Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[Vern]

I think it can be pretty accurate. The girls reportedly ate banana pancakes before they went to the trails. The ME would look to see if they had been fully digested or not, most likely. I don't think the weather would impact that much.

I don't think the weather was extreme conditions---just chilly as it was February. But they could probably tell ithe difference between if the TOD was 4pm vs 4 am , IMO.

Medical Exminers have been considering weather conditions and temperature into their ToD considerations for eons now. It's part of the science involved in their work. As is rigor mortis ...

Absolutely nothing different in this case; the science will tell the tale.

 

[photographer4]

I think it can be pretty accurate. The girls reportedly ate banana pancakes before they went to the trails. The ME would look to see if they had been fully digested or not, most likely. I don't think the weather would impact that much.

I don't think the weather was extreme conditions---just chilly as it was February. But they could probably tell ithe difference between if the TOD was 4pm vs 4 am , IMO. The difference between being deceased for 6 hours vs 16 hours?

Digestion may also be affected by intense stress, which surely the kids were under - I wonder if that may impact the investigation of their stomach contents?

"“When we’re stressed, our brain activates the sympathetic nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system is our flight-or-fight response: it prepares the body to protect itself against imminent danger by conserving functions that aren’t immediately needed for survival. That includes digestion. The emptying of the stomach is delayed, which can lead to a stomachache, indigestion, heartburn and nausea.”

How Stress Affects Digestion—And What You Can Do About It

When we're stressed out, our gut knows it--and suffers too. An expert shares tips to reducing stress and benefiting our digestive health.

www.henryford.com

 

[katydid23]

I don’t understand why this whole discussion about the girls being moved and brought back has reared its ugly head again.

Common sense tells us that it is not even remotely possible for any of these theories to be plausible.

The terrain alone makes it impossible. Bringing bodies back to an active search area, parking somewhere and carrying/dragging two bodies down a steep slope etc etc., and not being seen or heard is beyond comprehension.

It’s neither possible nor plausible IMO.

MOO

They will probably try to say that the girls were walked back to the crime scene, alive. But that is equally as ridiculous, imo. For what reason, would kidnappers, who got away safely with kidnapping 2 young girls decide to walk back into the same area, where everyone was looking for them?

It makes no sense. That was not some special, highly coveted religious clearing in the woods. Why would they need to return to that dangerous place to go back to? And it was pitch black---how would they march the girls back in with no lights? If they did have flashlights, someone would easily see the girls, they were all out there calling their names and searching. I don't think the jury will buy that scenario. IMO

 

[katydid23]

Digestion may also be affected by intense stress, which surely the kids were under - I wonder if that may impact the investigation of their stomach contents?

"“When we’re stressed, our brain activates the sympathetic nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system is our flight-or-fight response: it prepares the body to protect itself against imminent danger by conserving functions that aren’t immediately needed for survival. That includes digestion. The emptying of the stomach is delayed, which can lead to a stomachache, indigestion, heartburn and nausea.”

How Stress Affects Digestion—And What You Can Do About It

When we're stressed out, our gut knows it--and suffers too. An expert shares tips to reducing stress and benefiting our digestive health.

www.henryford.com

Yup. And ya know what else impedes the digestion process? Death.

The prosecution may say the foods weren't fully digested because of the murders.

If so, the D is welcome to try and say that it was really because the girls were so stressed out because they were walked to a nearby house and held for 10 hours and then hiked back in, hid the phone under their shoe, and were ritually sacrificed---but the pancakes didn't get digested because of the stress.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

KG said she remembered a vehicle at the Mear's Parking Area as well: "Kelsi remembers seeing a dark SUV, its rear windshield covered in decals, parked near the entrance where she dropped off the girls."

A new path

DELPHI — Kelsi German stops, the gravel beneath her feet ceasing its crunching. She gazes at the memorial honoring her sister and her sister’s best friend, both of whom died

www.purdueexponent.org

I wonder if any of the witnesses also recalled seeing a dark SUV in the parking lot as they were leaving the area? I also wonder if LE ever worked out whose vehicle that was that KG recalled seeing and if they spoke to the driver and or owner? Maybe it was also spotted on the HH store cam?

Could that be BB’s car. She arrived after RA and before KG and states she parked at Mears.
How would RA have seen it since he was already past the trailhead?

 

[Salah11]

So we have food maybe didnt digest due to stress

Taken away for hours on end and taken back in the dead of night with searchers out to murder them in a spot they was at 10 hours previous

Nobody in their right mind is going to believe such outlandish claims if the defense went this route.

MOO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I still can't wrap my head around keeping the gun and admitting to wearing the clothes the killer had on IF YOU WERE THE KILLER.

Either RA has serious mental illness or he's really dumb. It makes no sense.
MOO

I wonder if RA bought a new Carhartt jacket after his October 13th interview and deposed of the old one. That sure would be damning.
The gun would be a lot harder to swap out.
He definitely did what he could to not set off alarms. He did change his appearance quite a bit. But he didn’t go the extremes of selling off his assets.
All my opinion.

 

[iamshadow21]

I still can't wrap my head around keeping the gun and admitting to wearing the clothes the killer had on IF YOU WERE THE KILLER.

Either RA has serious mental illness or he's really dumb. It makes no sense.
MOO

I think he thought 'well, a lot of guys dress like me, and I didn't shoot them'.

Not knowing Libby filmed him, and he'd forgotten he'd double racked the gun, so there was a cartridge with identifiable tool marks on it literally between the bodies, untarnished, so they knew it was very recent, and so likely A Clue(TM).

Like I said, crime tv drinking game, they keep the clothing, they keep the weapon, they keep the shoes, they insert themself into the investigation early on in the guise of being 'helpful', they think they're too smart to swing for it. (Spoiler: They're not.)

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Medical Exminers have been considering weather conditions and temperature into their ToD considerations for eons now. It's part of the science involved in their work. As is rigor mortis ...

Absolutely nothing different in this case; the science will tell the tale.

Is there anything subjective about it?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

They will probably try to say that the girls were walked back to the crime scene, alive. But that is equally as ridiculous, imo. For what reason, would kidnappers, who got away safely with kidnapping 2 young girls decide to walk back into the same area, where everyone was looking for them?

It makes no sense. That was not some special, highly coveted religious clearing in the woods. Why would they need to return to that dangerous place to go back to? And it was pitch black---how would they march the girls back in with no lights? If they did have flashlights, someone would easily see the girls, they were all out there calling their names and searching. I don't think the jury will buy that scenario. IMO

Thank you, voice of reason!
Even if RA was returning the girls to a flat paved parking lot, it would still be quite a physical struggle. It was not of course, it was a very steep difficult terrain.
Flashlights would be absolutely necessary and, as you point out, and easily seen.
If the girls were already deceased, while they were being returned, RA would have to have transported two dead weighted bodies, one of which was nearly decapitated. The idea that someone could have run them in and left them in that terrain in the blackness is ridiculous.
More absurd is that the girls were alive and were killed at that time.
Common sense will prevail.

Opinion

 

[photographer4]

Yup. And ya know what else impedes the digestion process? Death.

The prosecution may say the foods weren't fully digested because of the murders.

If so, the D is welcome to try and say that it was really because the girls were so stressed out because they were walked to a nearby house and held for 10 hours and then hiked back in, hid the phone under their shoe, and were ritually sacrificed---but the pancakes didn't get digested because of the stress.

Do we know what time of day the kids ate breakfast? Was it the last thing they ate before they were killed?

I’m asking because, “Emptying gastric contents is another method used for estimating the post-mortem interval. Small light meals get emptied from the stomach within 1 to 3 hours, and the time of consumption, if known – along with volume and type of meal, can be used to estimate the post-mortem interval.[6] Therefore, the immediate post-mortem phase can be termed as the post-mortem interval between somatic and cellular death, within 2 to 3 hours after death, and usually denotes a lack of discernible changes in the morphology or histo-chemistry.” - Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf.

 

[shonyakay]

Then there is Richard Allen who obviously knows about the Mears Trailhead parking area since he stated in the tip narrative in the PCA that he noticed vehicles in the parking area as he was walking to the bridge. Even if somehow Richard Allen was able to walk back to his car without being seen after the crime except possibly by SC at 3:57pm, why he did not park at the Mears Trailhead area? Was that parking area full? Mears trailhead parking was closer and would have avoided the Hoosier Harvest store surveillance camera, especially if his original plan was to walk to the Monon High Bridge anyway. He would have been closer to his vehicle instead of possibly having it on surveillance camera too.

Snipped by me:
I think RA backed in and parked at the old CPS building to keep it away from being seen at the main trailhead parking area. His car there would be more noticeable to trail goers and more easily identified.
In regards to the Hoosier Harvest store's camera? Did he even know of it's existence?

 

[shonyakay]

Digestion may also be affected by intense stress, which surely the kids were under - I wonder if that may impact the investigation of their stomach contents?

"“When we’re stressed, our brain activates the sympathetic nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system is our flight-or-fight response: it prepares the body to protect itself against imminent danger by conserving functions that aren’t immediately needed for survival. That includes digestion. The emptying of the stomach is delayed, which can lead to a stomachache, indigestion, heartburn and nausea.”

How Stress Affects Digestion—And What You Can Do About It

When we're stressed out, our gut knows it--and suffers too. An expert shares tips to reducing stress and benefiting our digestive health.

www.henryford.com

The Defense team should give you a call. You have an excuse for everything. Imo.

 

[Spartygirl]

They will probably try to say that the girls were walked back to the crime scene, alive. But that is equally as ridiculous, imo. For what reason, would kidnappers, who got away safely with kidnapping 2 young girls decide to walk back into the same area, where everyone was looking for them?

It makes no sense. That was not some special, highly coveted religious clearing in the woods. Why would they need to return to that dangerous place to go back to? And it was pitch black---how would they march the girls back in with no lights? If they did have flashlights, someone would easily see the girls, they were all out there calling their names and searching. I don't think the jury will buy that scenario. IMO

I 1000% AGREE with you Katydid23 !!
No jury will buy this scenario.
WhoTH even makes up this crap ??

LE TESTIFIED that murders happened between 2:30-3:30 PM

Does the D-team really think that jurors will believe that deceased people can get up and walk ??

Or have they watched to many episodes of "The Walking Dead" and think Libby & Abby were zombies, following RA=BG into the woods ???

LE and Jerry Holeman Testified that Libby & Abby were murdered by 3:30 PM on Feb 13th
"In the afternoon ISP detective Jerry Holeman testified. He noted that Williams and German were killed between 2:30 and 3:30pm on February 13, 2017 on the property where they were found. Holeman also interviewed Allen just before his arrest."

Prosecutors and Richard Allen's attorneys clash over information sharing at Delphi murders hearing

The first of three days of hearings started with a delay, then motions to change where Richard Allen is held and how the defense gets information from prosecutors.

www.wthr.com

 

[shonyakay]

Do we know what time of day the kids ate breakfast? Was it the last thing they ate before they were killed?

I’m asking because, “Emptying gastric contents is another method used for estimating the post-mortem interval. Small light meals get emptied from the stomach within 1 to 3 hours, and the time of consumption, if known – along with volume and type of meal, can be used to estimate the post-mortem interval.[6] Therefore, the immediate post-mortem phase can be termed as the post-mortem interval between somatic and cellular death, within 2 to 3 hours after death, and usually denotes a lack of discernible changes in the morphology or histo-chemistry.” - Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf.

I believe the girls were up late that night into the early morning hours. I believe Libby corresponded with the Anthony Shots account at that time. I believe BP said the girls' got up late that day (Feb. 13). Libby's dad made her and Abby pancakes because that is what she wanted. Shortly after, Libby asked Kelsi if she would take them to the High Bridge. Imo.

 

[Vern]

D-28 until trial!

Justice for Abby & Libby