Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #197

[justtrish]

Hi all, been away for a bit. This is what I think went down. Richard Allen was brought into LE's radar by someone. This is what inspired LE to go over all the tips, there may have been something filed incorrectly. I don't remember if it was ever confirmed exactly how or what was filed incorrectly.

Not certain if RA was on their POI list or not all this time. It could have been a friend, relative, online acquaintance, or a person that interviewed RA prior. I do believe it was some type of evidence that led LE to RA first.

Yes, I also think this! RA came forward very early on and we don't know exactly when, but it's my opinion that it was very likely before the girls bodies were found. He could then tell people that he was there that day walking and didn't see anything and he even talked to LE to tell them what he knew. Those people he might have talked to about this would then assume he was ruled out or that he was just being the helpful guy who happened to be out walking that day. Maybe over time his behavior was suspicious enough that they started to think he could be BG.. BUT he must not be because he came forward and he hasn't been arrested right so they put it aside and carried on with life. I could absolutely see a scenario where someone called in and said this guy RA has changed his behavior and his appearance has shifted. Insert whatever other things they noticed here... AND then they say but he came forward and talked to police so I assume he was cleared..

Well that would likely make LE go back to the beginning and starting looking at anyone they talked to early on and looking for a report that could have came from someone named RA.. then they find the tip, but it had been misfiled.

 

[dalsglen]

I am wondering if it’s his daughter that saw the change in him and is now working for the prosecution. It won’t be long before we find out who the prosecution have lined up.

Moo

I was thinking this last night when there was the chat on whether someone gave a tip to l.e. Did she tip him in?

 

[sunshineray]

The Wabash river search was all over the news shortly before they brought RA in to question him.

I think in light of all of the talking about the case at the time, RA talked to somebody close to him about this case and this person then went to the police. That is my theory.

And IIRC the search of KAK family members fire pit was shortly after the river search and right before RA being brought in for questioning. Just all very curious. I think that AutoZone interview was also in that mix, date-wise?

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

Once the girls saw a person crossing over I'd think they would feel they had to wait to start crossing back. The width and condition of the bridge wouldn't bode well for people walking by each other. MO

So as you say the girls really had no option but to continue to the end of the bridge even if they hadn’t intended to, maybe hoping BG would turn around by then. MOO

RA told his wife that if his situation became too much for her to handle to let him know. He said he'd tell LE everything they wanted to know.

If he knew everything LE wanted to know wouldn’t that imply he was BG because how else would he know?

Also, what about Abby’s and Libby’s families? When it became too much for them was he willing to make the same decision to spare them the grief, pain and need for full answers and closure? It has been 7 years, they lost their beloved daughters, granddaughters, sisters, friends and future dreams and hopes surrounding them. They’re done forever. No parent or grandparent should have to bury a child. Could he not see their murders and subsequent grief as something too much to handle, to suffer or was inconsequential? He could empathize with his wife but not them?

Why is he putting decision making power on his wife? He didn’t need her permission or authority to commit the crime. But now he is putting the decision on taking responsibility and accountability on her? It likes he wants her to bare part of the burden of the consequences and accountability for his crimes even if she did not commit them nor was involved. If I was his wife I would say screw that. You didn’t need me to commit this evil act. He wasn’t thinking about her, her community, Libby, Abby, their friends and family who are part of it when he brutally murdered them and caused widespread grief, terror and mistrust throughout Delphi. It was his commanding voice, not hers, that ordered them against their will down the hill so why not use that same atrocious commanding persona he had then to do something so atrocious to confess to LE and the legal parties involved everything he knows and has done? If he doesn’t fully confess he rather put the fault on his wife than his own fault. Her approval was not his end all be all with power over him. Just look at the decisions he made and crimes and horror he committed without it or her awareness?

I’ve taught thousands of 14-year old girls, besides the girls I’ve raised, and genuinely I think girls would be startled and anxious with this guy lumbering toward them, rather than mocking him.

I always thought early on when the BG video was first aired how rude it seemed just for him to be walking across the bridge knowing that Abby and Libby have to walk back across. Like seriously dude, the bridge is not going anywhere but they are since they have walk it again. And obviously they are uncomfortable walking past him since they huddle towards the further end of the bridge from him but instead of stopping at the platform so that they could cross he keeps walking. Like what’s the rush? You, unlike Abby, have clearly walked the bridge before based on your steady pace, you are not even walking the view since you barely looked at it so what at the end that you clearly needed to get to? Were there not enough twigs on the other side? Did you think you were going to catch a train while you up there and thought maybe Abby and Libby were somehow at the correct gate? Likely no. Instead IMO, his breach in etiquette, being just the three of them on the walk with two hindered from going across and determined walk to seemingly a dead end helped further raised alarm bells in their head that his target was likely them.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I hope we get some very impartial, consistent and comprehensive reporting on the trial. My understanding is that reporters can’t report or tweet during the trial while in the courtroom, but we will get insights at breaks perhaps and end of day wrap-ups.

That’s the way it was done at the Kelsey Berreth trial.
It wasn’t ideal, but it worked fine because the reporting was excellent. One reporter even went over everything in the trial at night on social media. No spin.
I have less confidence that will be the case here. Actual local reporters have taken a backseat to social media voices. I don’t expect the defense apologists will just stand down and suddenly report impartially. They will be striving to have the loudest voice I’m sure.
We all need to be very careful picking our sources.

 

[Salah11]

That’s the way it was done at the Kelsey Berreth trial.
It wasn’t ideal, but it worked fine because the reporting was excellent. One reporter even went over everything in the trial at night on social media. No spin.
I have less confidence that will be the case here. Actual local reporters have taken a backseat to social media voices. I don’t expect the defense apologists will just stand down and suddenly report impartially. They will be striving to have the loudest voice I’m sure.
We all need to be very careful picking our sources.

Yes I want impartial reporting considering we are relying on them to report the truth.

 

[sunshineray]

If he knew everything LE wanted to know wouldn’t that imply he was BG because how else would he know?

Also, what about Abby’s and Libby’s families? When it became too much for them was he willing to make the same decision to spare them the grief, pain and need for full answers and closure? It has been 7 years, they lost their beloved daughters, granddaughters, sisters, friends and future dreams and hopes surrounding them. They’re done forever. No parent or grandparent should have to bury a child. Could he not see their murders and subsequent grief as something too much to handle, to suffer or was inconsequential? He could empathize with his wife but not them?

Why is he putting decision making power on his wife? He didn’t need her permission or authority to commit the crime. But now he is putting the decision on taking responsibility and accountability on her? It likes he wants her to bare part of the burden of the consequences and accountability for his crimes even if she did not commit them nor was involved. If I was his wife I would say screw that. You didn’t need me to commit this evil act. He wasn’t thinking about her, her community, Libby, Abby, their friends and family who are part of it when he brutally murdered them and caused widespread grief, terror and mistrust throughout Delphi. It was his commanding voice, not hers, that ordered them against their will down the hill so why not use that same atrocious commanding persona he had then to do something so atrocious to confess to LE and the legal parties involved everything he knows and has done? If he doesn’t fully confess he rather put the fault on his wife than his own fault. Her approval was not his end all be all with power over him. Just look at the decisions he made and crimes and horror he committed without it or her awareness?


I always thought early on when the BG video was first aired how rude it seemed just for him to be walking across the bridge knowing that Abby and Libby have to walk back across. Like seriously dude, the bridge is not going anywhere but they are since they have walk it again. And obviously they are uncomfortable walking past him since they huddle towards the further end of the bridge from him but instead of stopping at the platform so that they could cross he keeps walking. Like what’s the rush? You, unlike Abby, have clearly walked the bridge before based on your steady pace, you are not even walking the view since you barely looked at it so what at the end that you clearly needed to get to? Were there not enough twigs on the other side? Did you think you were going to catch a train while you up there and thought maybe Abby and Libby were somehow at the correct gate? Likely no. Instead IMO, his breach in etiquette, being just the three of them on the walk with two hindered from going across and determined walk to seemingly a dead end helped further raised alarm bells in their head that his target was likely them.

It made them nervous I'm sure, feeling trapped because they were surround by private property , the trail ended. They were just kids, never thinking they were to be kidnapped at gunpoint </3

As far as RA telling his wife (paraphrasing) if it all got to be too much for her he'll confess everything to LE, just let me know hon. That's a major incriminating statement made to his wife, IMO. Why he needed to put the decision in her hands, I think ISP Harshman's testimony gave us the answer. (Paraphrasing) RA wanted his family's forgiveness for what he'd done and their continued love in spite of it. I think that statement was the beginning of that struggle for him. Wasn't RA also diagnosed with a dependency issue? Was that mentioned in Dr. Wala's testimony?

 

[shonyakay]

According to those who attended the July/August hearings, Baldwin turned to RA's mother and wife and told them about the testimony that was about to come up about the girls' injuries. They then left the courtroom.

Imo that corroborates RA's confession that he did not want his family to see what he had done.

If they (RA's family) do this at the trial the jurors will notice this and will probably come to the same conclusion.

 

[Arkay]

It was his commanding voice, not hers, that ordered them against their will down the hill so why not use that same atrocious commanding persona he had then to do something so atrocious to confess to LE and the legal parties involved everything he knows and has done?

My presumption would be that with the girls, it was a) something he WANTED to do and b) HE had the power in that situation.

Whereas with LE, it is a) something he does NOT want to do and b) he is now the one WITHOUT the power.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

It isn't lost on me. Alongside Abby, Libby's name is Liberty.

RA is on trial, accused of murdering Abby and Liberty. But, because of his actions, his liberty (as recognized in the Constitution) is in question.

He had no problem destroying hers. And Abby's. Life. Liberty. Their pursuits of happiness. Over the course of decades. 60, 70, 80 more years for each of them. Cut short by an individual wielding a blade and no

There's a (civil) price to pay for that. Loss of liberties, IMO LWOP. LWOP x 2.

There's a spiritual price too -- IMO that's been decided. He sold his soul. Icky, sticky, yucky soul.

One thing he CANNOT do --the depth of his depravity can steal nothing more Abby and Libby.

He blackens his own soul, not theirs.

JMO

 

[susane7]

I was a little concerned listening to this because Mr. Politan and the guest experts seemed to think RA won't be getting a fair trial because of the judge's rulings and that the crazy theories and suspects of the defense were legitimate. Then they got to the part about the judge ruling no cameras in the courtroom during RA's trial. They seemed to think it was a radical and unusual ruling for the judge to make. In reality, its a common ruling these days when it comes to sensational murder cases that have received extensive coverage on tv and social media.

There are zillions of social media "influencers"/s out there trying to get rich on sensational coverage of attention grabbing murders and trials. It's more difficult than ever to avoid defense attorneys attempting to taint jury pools and jurors once trials are underway. Jury nullification is a huge risk when too much media and social media is involved.

I noticed during the trial of George Wagner IV for the Rhoden Family murders that so many reporters and "influencers" were suddenly pushing fake conspiracy theories claiming to exonerate the defendant. It looks like the same thing is going to happen for RA's trial. My theory is that tv shows, you tubers, etc. take aggressive stands defending killers because it gets more clicks, raises more revenue.

Vinnie Politan seems to care only about sensacionalist and what give more views and I think Barbara is on the "Ron Logan did it" train.

I hate that nowadays it becames common made documentaries defense driven years after the conviction of someone and only with the side of the defense (especially when the evidence is circunstancial). Then people watch the documentaries, believe in it and start to proclaim and fighting for someone's innocence without listening the other side or looking at the original court files. Adnam Syed, Kendrick Jonhson (the guys that the family blame have alibis and the documentary didn't say that), Scott Peterson, Steven Avery etc. I think it is a travesty for justice. If RA is convicted, I can sen years later a documentary about the "odinists did it" without saying the guys have alibis.

 

[Purdue19]

That’s the way it was done at the Kelsey Berreth trial.
It wasn’t ideal, but it worked fine because the reporting was excellent. One reporter even went over everything in the trial at night on social media. No spin.
I have less confidence that will be the case here. Actual local reporters have taken a backseat to social media voices. I don’t expect the defense apologists will just stand down and suddenly report impartially. They will be striving to have the loudest voice I’m sure.
We all need to be very careful picking our sources.

Agreed...IMO Angela Ganote will be a good source during this trial.

 

[sunshineray]

Vinnie Politan seems to care only about sensacionalist and what give more views and I think Barbara is on the "Ron Logan did it" train.

I hate that nowadays it becames common made documentaries defense driven years after the conviction of someone and only with the side of the defense (especially when the evidence is circunstancial). Then people watch the documentaries, believe in it and start to proclamin and fighting for someone's innocence without listening the other side or looking at the original court files. Adnam Syed, Kendrick Jonhson (the guys that the family blame have alibis and the documentary didn't say that), Scott Peterson, Steven Avery etc. I think it is a travesty for justice. If RA is convicted, I can sen years later a documentary about the "odinists did it" without saying the guys have alibis.

Because of the defense's needed to influence prospective jurors, while under a gag order, with the FM...those men, who have alibis will always be the men who were accused of killing two young girls. But it was just zealous lawyers defending their client, so it's acceptable. Not IMO. But it's just one questionable thing this defense has seemingly gotten away with, also JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Agreed...IMO Angela Ganote will be a good source during this trial.

I also think The Murder Sheet will give an honest accounting to us. I just wish someone would employ a stenographer to take shorthand so we can read the actually testimony, questions and answers. A pipe dream I suppose.

 

[Megnut]

6 minutes.

In 6 minutes, everything changed.

2:07. Abby, on the bridge. Snapchat photo. Perhaps the FBI analysts could determine just exactly where Libby was standing when she took that photo, whether by GPS data or crime scene reconstruction.

We don't know where BG was. He wasn't on the platform. (Unless.... unless LE and a lot of people know he was in the photo and the FBI blurred him out before releasing the photo. It was important to LE IMO to hold back from naming BG as the murderer at first in the hopes that he himself or others would tip him as a witness not the perpetrator. So maybe?)

What we don't know, but the 47 seconds will undoubtedly show, is where the girls were when they encountered BG prior to AW asking if he was behind her, and whether that occurred on the bridge itself. Was he on the platform as they approached and they waited until he exited to begin? Did he say something? Say nothing? Return a greeting or fail to? Look at them? Not look at them?

By 2:13 had they crossed the bridge and IMO could have begun their journey back.

I think I now know why Libby took the video. They had to turn around. She was filming behind them so she could watch to see if he was continuing to come toward them.

IMO they were afraid enough that they didn't want to meet him in the middle of the bridge which left them no choice but to go the other way...

6 minutes.

6 minutes to overtake them. He wasn't walking slowly IMO. He had no intention of letting them reach the back end of the bridge (again) except for under his threatening control.

47 seconds.

They are walking together IMO. After discussing their options. Trying not to exude fear, trying to navigate a scary bridge, palpable situation. Most of those 47 seconds filming backwards while RA walks faster than they can. He knew they couldn't run. Almost a minute.

It's a time compression thing. Because, if they had been walking toward him at, say 2:09 or 2:10, they are perhaps 3 minutes away from him. They turn back toward the back end now we're at 2:11... but he's gaining on them. By 2:13, he's maybe 2 minutes away. By 2:14 they've converged. He's taken control.

That is why this is so especially harrowing IMO. At 2:08, all three were on the bridge and one knew that two had no way out.

Now that I've worked out a scenario to the minute, I see that it doesn't adequately explain, assuming one continuous 47-second video contained it all the dialogue we know, how within just 47 seconds, minus DTH and any recording after, how Libby started recording, Abby asks if he's behind her, they had a conference about what to do, and Abby's sleeve is in the frame. That's really compressed and suggests they were no more than one minute on to the bridge and BG is already a good five minutes across.

What did the scene look like at 2:10?

My brain wants badly to see the whole video in order to make sense of the timing.

I'm not sure my heart can take it.

The terror.

They just wanted to take some pictures. Laugh and talk like young girls do. And grow up.

The loss is incalculable. I don't think the trees surrounding the MHB will ever stop weeping.

JMO

 

[Peppery]

I was thinking this last night when there was the chat on whether someone gave a tip to l.e. Did she tip him in?

I’ve thought this since shortly after his arrest.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

6 minutes.

In 6 minutes, everything changed.

2:07. Abby, on the bridge. Snapchat photo. Perhaps the FBI analysts could determine just exactly where Libby was standing when she took that photo, whether by GPS data or crime scene reconstruction.

We don't know where BG was. He wasn't on the platform. (Unless.... unless LE and a lot of people know he was in the photo and the FBI blurred him out before releasing the photo. It was important to LE IMO to hold back from naming BG as the murderer at first in the hopes that he himself or others would tip him as a witness not the perpetrator. So maybe?)

What we don't know, but the 47 seconds will undoubtedly show, is where the girls were when they encountered BG prior to AW asking if he was behind her, and whether that occurred on the bridge itself. Was he on the platform as they approached and they waited until he exited to begin? Did he say something? Say nothing? Return a greeting or fail to? Look at them? Not look at them?

By 2:13 had they crossed the bridge and IMO could have begun their journey back.

I think I now know why Libby took the video. They had to turn around. She was filming behind them so she could watch to see if he was continuing to come toward them.

IMO they were afraid enough that they didn't want to meet him in the middle of the bridge which left them no choice but to go the other way...

6 minutes.

6 minutes to overtake them. He wasn't walking slowly IMO. He had no intention of letting them reach the back end of the bridge (again) except for under his threatening control.

47 seconds.

They are walking together IMO. After discussing their options. Trying not to exude fear, trying to navigate a scary bridge, palpable situation. Most of those 47 seconds filming backwards while RA walks faster than they can. He knew they couldn't run. Almost a minute.

It's a time compression thing. Because, if they had been walking toward him at, say 2:09 or 2:10, they are perhaps 3 minutes away from him. They turn back toward the back end now we're at 2:11... but he's gaining on them. By 2:13, he's maybe 2 minutes away. By 2:14 they've converged. He's taken control.

That is why this is so especially harrowing IMO. At 2:08, all three were on the bridge and one knew that two had no way out.

Now that I've worked out a scenario to the minute, I see that it doesn't adequately explain, assuming one continuous 47-second video contained it all the dialogue we know, how within just 47 seconds, minus DTH and any recording after, how Libby started recording, Abby asks if he's behind her, they had a conference about what to do, and Abby's sleeve is in the frame. That's really compressed and suggests they were no more than one minute on to the bridge and BG is already a good five minutes across.

What did the scene look like at 2:10?

My brain wants badly to see the whole video in order to make sense of the timing.

I'm not sure my heart can take it.

The terror.

They just wanted to take some pictures. Laugh and talk like young girls do. And grow up.

The loss is incalculable. I don't think the trees surrounding the MHB will ever stop weeping.

JMO

This is extraordinarily well written.
It puts you in the time and place, devoid of all the outside clutter of the last few years.
It is sobering.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

According to those who attended the July/August hearings, Baldwin turned to RA's mother and wife and told them about the testimony that was about to come up about the girls' injuries. They then left the courtroom.

Imo that corroborates RA's confession that he did not want his family to see what he had done.

If they (RA's family) do this at the trial the jurors will notice this and will probably come to the same conclusion.

Jurors will take note of all of it. Including if RA is glaring at the families of the victims or jurors. Even if he is staring aimlessly at the ceiling, it will be noted by the jurors.
IMO he will need to be coached to reign in his natural tendencies. It will be interesting to see if we see different, more friendly version of RA at trial. 30 days is a long time to keep up a facade. But then again he has 5 years of practice.
Jmo

 

[Willow Knight]

In 8 days we’ll have opening arguments and never have to hear about the Franks and PCA again!

MOO

I so wish I could believe this. After this latest arrest with Click and what he is accused of, leaves my eyes permanently bulged. Anything can happen.

I was catching up on another case on WS that I follow and saw a post by one of our posters here. Little Quentin Simon, one post, from a poster that is a regular here, had stated how we need DHR to protect our children. I guess much of the service also depends on the person doing their job. A DHR worker that does NOT seriously investigate child abuse accusations dangers the child. The workers know this.

"details several cases in which Click is accused of filing DCS reports detailing his visits to troubled families. Those families say Click never actually called or visited and lied."

This is the same person assisting the investigation of who killed Libby and Abby? It make me livid! I wish there was a way to charge him with obstruction after the fact in the murders of Abby and Libby.

Lying Liar.

 

[vinayd]

Obstruction of justice for Click for this trial would be just and fair. Derailed an entire investigation, and more invested in this than his job as a social worker.