Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[FrostedGlass]

Sure

Like they will be able to say "hey someone must have been there messing with the phone in the middle of the night" which could help RA if he has an alibi for that time.

And maybe they can still look at the crime scene and speculate it was not the work of one man.

But IMO it gets hard to claim they were taken in a car to a secret location Franks style because the narrative that helped with all of that is no longer admissible.

MOO

As @Melted pointed out earlier, it's about time of death.
They are only using the car example (driving from home to the crime scene) to show she may not have been dead just because her tracker stopped tracking. IMO

 

[ClearAhead]

How was he 'cut off' from them when he had his own tablet which could call or text them any time he wanted to?


Yikes, that all sounds kind of 'murdery' doesn't it?

Maybe the D simply drew the incorrect conclusion RA was ‘cut off’ from his family members as it appears the Ds visits to Westville prison were also infrequent.

But yes I agree, if that sort of wild and ‘murdery’ behaviour is attributed to lack of contact with his family, Rozzi literally gifted the prosecution a very credible theory if RAs family members were also absent at the time of the murders. JMO

 

[katydid23]

As for your first question, if they were taken by car to somewhere, her phone would have stopped tracking her steps. When they were brought back and got out of the car, the tracker would have begin tracking her steps again.

But I don't think the tracker showed any of ^^^^ the above happening. The tracker stopped with the steps after 18 minutes. Then no more steps ever----so how would they go in a car somewhere and then be walked back to the heavily scrutinised crime scene, without the tracker counting more steps later?

Just for the record, Cecil was asked if he measured any of those steps and he answered: "No." He wasn't aware of an access road. The D has a hand-drawn map of where those steps could have taken the girl; it's an exhibit.

There is very little about this case that feels rational to me so I can't answer any of your other questions.

MOO

I think this case seems very rational and simple. BG corners 2 vulnerable young girls, who are in a remote spot, with no one else nearby. He forces them off the bridge at gunpoint, walks them down the hill, for 18 minutes until they come to a tucked away clearing. There he acts out his violent fantasies, until he hears a man frantically calling out the girls names. That is his warning to flee, so he throws some branches and leaves on top of his victims and scurries away quickly.

Not that complicated really. IMO....I don't think the jury will ignore that simple scenario and instead, go with a rag tag group marching them away for 10 hours, only to return on foot, to the very area where people are still searching with flashlights and driving around the perimeters searching for them---and then they hike the girls back in, they murder them right there, where the family and first responders are still looking for them. And the phone somehow finds its way back and under one of the deceased victims?

 

[katydid23]

As @Melted pointed out earlier, it's about time of death.
They are only using the car example (driving from home to the crime scene) to show she may not have been dead just because her tracker stopped tracking. IMO

When the Medical Examiner takes the witness stand, do we think they will use step tracker to estimate TOD? I don't. I think they will have the usual forensics data to estimate the TOD window. IMO

 

[Salah11]

There is no evidence they were taken away from where they were found.

All logic would have to go out the window when you consider the risks. Also, what did the perp do for 10 hours with the victims?

Why would they then take them back to where they were found if they could be ditched somewhere where there weren’t loads of people searching?

 

[FrostedGlass]

When the Medical Examiner takes the witness stand, do we think they will use step tracker to estimate TOD? I don't. I think they will have the usual forensics data to estimate the TOD window. IMO

I don't know; the P included that testimony for some reason. IMO
How accurate can TOD be considering the weather conditions?

 

[ClearAhead]

As @Melted pointed out earlier, it's about time of death.
They are only using the car example (driving from home to the crime scene) to show she may not have been dead just because her tracker stopped tracking. IMO

For this theory to have any legs, we have to assume the ME was either totally incompetent or completely negligent in not estimating a TOD via analysis of stomach contents, as is standard procedure. The difference is considerable - a few hours after the girl’s breakfast, between 2:30 and 3:30pm, or 14 or more hours later, beyond 4:30am at a point when digestion certainly would’ve been complete. Aside from that there’s rigor mortis and other bodily indicators that occur at certain stages after death.

As the autopsy couldn’t possibly have indicated a precise TOD (no witnesses), going by their track record it’s really not all that surprising for the D to mislead by claiming the autopsy doesn’t reveal a TOD.

JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

I don't know; the P included that testimony for some reason. IMO
How accurate can TOD be considering the weather conditions?

What testimony are you referring to?

 

[girlhasnoname]

And with the swamp of youtubers out there living on the DT's shenanigans for the past two years, they may have a shot at that. MO

I'm not worried, it makes no common sense and the jury will be looking at all the evidence presented not speculated and hypothesized about by the Defense.

RA=BG=Killer and I believe they will be able to find that is the case when all is said and done.

JMO

 

[statt#1]

Excellent point! What’s left that’s not listed?

In terms of socially unacceptable behaviors, I could imagine this guy engaging in public masturbation/exposure, disrobing/nudity, random outbursts, noises, and comments that are disturbing, eating non-food substances, head banging, saving/hoarding used toilet paper, self injurious/cutting behavior, purposeful regurgitation, eating bugs....I could go on. The reason I list these things is, in the psychiatric facility I worked in for 5 years, I've seen it all.

 

[shonyakay]

To me, it reads as a bit like a threat to hold jury members hostage if they don’t get their way.

jmo

It almost bordered on bribing. Imo.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I'll take a guess...hitting, kicking, spitting? Things that can get you tazed?

Ramming your head against the bars maybe?

 

[girlhasnoname]

It almost bordered on bribing. Imo.

Definitely has a little confrontational tone to it IMO.

 

[shonyakay]

They are going to question the TOD heavily at the trial IMO, the state is using the phones movements to create the TOD while there wasn’t one listed on the autopsy or medical examiner reports.

If they can bring reasonable doubt to the TOD they can create an alibi for RA and it would also break others alibis.

IMO

We don't know what all they have that could help pinpoint TOD. For instance stomach contents. LE states the girls' were killed between 2:30 and 3:30 p.m.
I'll bet they have evidence/facts to back up that timeframe. Imo.

 

[girlhasnoname]

The D is not denying RA’s battle with mental health. I’m not clear why they would state he was “cut off” from the moral support of his wife, mother and daughter. Their latest story just blamed his ‘solitary confinement’ as it was confirmed communication with his family was allowed. “grossly disorganized, delusional, paranoid and highly dysfunctional behavior”…..yikes, that’s quite an apt description of dependency. JMO

BBM

https://wgntv.com/news/indiana/richard-allen-reportedly-made-confessions-to-inmates-guards-attorneys-say-he-was-in-state-of-psychosis/

“The allegedly poor conditions he was kept in exacerbated Allen’s mental health conditions, according to his attorneys. According to them, Allen has “battled depression throughout most of his adult life.”….

Already suffering from a bona fide mental health disorder, and then having been cut off from the moral support of his wife, mother, and daughter, Allen was weakened to the point where he slipped into a state of psychosis plagued with grossly disorganized, delusional, paranoid and highly dysfunctional behavior. These behaviors were manifested through verbal confessions that he may have been drugged, verbal confessions to the double homicide (inconsistent with known facts about the crime scene) periods of not sleeping for days, paranoia, stripping off his clothes, drinking toilet water, covering himself with and eating his own feces, and many other socially unacceptable behaviors.”

BRADLEY ROZZI, ATTORNEY FOR RICHARD ALLEN

RA was cut off from family after his first confessions because they did not want him talking about that on a recorded line. KA and his mother would hang up on him or tell him that 'they' (being the DOC I guess) were just trying to mess with head.

I'd say RA's attorney's advised them not to take calls from RA during that time.

JMO

 

[Tealgrove]

I don’t understand why this whole discussion about the girls being moved and brought back has reared its ugly head again.

Common sense tells us that it is not even remotely possible for any of these theories to be plausible.

The terrain alone makes it impossible. Bringing bodies back to an active search area, parking somewhere and carrying/dragging two bodies down a steep slope etc etc., and not being seen or heard is beyond comprehension.

It’s neither possible nor plausible IMO.

MOO

 

[statt#1]

I don’t understand why this whole discussion about the girls being moved and brought back has reared its ugly head again.

Common sense tells us that it is not even remotely possible for any of these theories to be plausible.

The terrain alone makes it impossible. Bringing bodies back to an active search area, parking somewhere and carrying/dragging two bodies down a steep slope etc etc., and not being seen or heard is beyond comprehension.

It’s neither possible nor plausible IMO.

MOO

I totally agree. There is no evidence to support the notion the girls were taken off site in a vehicle, or any other mode of transportation, and returned. The entire discussion is moot.

 

[shonyakay]

And probably stomach contents too as the girls slept in and then had those banana pancakes that late morning.

Sorry, I wasn't finished reading the thread and started replying. I see you mentioned stomach contents first.

I do agree. They will be able to make an estimate on that alone. Imo.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I don’t understand why this whole discussion about the girls being moved and brought back has reared its ugly head again.

Common sense tells us that it is not even remotely possible for any of these theories to be plausible.

The terrain alone makes it impossible. Bringing bodies back to an active search area, parking somewhere and carrying/dragging two bodies down a steep slope etc etc., and not being seen or heard is beyond comprehension.

It’s neither possible nor plausible IMO.

MOO

Thank you for such a reasonable well thought out post @Tealgrove. Moving a deceased body is not an easy thing to do, it is literally dead weight (no distribution of center of mass), and not like they could be lifted over the shoulder or carried about easily, especially during those conditions.

JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

RA was cut off from family after his first confessions because they did not want him talking about that on a recorded line. KA and his mother would hang up on him or tell him that 'they' (being the DOC I guess) were just trying to mess with head.

I'd say RA's attorney's advised them not to take calls from RA during that time.

JMO

Yes RA was cut off by his family after he began confessing. But a situation that occurred ‘after’ can’t be the cause of it.

Regardless Rozzi is on record as stating RA ‘losses it’ if he’s cut off from his family. IMO that is not normal and RA obviously has mental health issues well beyond his ‘safekeeping’ at the prison. JMO