Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[shonyakay]

The investigators have actually said there was no data on LG’s phone that linked RA to the crimes. Would this not include the video / photos she took on the bridge that day? This makes me think they can’t be 100% certain it’s RA based on physical appearance / voice of the person in the video compared directly to RA.

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

View attachment 532094

I want to see their actual testimony declaring this, not the defense's claims of what their testimony contains.

Holeman recently testified that "Richard Allen" ordered the girls' down the hill.

 

[photographer4]

I

Frank's Motions are written with the goal of getting a search warrant or certain evidence thrown out of trial.( If I am understanding correctly)

"The defense will not be granted a hearing unless it can identify arguably reliable evidence supporting its claim that the person who signed the warrant affidavit intentionally or recklessly included false facts in the document. "

I seriously have lost count of the number of FM's filed by the defense , but I believe that it is 4.

After 4 attempts, I tend to believe that the Search warrant didn't have any false information.

I have to ask why the issues of DNA and phone records would be in question regarding the actual search warrant? Would that not be a separate issue for trial and not needed to obtain said right to search Allen's property?



If Liggett and Holeman were directed to ONLY speak to the evidence preceding the SW, then that would explain why ( at that time) there was no DNA or electronic connection. At least at that time.

Was this evidence found during the search itself, hence the desperation to get the search warrant tossed?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox59....-against-richard-allen-in-delphi-murders/amp/
https://www.tpatrialattorneys.com/franks-motion-federal-cases/

Interesting point I hadn’t considered. Maybe context here matters. We don’t know exactly what the investigators in question were asked as I don’t believe we have transcripts of their depositions yet (do we?). If they were asked about dna connecting RA to the scene before the execution of the warrant that could explain their answer. I don’t believe the state included any remarks about his dna at the scene in their application to get the SW A did they? Mooo

 

[Megnut]

But if they had dna from RA that connected him to the crime, would the D have been legally allowed to say no dna connects him to the crime scene? Apparently that’s what Jerry Holeman testified to per the franks 1:

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

Section V for those who want to read it.

ETA: Liggett also apparently testified to no dna etc. Attaching a screenshot for ease of access:

View attachment 532093

IMO this may be a classic case of asking the wrong person, purposefully. Just like the recent testimony of the phone expert. He was there to testify specifically to data pertaining to the phone. Not his job to speculate on elements of abduction or TOD. Not every LEO knows every element of an investigation. It would be like asking a technician who collected a swab what the results of subsequent testing revealed. Someone else will connect the dots at trial.

Besides, those answers -- as others upthread have suggested -- were true historically true but no longer are.

The Defense tried hard, and failed, to toss the search warrant. IMO that all but proves that connections exist, linking RA directly to the CS.

JMO

 

[photographer4]

I

IMO this may be a classic case of asking the wrong person, purposefully. Just like the recent testimony of the phone expert. He was there to testify specifically to data pertaining to the phone. Not his job to speculate on elements of abduction or TOD. Not every LEO knows every element of an investigation. It would be like asking a technician who collected a swab what the results of subsequent testing revealed. Someone else will connect the dots at trial.

Besides, those answers -- as others upthread have suggested -- were true historically true but no longer are.

The Defense tried hard, and failed, to toss the search warrant. IMO that all but proves that connections exist, linking RA directly to the CS.

JMO

I wonder if the D only asked the cell phone guy about the elements of the abduction because the State brought up that idea to the witness? moo

 

[somequestions]

In regards to the timeframe of the crime?
LE specifically gave the timeframe of 2:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. as to when the girls' were killed.
I am sure they didn't just randomly pick that timeframe.

It's possible RA did lie to DD when he says he left at 3:30 p.m., whether in his car or from the trails, because he knows a witness (SC) potentially saw him in disarray just right after that timeframe at 3:57 p.m.

However he didn't need to lie about the earlier timeframe (1:30 to 3:30 p.m.) in 2017 because he didn't know yet what Libby's phone would reveal.

I thought the same thing that maybe Richard Allen lied to the conservation officer, DD, in February 2017 because he thought he was spotted by SC. I think February 2017 because he would have come forward before that big press conference on February 22, 2017.

But then there is that phone information that was taken down during the tip narrative according to the PCA. If LE had investigated it more, could they have been able to tell if he actually left at 3:30pm versus after 4pm?

Maybe Richard Allen forgot the time he was at the Monon High Bridge trails and thought he left at 3:30 when really it was after 4pm?

 

[Vern]

D-25

 

[shonyakay]

I thought the same thing that maybe Richard Allen lied to the conservation officer, DD, in February 2017 because he thought he was spotted by SC. I think February 2017 because he would have come forward before that big press conference on February 22, 2017.

But then there is that phone information that was taken down during the tip narrative according to the PCA. If LE had investigated it more, could they have been able to tell if he actually left at 3:30pm versus after 4pm?

Maybe Richard Allen forgot the time he was at the Monon High Bridge trails and thought he left at 3:30 when really it was after 4pm?

IIRC there was a still frame of BG from Libby's phone that was released to the public on February 15th, 2017.

Or am I mistaken?

I do know when the still frame of BG was first released, no one knew where it came from at the time. People speculated it could have been from a trail camera etc.

I hope we find out what day RA gave his information to the officer. Here is a man (RA) who says he was on the trails during the same time frame that the girls' went missing and the only question at the bottom of the tip narrative was who were the three girls he saw near Freedom Bridge.

I can imagine that LE were inudated at that time I just don't understand the seemingly lackadaisical approach to RA at that time.

 

[katydid23]

I don't know about pinging, I don't know about turning off and on. I have no opinion on whether they left or not. Or how they left. There have been many theories about that but I never settled on one.

Again, my point is just because her phone stopped counting her steps is no proof that she was dead.

It is a pretty good clue that she was probably dead pretty soon after the step counter stopped counting.

First there was the video page of BG, then the audio clip of the voice saying 'Guys, down the hill' ...

...then the girls say 'GUN' .......

and the next evidence for the detectives to look at is the step tracker---they already know that a strange man seemed to follow them, order them off the bridge and down the hill, and he had a gun on them...

so at that point, the step tracker is telling them what happened next...they walked at gunpoint for 18 minutes....

So what evidence do they have that the girls were dead when the phone stopped counting steps?

---the bodies were eventually found, deceased' approximately 18 minutes away.
---Neither of the girls answered, or made, any texts or calls after that time
---the phone did not detect any more steps or movement
---Blood evidence shows the girls were killed at that location
---No witnesses saw the 2 girls leaving the area, but someone did see RA leaving the area
---they probably have a TOD window which corroborates the timeline

I quoted Cecil's statement to make that point. The P can no longer use the the step counter to prove a timeline for their deaths. MOO

I think they can use that step counter to corroborate their timeline. IMO

 

[sunshineray]

But if they had dna from RA that connected him to the crime, would the D have been legally allowed to say no dna connects him to the crime scene? Apparently that’s what Jerry Holeman testified to per the franks 1:

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

Section V for those who want to read it.

ETA: Liggett also apparently testified to no dna etc. Attaching a screenshot for ease of access:

View attachment 532093

Maybe it's not his DNA?

 

[FrostedGlass]

It is a pretty good clue that she was probably dead pretty soon after the step counter stopped counting.

First there was the video page of BG, then the audio clip of the voice saying 'Guys, down the hill' ...

...then the girls say 'GUN' .......

and the next evidence for the detectives to look at is the step tracker---they already know that a strange man seemed to follow them, order them off the bridge and down the hill, and he had a gun on them...

so at that point, the step tracker is telling them what happened next...they walked at gunpoint for 18 minutes....

So what evidence do they have that the girls were dead when the phone stopped counting steps?

---the bodies were eventually found, deceased' approximately 18 minutes away.
---Neither of the girls answered, or made, any texts or calls after that time
---the phone did not detect any more steps or movement
---Blood evidence shows the girls were killed at that location
---No witnesses saw the 2 girls leaving the area, but someone did see RA leaving the area
---they probably have a TOD window which corroborates the timeline


I think they can use that step counter to corroborate their timeline. IMO

I pulled this out of your post for focus:
"so at that point, the step tracker is telling them what happened next...they walked at gunpoint for 18 minutes...."

The accuracy rating for my mapping skills is at 0; do you know how far those girls might have walked in 18 minutes and a range of where that might have taken them?

 

[Vern]

It is a pretty good clue that she was probably dead pretty soon after the step counter stopped counting.

First there was the video page of BG, then the audio clip of the voice saying 'Guys, down the hill' ...

...then the girls say 'GUN' .......

and the next evidence for the detectives to look at is the step tracker---they already know that a strange man seemed to follow them, order them off the bridge and down the hill, and he had a gun on them...

so at that point, the step tracker is telling them what happened next...they walked at gunpoint for 18 minutes....

So what evidence do they have that the girls were dead when the phone stopped counting steps?

---the bodies were eventually found, deceased' approximately 18 minutes away.
---Neither of the girls answered, or made, any texts or calls after that time
---the phone did not detect any more steps or movement
---Blood evidence shows the girls were killed at that location
---No witnesses saw the 2 girls leaving the area, but someone did see RA leaving the area
---they probably have a TOD window which corroborates the timeline


I think they can use that step counter to corroborate their timeline. IMO

That makes common sense. Thank you!

 

[tlcya]

Maybe it's not his DNA?

Perhaps the DNA of a now deceased pet in the form of hair/dander?

 

[Vern]

Perhaps the DNA of a now deceased pet in the form of hair/dander?

Or of a relative livng in same household via the seized hairbands during the search (shades of Gilgo & Hueurmann in that one for me if that's the case) warrant??

Soooooo many possibilities.

Every day, we are a day closer to finding out the answer and that is a good thing!

 

[sunshineray]

Perhaps the DNA of a now deceased pet in the form of hair/dander?

Or possible a person he lived with?

 

[photographer4]

Maybe it's not his DNA?

If they don’t have RA’s dna at the scene then how do they reckon he killed them? Given the charges I imagine they probably don’t think he did but will get him because he probably helped in some way (eg: perhaps got them off the bridge). Moooo

 

[tlcya]

If they don’t have RA’s dna at the scene then how do they reckon he killed them? Given the charges I imagine they probably don’t think he did but will get him because he probably helped in some way (eg: perhaps got them off the bridge). Moooo

I'll bite, because his DNA may not be at the crime scene but DNA associated with him may be. And that pesky bullet from his gun is.

I absolutely do not believe that LE or prosecutors think he simply "helped in some way" and another individual or individuals are responsible for the killings. Based on his charges, I think LE and prosecutors are confident they have the right man responsible for the girls' deaths. MOO

ETA I am curious, are you implying that if RA's DNA is not at the crime scene it means LE can't believe RA killed Abby and Libby? Because that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Crime scenes are left without DNA from killers all the time and yet convictions can and do still happen. JMO

 

[photographer4]

I'll bite, because his DNA may not be at the crime scene but DNA associated with him may be. And that pesky bullet from his gun is.

I absolutely do not believe that LE or prosecutors think he simply "helped in some way" and another individual or individuals are responsible for the killings. Based on his charges, I think LE and prosecutors are confident they have the right man responsible for the girls' deaths. MOO

ETA I am curious, are you implying that if RA's DNA is not at the crime scene it means LE can't believe RA killed Abby and Libby? Because that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Crime scenes are left without DNA from killers all the time and yet convictions can and do still happen. JMO

I’ve no idea! Waiting for trial to see the case presented!

 

[tlcya]

I’ve no idea! Waiting for trial to see the case presented!

I only asked because the first sentence in your earlier post is presented as a question and I was curious about the thought process that prompted it. as to yours above - me too, I want to see and hear any and all evidence at trial.

 

[photographer4]

I only asked because the first sentence in your earlier post is presented as a question and I was curious about the thought process that prompted it. as to yours above - me too, I want to see and hear any and all evidence at trial.

It’s just me wondering out loud so to speak… they must have something really damning imo. Curious as to what!

 

[Vaderman]

they must have something really damning imo. Curious as to what!

62 confessions, perhaps.