Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[ClearAhead]

Yep, D had the autopsy report, listed in the appendix document. Sure wish we did, too!

View attachment 531170

Yes I agree, the autopsy report will be a significant piece of evidence. As for the D and their dispositions, I think indeed it’s true they put all their eggs in one basket by wasting all their time disposing mostly investigators in support of their FMs and SODDI. Meanwhile the actual facts including crime scene evidence would be insignificant if they could raise doubt RA was guilty of any involvement. All that’s changed now, an example is how poorly they were prepared for the Ps blood spatter evidence which throws a kibosh to their storyline. MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Yep, D had the autopsy report, listed in the appendix document. Sure wish we did, too!

View attachment 531170

Do you know which document that was attached to? Is it one of these:

04/11/2024	Motion to Suppress Filed Motion to Suppress Statements Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 04/11/2024
04/11/2024	Memorandum/Brief Filed Memorandum of Law in Support of Defendant Allen's Motion to Suppress Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 04/11/2024

 

[Vern]

I posted in reference to this car theory yesterday, but it keeps being mentioned so I can’t refrain from adding some additional thoughts. My opinion, of course.

It is indeed true that if a phone is tracking steps, that will cease when riding in a car. But that is irrelevant here.

The notion of them being driven anywhere makes no sense IMO and is totally devoid of evidence.

If I were a juror on this case, I would be compelled to determine what is beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is for me completely doubtful that someone would first drive the intended victims away from the scene and then instead of killing them far away, bring them right back to the place where their families expected them to be, where Libby’s sister dropped them off and where people would first start searching for them when they were missing.

We know they died where they were found since that is where the evidence showed they bled out.

Is there evidence of tire tracks leading to and from the murder site? Why would a murderer, having driven them away, not only dispose of them where they were most likely to be found and also plant the phone instead of throwing it 100 miles away?

To me this is as likely as saying a helicopter or an airplane or a hot air balloon was implemented to whisk them away and then incredibly brought them back to kill them and leave them in the area where they were known to have been.

If I were inclined to cold-bloodily assault and murder two beautiful young girls, I would hope to not be so blatantly ignorant as to drive them away just to bring them back, when instead I could have driven their bodies hundreds of miles away to another state, or buried them elsewhere, or thrown them into a body of water.

Certainly just my opinion.

Even if so, the Defence is still stuck with the issue of explaining how the girls and the phone were returned to the bowl in the woods without detection by the many people still manning the trails overnight and without the phone logging a single step on the way back to that location. As far as I am aware, there is no airport-style moving sidewalk or escaltors (for either side on the hill down from the cemetary or from the driveway and up the bank to the body location) to get that phone back without logging a step.

And yes, an iphone's steps will still be counted when in airplane mode.

does the Health app count step in Airplan… - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

D-30 days to seeing justice begin for these girls!!

 

[ClearAhead]

Even if so, the Defence is still stuck with the issue of explaining how the girls and the phone were returned to the bowl in the woods without detection by the many people still manning the trails overnight and without the phone logging a single step on the way back to that location. As far as I am aware, there is no airport-style moving sidewalk or escaltors (for either side on the hill down from the cemetary or from the driveway and up the bank to the body location) to get that phone back without logging a step.

And yes, an iphone's steps will still be counted when in airplane mode.

does the Health app count step in Airplan… - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

D-30 days to seeing justice begin for these girls!!

Also they’re still stuck with getting RA off the bridge, not ordering the girls DTH.

Just my opinion but I don’t think the D would accomplish anything by presenting a convoluted and complicated theory to implicate more people being involved but still doesn’t clear RA. No point of it at all if RA’s still found guilty by the jury. JMO

ETA Without a SODDI, heck why can’t it be that RA ordered the girls DTH into his car beneath the bridge, then spent the afternoon with them somewhere, maybe his house, in the middle of the night brought them back to the same spot they were kidnapped from and viciously murdered them? IMO that’s a plausible explanation as to why he hasn’t outed the true murdering villain/s.

 

[Arkay]

Without a SODDI, heck why can’t it be that RA ordered the girls DTH into his car beneath the bridge, then spent the afternoon with them somewhere, maybe his house, in the middle of the night brought them back to the same spot they were kidnapped from and viciously murdered them? IMO that’s a plausible explanation as to why he hasn’t outed the true murdering villain/s.

IMO this seems unlikely, only because I believe some camera footage would exist someplace that shows his car going back and forth to his home, or elsewhere he may have driven. If the neighbors had Ring cameras back then it would also show the girls entering and exiting his house.
Also I believe the girls would have left DNA behind in his home, although the defense was desperate to quash the SW of his home.
Plus, I can’t imagine him bringing them back in the middle of the night from where they were kidnapped, when people were out there searching for the girls.

JMO

 

[m00c0w]

The main issue with the idea that the girls were moved because of the phone is actually the 4:33am text messages. We now know from testimony at the hearings that the phone was never turned off. If they were transported from the area, they would have had to remain in an area without cell reception and somehow navigate back to the area the phone was found in without triggering any step counters and also avoiding cell service. The entire premise just lacks any sort of real credibility when one looks at all the factors that would have had to occur for the state of evidence at the scene to be the way it is.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

This is perhaps even easier to understand with apple watch / garmin / fitbit etc

Say you are moving at a steady 5 kph walking speed - there is no acceleration for the watch to measure.

But now factor in your regular gait with arms swinging sharply forwards and then back relative to your centre of mass. There is now a sharp acceleration forward and deceleration backwards every second. The tech understands that as a step.

You can do this by sitting and swinging your arms with your watch or iphone - it will probably 'see' steps

So the problem for this theory is there are no more steps ever. So that requires device off - but where is the device off log event?

It's obviously much more likely the device was never off.

I do wonder if we will discover there is a device off log later in the morning before they were found (flat battery). And was the device found on or off?

The other thing is there may be onboard logged events between the bridge guy video and the 4am messages which indicate phone was on.

None of these things require any expert opinion - just think about how your own phone works.

MOO

Libby's dormant phone when it's battery was almost gone would "wake" to shutdown, wouldn't it? My Android's screen lights up before it powers off from lack of battery. Could that burst of awakening cause an undelivered text hanging in cyber space to see her phone and connect?

 

[ClearAhead]

IMO this seems unlikely, only because I believe some camera footage would exist someplace that shows his car going back and forth to his home, or elsewhere he may have driven. If the neighbors had Ring cameras back then it would also show the girls entering and exiting his house.
Also I believe the girls would have left DNA behind in his home, although the defense was desperate to quash the SW of his home.
Plus, I can’t imagine him bringing them back in the middle of the night from where they were kidnapped, when people were out there searching for the girls.

JMO

The entire scenario regardless of who’s the centre proves to me the D has indeed been ‘gutted’ if this is the best they can do. Besides, they overlooked the most critical piece, that theory does not get RA off that bridge. JMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I have no opinions one way or the other about any of the other stuff.
I was only talking about how step-tracking apps work.

Cecil said the only way her iPhone Apple app would track movement in a car is if the car hit a bump or something.

3 Day Hearing - Google Drive

drive.google.com

So if the girls were taken into a car shortly after abduction then how would LG’s phone continue to ping off the Wells tower? And since there is no evidence that the phone was ever turned off then wouldn’t it record her movements after taken to a 2nd location? Or returned to her their final location?

 

[sunshineray]

This is perhaps even easier to understand with apple watch / garmin / fitbit etc

Say you are moving at a steady 5 kph walking speed - there is no acceleration for the watch to measure.

But now factor in your regular gait with arms swinging sharply forwards and then back relative to your centre of mass. There is now a sharp acceleration forward and deceleration backwards every second. The tech understands that as a step.

You can do this by sitting and swinging your arms with your watch or iphone - it will probably 'see' steps

So the problem for this theory is there are no more steps ever. So that requires device off - but where is the device off log event?

It's obviously much more likely the device was never off.

I do wonder if we will discover there is a device off log later in the morning before they were found (flat battery). And was the device found on or off?

The other thing is there may be onboard logged events between the bridge guy video and the 4am messages which indicate phone was on.

None of these things require any expert opinion - just think about how your own phone works.

MOO

Libby's dormant phone when it's battery was almost gone would "wake" to shutdown, wouldn't it? My Android's screen lights up before it powers off from lack of battery. Could that burst of awakening cause an undelivered text hanging in cyber space to see her phone and connect?

 

[mrjitty]

Libby's dormant phone when it's battery was almost gone would "wake" to shutdown, wouldn't it? My Android's screen lights up before it powers off from lack of battery. Could that burst of awakening cause an undelivered text hanging in cyber space to see her phone and connect?

even an improvement in atmospherics could allow messages to come through. i am in a rural area and lose my data connection all the time even though the tower is close by. trees really play havoc with the signal. so then i suddenly get a run of messages on my phone from hours ago.

 

[photographer4]

Also they’re still stuck with getting RA off the bridge, not ordering the girls DTH.

Just my opinion but I don’t think the D would accomplish anything by presenting a convoluted and complicated theory to implicate more people being involved but still doesn’t clear RA. No point of it at all if RA’s still found guilty by the jury. JMO

ETA Without a SODDI, heck why can’t it be that RA ordered the girls DTH into his car beneath the bridge, then spent the afternoon with them somewhere, maybe his house, in the middle of the night brought them back to the same spot they were kidnapped from and viciously murdered them? IMO that’s a plausible explanation as to why he hasn’t outed the true murdering villain/s.

At this point, to me, RA is still just a guy who happened to be on the bridge that day - at this point, nothing we have been told by the State proves in my mind that he killed the kids. I'm really interested to know the State's exact timeline, and how they arrived at it! The time that KG dropped the kids off seems to have a wide window depending on which website / news article one reads as I've shown before in this link: Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192

Even ISP's own website still shows the kids as being dropped off at 1:00pm. That to me, makes it possible that RA was long gone, and the kids could have been on their way back to the drop off spot when things went badly. Delphi Homicide Investigation

I'd like to know how the State came to conclude that RA was the guy who killed these kids. Quite interested to see how this plays out.

 

[photographer4]

So if the girls were taken into a car shortly after abduction then how would LG’s phone continue to ping off the Wells tower? And since there is no evidence that the phone was ever turned off then wouldn’t it record her movements after taken to a 2nd location? Or returned to her their final location?

If the phone stayed at the site and the two kids did not... that might explain the absence of movement from the step tracker. MOO.

 

[ClearAhead]

At this point, to me, RA is still just a guy who happened to be on the bridge that day - at this point, nothing we have been told by the State proves in my mind that he killed the kids. I'm really interested to know the State's exact timeline, and how they arrived at it! The time that KG dropped the kids off seems to have a wide window depending on which website / news article one reads as I've shown before in this link: Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192

Even ISP's own website still shows the kids as being dropped off at 1:00pm. That to me, makes it possible that RA was long gone, and the kids could have been on their way back to the drop off spot when things went badly. Delphi Homicide Investigation

I'd like to know how the State came to conclude that RA was the guy who killed these kids. Quite interested to see how this plays out.

Notice the word ‘approximately’? ISP didn’t disclose the exact time for the longest while and repeatedly said they weren’t releasing all that they knew to protect the integrity of the investigation. Withholding the exact time no doubt assisted in vetting the enormous amount of tips. The public was also led to believe the pick up time was about 5pm when in fact it was revealed a while later that Libby’s dad arrived and raised alarm bells much earlier than that.

That should not be confused with trial evidence. Any statement prefaced with words such as approximately, maybes, believes or abouts, proves it is not factual. MOO

“On Monday, February 13th, at approximately 1:00 p.m.”

Something I always try to remember that somebody once said - the role of LE is to solve the crime, not to inform the public of the details. Although there’s usually a strategic reason to what they say or don’t say, it’s really none of our business to understand it.

 

[photographer4]

Notice the word ‘approximately’? ISP didn’t disclose the exact time for the longest while and repeatedly said they weren’t releasing all that they knew to protect the integrity of the investigation. Withholding the exact time no doubt assisted in vetting the enormous amount of tips. The public was also led to believe the pick up time was about 5pm when in fact it was revealed a while later that Libby’s dad arrived and raised alarm bells much earlier than that.

That should not be confused with trial evidence. Any statement prefaced with words such as approximately, maybes, believes or abouts, proving it is not factual. MOO

“On Monday, February 13th, at approximately 1:00 p.m.”

Something Inalways remember that somebody once said - the role of LE is to solve the crime, not to inform the public of the details. Although there’s usually a strategic reason to what they say or don’t say, it’s not really our business to know why.

I did notice this. I gave it some weight. But still, rather wide window imo. I'm interested in how they narrowed it down. I'm sure it will have to do with the witnesses who saw RA / whom he admits he saw. Its going to be a super interesting case to follow to see how each side tries to prove / disprove the timeline...

 

[m00c0w]

If the phone stayed at the site and the two kids did not... that might explain the absence of movement from the step tracker. MOO.

So the girls went to the site first, phone was dropped off, they walked to a car… somewhere… were taken away, something happened. And they returned to the exact spot of the phone in the middle of the night, killed the girls, put a shoe on top of the phone and then one of the girls on top of the shoe…?

If that’s how the D will try to present this, I feel pretty bad for RA. No chance at acquittal.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

So if the girls were taken into a car shortly after abduction then how would LG’s phone continue to ping off the Wells tower? And since there is no evidence that the phone was ever turned off then wouldn’t it record her movements after taken to a 2nd location? Or returned to her their final location?

I don't know about pinging, I don't know about turning off and on. I have no opinion on whether they left or not. Or how they left. There have been many theories about that but I never settled on one.

Again, my point is just because her phone stopped counting her steps is no proof that she was dead. I quoted Cecil's statement to make that point. The P can no longer use the the step counter to prove a timeline for their deaths. MOO

 

[Salah11]

So the girls went to the site first, phone was dropped off, they walked to a car… somewhere… were taken away, something happened. And they returned to the exact spot of the phone in the middle of the night, killed the girls, put a shoe on top of the phone and then one of the girls on top of the shoe…?

If that’s how the D will try to present this, I feel pretty bad for RA. No chance at acquittal.

JMO

Not forgetting the Muddy and Bloody individual Walking back to his car who just happens to be wearing the same colour hoody you can see the bottom of his the blue coat.

All purely coincidental

moo

 

[ClearAhead]

I did notice this. I gave it some weight. But still, rather wide window imo. I'm interested in how they narrowed it down. I'm sure it will have to do with the witnesses who saw RA / whom he admits he saw. Its going to be a super interesting case to follow to see how each side tries to prove / disprove the timeline...

Initially LE didn’t inform the public who dropped them off or who was supposed to pick them up. But obviously they knew that information from the minute the girls were reported missing. It’s not that LE didn’t know, they chose to withhold the specific information which they’ve entitled to do. Neither have they even yet informed the public of the precise location where the bodies were found, only by a general area, although they definitely know.

During a much later interview it was KG, not LE, who disclosed the actual time she dropped them off. This was well before RA was arrested. She was talking on her cellphone to her boyfriend when she dropped the girls off, wouldn’t be too difficult to narrow down the time based in that. Later still, it was BP who disclosed the pickup arrangements involving her son, Libby’s dad.

LE will testify about the evidence during the trial. All along they’ve revealed only as much as has been necessary and even that hasn’t been entirely straightforward. JMO

 

[m00c0w]

I don't know about pinging, I don't know about turning off and on. I have no opinion on whether they left or not. Or how they left. There have been many theories about that but I never settled on one.

Again, my point is just because her phone stopped counting her steps is no proof that she was dead. I quoted Cecil's statement to make that point. The P can no longer use the the step counter to prove a timeline for their deaths. MOO

I’m not sure the prosecution ever used the step counter to “prove” the timeline on its own. However, it is one more piece of circumstantial evidence that will likely show a pretty clear timeline. For instance, the phone not having recorded any other steps despite not turning off makes it incredibly likely it did not ever leave that clearing. Otherwise, how would it have gotten to its final resting spot?

Now, on the other hand, the defense can’t use the phone to really show much of anything one way or the other. They will have a hard time arguing the phone left the location since no more steps were recorded, and they will have a hard time arguing the girls left the murder scene but also returned to precisely the site where the phone was left.

JMO