Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[sunshineray]

The main issue with the idea that the girls were moved because of the phone is actually the 4:33am text messages. We now know from testimony at the hearings that the phone was never turned off. If they were transported from the area, they would have had to remain in an area without cell reception and somehow navigate back to the area the phone was found in without triggering any step counters and also avoiding cell service. The entire premise just lacks any sort of real credibility when one looks at all the factors that would have had to occur for the state of evidence at the scene to be the way it is.

JMO

You're absolutely right. IF the girls left the scene the phone would certainly connected to receive the text much earlier than 4:30am on the 14th. MO

 

[sunshineray]

At this point, to me, RA is still just a guy who happened to be on the bridge that day - at this point, nothing we have been told by the State proves in my mind that he killed the kids. I'm really interested to know the State's exact timeline, and how they arrived at it! The time that KG dropped the kids off seems to have a wide window depending on which website / news article one reads as I've shown before in this link: Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192

Even ISP's own website still shows the kids as being dropped off at 1:00pm. That to me, makes it possible that RA was long gone, and the kids could have been on their way back to the drop off spot when things went badly. Delphi Homicide Investigation

I'd like to know how the State came to conclude that RA was the guy who killed these kids. Quite interested to see how this plays out.

I think it's like that well-used adage. If you go to sleep and there's no snow on the ground, you wake up and there's 5 inches snow, even though you didn't see it snow you know it did. With Abby and Libby approaching the bridge while a witness puts RA on the bridge, she turns around walks a little bit away and passes the girls going to the bridge. I think RA was right there at the bridge with the girls. MO

RA said nothing about seeing either BB (approximately 50-ish feet away from that first platform). He said nothing about seeing the girls (2mins or less walking to where he was on the bridge). What are the odds RA is BG. Then Libby captures him on her phone, image and voice. MO

AJMO...RA put himself on the way to the bridge (time stamped by a witness he admits to seeing). RA puts himself on the bridge (witnessed by BB) BB put the girls heading to that bridge (very soon after she left it with RA on there). Libby's phone puts RA on the bridge approaching them and ordering them DTH. Seems obvious to me, it snowed. Again AJMO and I know there's move evidence to consider, to add.

 

[photographer4]

So the girls went to the site first, phone was dropped off, they walked to a car… somewhere… were taken away, something happened. And they returned to the exact spot of the phone in the middle of the night, killed the girls, put a shoe on top of the phone and then one of the girls on top of the shoe…?

If that’s how the D will try to present this, I feel pretty bad for RA. No chance at acquittal.

JMO

Well, that is one way it could have happened sure. Or... the kids go in one direction with someone and the phone goes in another with someone else (as a creative idea, not factual - speculation only).
Wasn't it that State's own witness who said at the three day hearings he couldn't say for sure an abduction happened (see screen shot and link below). So. Basically, we don't know what happened based on the phone alone at this point because even the state's own witness couldn't be sure they were even abducted. MOOO.

Adobe Acrobat

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[sunshineray]

I don't know about pinging, I don't know about turning off and on. I have no opinion on whether they left or not. Or how they left. There have been many theories about that but I never settled on one.

Again, my point is just because her phone stopped counting her steps is no proof that she was dead. I quoted Cecil's statement to make that point. The P can no longer use the the step counter to prove a timeline for their deaths. MOO

I don't think they were using it to prove, it's just another brick in the wall. We haven't heard from the ME yet and stomach contents may play an important part in the TOD. MO Trial will tell.

 

[ClearAhead]

Well, that is one way it could have happened sure. Or... the kids go in one direction with someone and the phone goes in another with someone else (as a creative idea, not factual - speculation only).
Wasn't it that State's own witness who said at the three day hearings he couldn't say for sure an abduction happened (see screen shot and link below). So. Basically, we don't know what happened based on the phone alone at this point because even the state's own witness couldn't be sure they were even abducted. MOOO.View attachment 531230

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

The state filed charges against RA alleging an abduction occurred which resulted in the deaths of the girls. Then it’s up to the jury to decide if he’s guilty BARD during his upcoming trial. The Sgt is well aware his purpose is to testify during an hearing about blood spatter evidence, not offer his opinion about a kidnapping. That portion of questioning is meaningless grandstanding by the D. Opinions/speculation don’t matter as they’re not facts, don’t let the D’s antics lead you to believe otherwise. MOO

 

[photographer4]

The state filed charges against RA alleging an abduction occurred which resulted in the deaths of the girls. Then it’s up to the jury to decide if he’s guilty BARD during his upcoming trial. The Sgt is well aware his purpose is to testify during an hearing about blood spatter evidence, not offer his opinion about a kidnapping. That portion of questioning is meaningless grandstanding by the D. Opinions/speculation don’t matter as they’re not facts, don’t let the D’s antics lead you to believe otherwise. MOO

I'm afraid you're thinking of Pat Cicero - the blood spatter expert. Not the same person I referred to - super easy mistake to make since their names are so similar! The guy I linked to is Sargeant Christoper Cecil.

Adobe Acrobat

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Delphi homicide suspect Richard Allen to be moved back to county jail

 

[Vern]

I don't know about pinging, I don't know about turning off and on. I have no opinion on whether they left or not. Or how they left. There have been many theories about that but I never settled on one.

Again, my point is just because her phone stopped counting her steps is no proof that she was dead. I quoted Cecil's statement to make that point. The P can no longer use the the step counter to prove a timeline for their deaths. MOO

Cecil wasn't there to testify about their ToD; he was there to testify about the phone and it's movements, when those steps stopped and the fact the phone did not move again after 1432hrs and that it was not turned off.

I find it extremely doubtful the Prosecution has, or will in the future, depend on the testimony of an individual who executed and analyzed the phone dump data to determine ToD of these two girls. They haven't done that to date.

They have medical experts and science for that.

D-30 ... onwards.

 

[ClearAhead]

I'm afraid you're thinking of Pat Cicero - the blood spatter expert. Not the same person I referred to - super easy mistake to make since their names are so similar! The guy I linked to is Sargeant Christoper Cecil.

Adobe Acrobat

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Delphi homicide suspect Richard Allen to be moved back to county jail

Yes thank you, I was thinking of the wrong person. But that doesn’t change things, LE or any State investigator can’t be expected to state an opinion during a hearing or trial while testifying under oath as to whether the accused committed a crime. What would be the point? That’s for the jury to decide.

 

[sunshineray]

Well, that is one way it could have happened sure. Or... the kids go in one direction with someone and the phone goes in another with someone else (as a creative idea, not factual - speculation only).
Wasn't it that State's own witness who said at the three day hearings he couldn't say for sure an abduction happened (see screen shot and link below). So. Basically, we don't know what happened based on the phone alone at this point because even the state's own witness couldn't be sure they were even abducted. MOOO.View attachment 531230

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

It sounds like in your speculative scenario Libby's phone gets abducted? And Cecil was testifying to what he knows from watching/listening to the full video/audio and other things. We've only seen 2-3 seconds and heard about 4? We've not heard about any texts, apps, online etc...Libby may have had active that day, outside of her step count. There may be more info to consider. Trial will tell.

 

[Melted]

The evidence points to them dying where they were found.

The rest defies logic and has zero evidence supporting it.

one or both of them being taken from the crime scene doesn’t = them not being killed where they were found

 

[statt#1]

Early on, I thought maybe they went downstream in a canoe, or possibly walked up Bridge Creek to I25 where a car was waiting, or, there was a 4 wheeler in waiting, or a van on that private drive that squirrel'd 'em away out of there.

I thought maybe they were at a local house, then a barn, then a shed, then over at the Indiana packers, then bicycle bridge road, then up and out of there through the cemetery, then up the hill and through the woods and back to the parking lot.

I thought maybe the searchers were in on it, then I thought maybe the searchers just didn't go over the creek that night, why would they? Then I considered, after that billboard campaign, the probability of a serial killer, most likely in fact. Then no, had to be someone local.

Then, they came out with the video of the dude on the bridge. The man that said 'guys, down the hill'. I guess there coulda been a car down on that driveway, waiting for 'em...to take 'em away from the bridge, out that driveway. I guess they could have returned somehow, maybe through the cemetery, or back up Deer Creek some how, in a 4 wheeler, or on foot.

But nowadays, I think it's real simple. "Guys, down the hill"....over the driveway, through the bottom ground there, across that creek, and back up to the CS. I bet either Abby, or Libby's pants, and/or shoes were wet.

Moo folks!

 

[photographer4]

It sounds like in your speculative scenario Libby's phone gets abducted? And Cecil was testifying to what he knows from watching/listening to the full video/audio and other things. We've only seen 2-3 seconds and heard about 4? We've not heard about any texts, apps, online etc...Libby may have had active that day, outside of her step count. There may be more info to consider. Trial will tell.

Given that the SODDI defence is out, are we expecting to hear anything about cell phone use prior to the girl's arrival at the bridge?

 

[sunshineray]

one or both of them being taken from the crime scene doesn’t = them not being killed where they were found

How'd the killer(s) get the victims back to the crime scene without being seen by the the mass of humanity out there searching for them?

 

[sunshineray]

Early on, I thought maybe they went downstream in a canoe, or possibly walked up Bridge Creek to I25 where a car was waiting, or, there was a 4 wheeler in waiting, or a van on that private drive that squirrel'd 'em away out of there.

I thought maybe they were at a local house, then a barn, then a shed, then over at the Indiana packers, then bicycle bridge road, then up and out of there through the cemetery, then up the hill and through the woods and back to the parking lot.

I thought maybe the searchers were in on it, then I thought maybe the searchers just didn't go over the creek that night, why would they? Then I considered, after that billboard campaign, the probability of a serial killer, most likely in fact. Then no, had to be someone local.

Then, they came out with the video of the dude on the bridge. The man that said 'guys, down the hill'. I guess there coulda been a car down on that driveway, waiting for 'em...to take 'em away from the bridge, out that driveway. I guess they could have returned somehow, maybe through the cemetery, or back up Deer Creek some how, in a 4 wheeler, or on foot.

But nowadays, I think it's real simple. "Guys, down the hill"....over the driveway, through the bottom ground there, across that creek, and back up to the CS. I bet either Abby, or Libby's pants, and/or shoes were wet.

Moo folks!

We all considered so many things throughout the almost 6 years before LE arrested the defendant. LE considered so many POI's but the only arrest for the murder of the girls was RA. Now we've heard some of the evidence and we've heard that the defendant has confessed 60+ times including details only the killer would know. I have faith LE got the right man, the killer. MO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Cecil wasn't there to testify about their ToD; he was there to testify about the phone and it's movements, when those steps stopped and the fact the phone did not move again after 1432hrs and that it was not turned off.

I find it extremely doubtful the Prosecution has, or will in the future, depend on the testimony of an individual who executed and analyzed the phone dump data to determine ToD of these two girls. They haven't done that to date.

They have medical experts and science for that.

D-30 ... onwards.

In the P's direct examination of Cecil, he clearly makes a point of what time the video ended and what time the step counter stopped. I'm assuming that he was attempting to form a timeline for their deaths.

3 Day Hearing - Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[sunshineray]

Given that the SODDI defence is out, are we expecting to hear anything about cell phone use prior to the girl's arrival at the bridge?

We might

 

[FrostedGlass]

How'd the killer(s) get the victims back to the crime scene without being seen by the the mass of humanity out there searching for them?

We don't have much information about how many people were out searching that night. In fact, IMO, there were probably very few, if any, searching on RL's property after his neighbors got done looking.

It's not a difficult task to hide in the woods at night from people, especially if a person was approaching from the east.

 

[Arkay]

But nowadays, I think it's real simple. "Guys, down the hill"....over the driveway, through the bottom ground there, across that creek, and back up to the CS

Splendid post.

Sorry to have to snip but I want to reinforce….for those who are saying it’s questionable as to whether or not A and L were actually abducted—-there is NO DEBATE that the man in the video told the girls to go down the hill.

Forcing them to go to a location against their will IS abduction.

Even for those who believe RA is innocent and everyone is just picking on him, there is no question that Abby and Libby were ABDUCTED. By someone.

The transcripts show that the experts are just being careful with their words, as experts are trained to be judicious when making pronouncements.

The gut punch that came in the Murdaugh trial was the video of dad being with the two victims at the dog cages when he swore he was not there.

IMO we will have to wait for the trial to see what will be revealed by LE.

All JMO

ETA: @statt#1 I still kind of favor my hot air balloon premise but your “speculation” is awesome. You should file a Franks Motion!

 

[FrostedGlass]

Early on, I thought maybe they went downstream in a canoe, or possibly walked up Bridge Creek to I25 where a car was waiting, or, there was a 4 wheeler in waiting, or a van on that private drive that squirrel'd 'em away out of there.

I thought maybe they were at a local house, then a barn, then a shed, then over at the Indiana packers, then bicycle bridge road, then up and out of there through the cemetery, then up the hill and through the woods and back to the parking lot.

I thought maybe the searchers were in on it, then I thought maybe the searchers just didn't go over the creek that night, why would they? Then I considered, after that billboard campaign, the probability of a serial killer, most likely in fact. Then no, had to be someone local.

Then, they came out with the video of the dude on the bridge. The man that said 'guys, down the hill'. I guess there coulda been a car down on that driveway, waiting for 'em...to take 'em away from the bridge, out that driveway. I guess they could have returned somehow, maybe through the cemetery, or back up Deer Creek some how, in a 4 wheeler, or on foot.

But nowadays, I think it's real simple. "Guys, down the hill"....over the driveway, through the bottom ground there, across that creek, and back up to the CS. I bet either Abby, or Libby's pants, and/or shoes were wet.

Moo folks!

Boy, does that bring back memories! We had just about every theory covered except for the one we have now.

It's kind of odd, IMO, that we haven't heard a word about wet clothing. I'm not a firm believer of the theory that he made them undress on the bridge side and carry their clothes across the creek.

 

[Salah11]

one or both of them being taken from the crime scene doesn’t = them not being killed where they were found

So then why take them away to then bring them back to kill them with the risk of loads of searchers in the middle of the night?

Sorry it just doesn’t make sense but then I don’t need to come up with ridiculous scenarios to get RA off I guess. MOO