Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #197

[sunshineray]

If someone provided a false alibi for RA could also be considered “involved”.jmo

Yes if something like a false alibi did occur, I'd hope we would hear about it at trial. We've yet to hear about any alibi.

 

[Vern]

At the point when he interviewed RA, the kids had already been found not just dead, but murdered. At the moment they were found dead, and it was suspected (or obvious) foul play, then imo, that should be an investigation limited to police. Maybe its done differently out there but this is the first case I've ever heard of with a conservation officer interviewing persons of interest when murder victims bodies are located. MOOOOO

I'd really like to see a link to the alleged fact that DD spoke with RA after the girls were found deceased.

I have a theory that he did not. I have that theory precisely because DDs follow up note in the "Tip Narrative' is "Who were these three girls" ... and not "who IS this guy who admits to being near the crime scene at the time of the crime?"

I think DD's follow up question was about the three girls precisely because they were still looking for the girls at the time and maybe these three girls did see them and may have info. Remember that RA also told DD during this 'tip' that he had not seen Abby & Libby while he was on the trails. DD had no idea there was a "Crime Scene" at the time RA approached him in the random parking lot to provide info and his 1330 - 1530 hrs timing for being on the bridge.

All IMO of course, but I am willing to reconsider my theory with a link to anything factual stating that DD was approached by RA after they were found as you've alleged.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

There was a search for 2 missing girls before Abby and Libby were found deceased.

Yes and attached is an article which shows that on the night of February 13, 2017. Citizens were being urged to call the Carroll County police department if they had any information about the missing girls.
DELPHI TIMELINE: Disappearance and murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams

News stations were already present the night Abby and Libby went missing and an outcry for help from the public was prominent.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Wasn't the verbiage something along the lines of "; other actors could be involved?'

This was near the beginning of RAs arrest?

Perhaps at that time, NMCL wanted to be absolutely certain that no stone was left unturned. Could it have been a way to allow the investigation to remain open?

Also, it occurs to me that involvement doesn't necessarily mean that anyone else actively participated in the murders, but potentially helped to cover it up.


JMO

Do you think it was just a vague notion rather than specific individuals? "Good reason to believe" sounds pretty specific to me. Just my opinion, of course.

McLeland said during Tuesday’s hearing that authorities “have a good reason to believe” Allen is not the only person connected to the killings.

Judge weighs whether to unseal records in teens' killings

DELPHI, Ind. (AP) — An Indiana judge said Tuesday that she will decide soon whether to unseal court records that led to a man’s arrest in the 2017 killings of two teenage girls, while a prosecutor urged the court to keep the documents sealed because others could be involved in the case.

apnews.com

Whatever the reason, it was the basis for the P directing the ISP to keep the arrest docs and others sealed.
Which was in violation of the Access to Public Records Act.

https://www.in.gov/pac/files/advisory/22-FC-157.pdf

 

[sunshineray]

Two little girls were missing.

LE was mobilizing to find them.

And most likely people could have been calling the Sheriff's office with possible helpful information to finding them. MO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Do you think it was just a vague notion rather than specific individuals? "Good reason to believe" sounds pretty specific to me. Just my opinion, of course.

Judge weighs whether to unseal records in teens' killings

DELPHI, Ind. (AP) — An Indiana judge said Tuesday that she will decide soon whether to unseal court records that led to a man’s arrest in the 2017 killings of two teenage girls, while a prosecutor urged the court to keep the documents sealed because others could be involved in the case.

apnews.com

Whatever the reason, it was the basis for the P directing the ISP to keep the arrest docs and others sealed.
Which was in violation of the Access to Public Records Act.

https://www.in.gov/pac/files/advisory/22-FC-157.pdf

I would only be guessing.
But, but from where we stand today (hindsight I suppose?)
I believe that the P was expecting to find that someone helped RA cover up the crime.

As to keeping the records sealed:

We don't have any proof at all that it was the motivation for stating other actors had some level of involvement.

If that's the case, the defense made sure that information found it's way into the public domain anyway.

It seems to be coming back to bite them ( the D) because now their original story will never come into the jury.

Sometimes, less is more. Too bad they just couldn't keep their mouths from running.


JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

I'd really like to see a link to the alleged fact that DD spoke with RA after the girls were found deceased.

I have a theory that he did not. I have that theory precisely because DDs follow up note in the "Tip Narrative' is "Who were these three girls" ... and not "who IS this guy who admits to being near the crime scene at the time of the crime?"

I think DD's follow up question was about the three girls precisely because they were still looking for the girls at the time and maybe these three girls did see them and may have info. Remember that RA also told DD during this 'tip' that he had not seen Abby & Libby while he was on the trails. DD had no idea there was a "Crime Scene" at the time RA approached him in the random parking lot to provide info and his 1330 - 1530 hrs timing for being on the bridge.

All IMO of course, but I am willing to reconsider my theory with a link to anything factual stating that DD was approached by RA after they were found as you've alleged.

My thoughts exactly. DD may’ve also added the narrative questioning who were the three girls in case 2 of 3 might’ve been the missing Libby and Abby.
JMO

 

[shonyakay]

I have been informed by another poster regarding the picture I was speaking of. It is not the same picture(s) as the Freedom Bridge girls.
Maybe this young lady will testify at the trial and then we can discuss it.

 

[Ravenmoon]

My thoughts exactly. DD may’ve also added the narrative questioning who were the three girls in case 2 of 3 might’ve been the missing Libby Abby.
JMO

That is interesting and I would have never thought about that! I will bet you are right!

 

[sunshineray]

Do you think it was just a vague notion rather than specific individuals? "Good reason to believe" sounds pretty specific to me. Just my opinion, of course.

Judge weighs whether to unseal records in teens' killings

DELPHI, Ind. (AP) — An Indiana judge said Tuesday that she will decide soon whether to unseal court records that led to a man’s arrest in the 2017 killings of two teenage girls, while a prosecutor urged the court to keep the documents sealed because others could be involved in the case.

apnews.com

Whatever the reason, it was the basis for the P directing the ISP to keep the arrest docs and others sealed.
Which was in violation of the Access to Public Records Act.

https://www.in.gov/pac/files/advisory/22-FC-157.pdf

There are certain usually public documents LE are allowed by law not to release during ongoing investigations. I remember this from the Rhoden Family murders case in Ohio. Is this not the same in Indiana?

"...records may be exempt from release as confidential law enforcement investigatory work product or CLEIRS".

Court sends suit vs. Pike County coroner to mediation

The Supreme Court of Ohio made the announcement Wednesday.

www.cincinnati.com

 

[Megnut]

Do you think it was just a vague notion rather than specific individuals? "Good reason to believe" sounds pretty specific to me. Just my opinion, of course.

Judge weighs whether to unseal records in teens' killings

DELPHI, Ind. (AP) — An Indiana judge said Tuesday that she will decide soon whether to unseal court records that led to a man’s arrest in the 2017 killings of two teenage girls, while a prosecutor urged the court to keep the documents sealed because others could be involved in the case.

apnews.com

Whatever the reason, it was the basis for the P directing the ISP to keep the arrest docs and others sealed.
Which was in violation of the Access to Public Records Act.

https://www.in.gov/pac/files/advisory/22-FC-157.pdf

How is it a violation if the P had just cause for requesting the seal?

In truth, we don't know if someone got a sweetheart deal. Maybe he did have help, unwittingly or otherwise, before or after, and that person helped LE. If it that person was identified after the arrest, it would all be under seal.

SPECULATIVE. For example, after his arrest, let's say someone came forward who helped him wash his car. Thought nothing of it at the time except maybe it was a little chilly day to be getting wet, maybe date stamped because of Valentine's day (synced memories), comes forward and is given immunity -- and can fill in details because of unknowingly assisted RA in destroying evidence.

Others may have been involved without being charged with anything and unknown to us because of the seal.

JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

After the first few days when tips began to overwhelm LE, the FBI implemented a tip system known as Pyramid. Unfortunately the original news report appears to have been deleted but whatever day it was implemented, someone would’ve had to also input the tips received up to that date. IMO this is where another person input DD’s tip and mistakingly filed it under RA’s address instead of his last name. JMO MOO

The Delphi Killings: Everything we know five years after Abby & Libby were killed

Five years ago Liberty German and Abigail Williams went for a walk in the woods near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi. They would never be seen alive again.

www.wrtv.com

“Every one of those tips and potential leads that are called in and emailed to the Delphi tip lines — more than 40,000 so far — is vetted by investigators.

Every tip received is entered into an FBI system called “Pyramid.” That system stores information like names, descriptions and motives so it can be cross-referenced with other tips locally and across the country to find any possible connections.”

 

[photographer4]

DD may have taken a tip in a grocery store parking lot because he working with LE to find missing children.
Again you’re using speculation and not a source. Interesting the FM doesn’t provide a date or time.
Please provide a source that states that the tip was taken after the victims were found deceased.

Ok, does anyone have a source that says that he spoke to DD BEFORE the kids were found dead? Because I do not. I have that RA contacted the "tipline". It seems to me they wouldn't create a "tipline" until the kids were found dead since they called off the search for the night.... so MOOO here... I checked, even teh original Probable Cause doesn't mention the date that he spoke to DD OR actually, that it was DD he spoke with. My source is Franks 1 as I linked. Its clear he called a tipline. Anyone got one to say when that tipline was created? I'm out of time for this... so MOOOOOO he called after the kids were found dead.

 

[photographer4]

Yes and attached is an article which shows that on the night of February 13, 2017. Citizens were being urged to call the Carroll County police department if they had any information about the missing girls.
DELPHI TIMELINE: Disappearance and murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams

News stations were already present the night Abby and Libby went missing and an outcry for help from the public was prominent.

Ah ok, interesting! So, possibly he did call BEFORE the kids were found dead. Ty.

 

[ClearAhead]

How is it a violation if the P had just cause for requesting the seal?

In truth, we don't know if someone got a sweetheart deal. Maybe he did have help, unwittingly or otherwise, before or after, and that person helped LE. If it that person was identified after the arrest, it would all be under seal.

SPECULATIVE. For example, after his arrest, let's say someone came forward who helped him wash his car. Thought nothing of it at the time except maybe it was a little chilly day to be getting wet, maybe date stamped because of Valentine's day (synced memories), comes forward and is given immunity -- and can fill in details because of unknowingly assisted RA in destroying evidence.

Others may have been involved without being charged with anything and unknown to us because of the seal.

JMO

And page 8 of the PCA has never been publicly released as I recall.

I’ve considered the possibility that LE may’ve indeed received a tip pointing toward RA, which is still sealed at this time. Then when Pyramid was searched using RA’s full name and address DD’s interview was easily located. Just a theory, MOO.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Ok, does anyone have a source that says that he spoke to DD BEFORE the kids were found dead? Because I do not. I have that RA contacted the "tipline". It seems to me they wouldn't create a "tipline" until the kids were found dead since they called off the search for the night.... so MOOO here... I checked, even teh original Probable Cause doesn't mention the date that he spoke to DD OR actually, that it was DD he spoke with. My source is Franks 1 as I linked. Its clear he called a tipline. Anyone got one to say when that tipline was created? I'm out of time for this... so MOOOOOO he called after the kids were found dead.

Tip line set up; search at Delphi home​

February 16, 2017​

Police set up a tip line for information in the case. In the evening, state police search a home in Delphi. No arrests are made.

https://cbs4indy.com/the-delphi-murders-an-interactive-timeline/#:~:text=February%2016%2C%202017,search%20a%20home%20in%20Delphi.

 

[FrostedGlass]

How is it a violation if the P had just cause for requesting the seal?

In truth, we don't know if someone got a sweetheart deal. Maybe he did have help, unwittingly or otherwise, before or after, and that person helped LE. If it that person was identified after the arrest, it would all be under seal.

SPECULATIVE. For example, after his arrest, let's say someone came forward who helped him wash his car. Thought nothing of it at the time except maybe it was a little chilly day to be getting wet, maybe date stamped because of Valentine's day (synced memories), comes forward and is given immunity -- and can fill in details because of unknowingly assisted RA in destroying evidence.

Others may have been involved without being charged with anything and unknown to us because of the seal.

JMO

I posted the link regarding the violation. I'll post this paragraph in case the link won't open for you.
I'm also really curious about the part I emphasized in red.

https://www.in.gov/pac/files/advisory/22-FC-157.pdf

3. The role of the prosecutor and judiciary in documenting arrests
ISP also cites the local prosecutor and presiding judge as factors in the delay. While that matter is being addressed in other opinions, it is notable that APRA’s daily log requirement for law enforcement is not a judicial record. As a result, the daily log is mutually exclusive from any court record over which judicial officers have purview. The daily log statute applies to law enforcement agencies in the executive branch of government. It is an affirmative duty that cannot be bargained, pled, or motioned away through a court procedure. This office remains convinced that much of the consternation regarding public access in this case is much of the government’s own doing. Simply put, the law enforcement agencies at play could have anticipated an onslaught of requests for the arrest information and prepared accordingly instead of keeping the public in the dark for several days until they arranged a more convenient method of disseminating information.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Tip line set up; search at Delphi home​

February 16, 2017​

Police set up a tip line for information in the case. In the evening, state police search a home in Delphi. No arrests are made.

https://cbs4indy.com/the-delphi-murders-an-interactive-timeline/#:~:text=February%2016%2C%202017,search%20a%20home%20in%20Delphi.

Still doesn’t prove that RA spoke to DD after the girls were found deceased.
As I showed in an earlier post there was a public outcry on the evening of 2/13 that any individuals with knowledge of the whereabouts of Abby and Libby or any related info call Carroll County Police Department.
The Franks is the only document that infers that RA called the tip line. The Franks does not provide a date or time to support what is being speculated here.
And the franks did not hold up under scrutiny.

All my opinion.

 

[photographer4]

6 mn 39

He says maybe he didn't see it. ETA "maybe it was hidden where I couldn't see it."

You made it further in than I did! I took my quote from starting around the 4:35 mark. About the CPS car, I believe he says he never saw it at 4:52 mark - but just going off the transcripts so who knows. I think this is the interview that had two segments. Not sure if the guy called back another time and it was added to some other clip or what - so maybe he said things differently later in the video? Either way...I think we're both correct. MOOO

 

[m00c0w]

Such a prime POI that when he called the tip line, they sent DD, not even police officer, but a conservation officer to take his information. At a grocery store. Not even at the police station. So prime a POI, the person who met with him thinks he took a recording - but as of last Sept (Franks 1, linked by me in a post above)... he couldn't locate.

2. Its not just that RA can't get himself off that bridge - its that LE can't place anyone ON that bridge (or at the south end where the words DTH were spoken). So I go back to this - a man working for pest control had called Grey Hughes to discuss that he had seen a car parked NEAR the CPS building which was there when he arrived about 8:45am, and there when he left around 2:15pm.

A friend of his saw the same vehicle "on the other side " at about 3:30pm. He saw officers and decided to give them some tips. He asked the officer: "Why was the time on this vehicle reported between noon and five? Well, I didn't know that there was another vehicle and he said it was parked at that CPS building backed in to where they couldn't see the license plate". The caller noted he never saw that CPS car when he was there. BUT:

What made police automatically discount the car along the side of the road in the correct times as being of any interest in this crime? Before even investigating it, they seemed disinterested and more concerned with the car at CPS.... (probably because it was backed in). But my point is - they discounted this tip without even investigating it seems! This makes me wonder, did LE have tunnel vision about the CPS car and then ignore any evidence that it had nothing to do with the crime?

(its an 8 minute video) and I sure would like to know - how did police automatically discount this info in favour of the CPS car? MOO.

1. Conservation officers are literally sworn law enforcement officers, able to conduct investigations and effect arrests. You make it sound like DD was just some dude whose job was looking for forest fires and handing out maps or something. He was, in fact, a law enforcement officer. It makes sense that they were using whoever was available.

2. You talk a lot about eyewitnesses and how they're fallible, open to suggestion, etc... I'm not sure why this person (who it's not even clear is talking about the right day to begin with...) is so much more trustworthy. As far as I can tell, his statements haven't been corroborated independently (he says his friend saw the same thing, but that's all coming from the same single source), while the other witnesses have at least some commonalities with each other. That, plus RA says he parked next to an old building, and that's pretty much the only old building that was there that fits his described activities (along with camera footage backing it up)... I don't find this guy's testimony to be super convincing that everyone else is wrong and this one person is the actual true witness.

JMO