business day, Mon Jan 22, made me "over think" (your words) the issue.

I knew I had heard the following and finally found the source.
CourtTV interview with BMac regarding her interview with Labrato: They were also preparing a Franks Memo for a Franks hearing alleging that there were problems with the information that was used to obtain the search warrant for Richard Allen's home.
5:50mm

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=739579024809854

Right but she couldn't rule until SCOIN ruled because the case was frozen. So it is quite possible she simply reached her ruling during the long freeze then entered the ruling as soon as the appeal was disposed of. I understand why you think it was due to bias against the D but IMO that may be over-interpreting things as she has in fact allowed them multiple other substantive hearings, including a hearing on 3rd party suspects, two different motions to dismiss, motion to supress confessions and police interview etc

If she really was biased, there are cleverer ways to do it. IMO she would have granted a Franks motion hearing, then entered adverse factual findings right across their entire theory of the case inclusive the alternate suspects. Boom. Case holed below the water line before you get started.

Where i have sympathy for your view, is because she authors such scant opinions, we can't see what facts she found that meant the burden for Franks was not met (i.e. no false statement).

MOO

 

[shonyakay]

So it doesn't make sense to think, that the girls tried to escape through the creek, landing on RL-property by chance, and RA only followed them. The order "DTH" meant: first down the hill, then through the creek, finally onto RL-land at the exact place (lower and hidden).
He must have known RL or at least this location, which became the main crime scene. IMO

It was an unseasonably warm afternoon. These trials were somewhat popular with locals. It was a day off of school for the local kids. RA saw others on the trials and/or just leaving the trials after he arrived.

Would he purposefully cross a fairly wide creek with knee deep-water, with two teenage girls he just abducted at gun point?

My belief is that he ultimately killed them where he did because things got out of his control.

 

[sunshineray]

IMO, that quote is not accurate. Harshman said that a correction office heard Allen talking to himself and while talking to himself, apparently apologized for killing A.W. (according to the correction officer.) If the prosecution wants the jury to hear this, they will have to call the correction officer to the witness stand, IMO, unless Judge Gull is going to allow heresy testimony.

"but it was somewhere along the lines of he was talking to himself and he apologized for maybe killing A.W."

I'm sure the State will have no problem calling witnesses.

 

[Seattle1]

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen living in 8x12 prison cell under suicide watch and 24-hour video surveillance

The Westville prison warden provided very specific details about the cell where Allen is living and the accommodations he is offered.

www.wthr.com

The staff put other inmates outside his cell as “inmate companions”. This is absurd to me! If inmates want info on other prisoners for their own status / benefits why would anyone ever think this was a good idea?

It doesn’t surprise me then to learn RA is said to have made at least some of the long list of “confessions” to these “companions”.

State: Allen made 61 Confessions over 60 days – Judge rules jury can hear them all - Carroll County Comet

Sixty-one times Richard Allen allegedly confessed to killing Abigail Williams and Liberty German, Prosecutor Nick McLeland said during a 3-day hearing in early August. Thursday, attorneys learned those confessions will now be heard by a jury. Special Judge Fran Gull filed her order late in the...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Wow -- thanks. I've never seen anything like this before-- "companions" in ad-seg!. I noted the MSM is more than a year old and I believe he's since been Ordered by Judge Gull relocated to a county jail, location not disclosed. JMO

 

[shonyakay]

Sorry, I'm not following @photographer4. What is an "assigned companion" for a prison or jail inmate? Assigned by whom? I've long assumed RA is being held in ad seg/solitary confinement for his protection. JMO

Not OP but there was an inmate companion program at the prison RA was held at.
I think they were posted outside of his cell door. I don't think that they were allowed to have physical contact with him.

When he started displaying bizarre behavior they removed the inmate companions and posted guards there instead.

Edited: To say I didn't realize that this had already been answered by OP. My apologies.

 

[Melted]

How would RA have a role in the killings, yet, not be guilty?

I said I believe he “possibly” played a role