Abuse and JonBenet

[Morag]

"BTW,I don't think the R's ever had any intention of going to prison.I think they would have skipped the country had they been indicted.That's my gut feeling on it."

I agree. They could pal around with Roman Polanski and Ira Einhorn!

SuperDave, I am happy to tell you that Ira Einhorn is in prison in Pennsylvania and unavailable to pal around with anyone except his fellow cons.

 

[BBB167893]

"SuperDave, I am happy to tell you that Ira Einhorn is in prison in Pennsylvania and unavailable to pal around with anyone except his fellow cons."

Right, right! I merely used him because he was a famous fugitive.

"About how old was this victim who said after about the 3rd time she began to like it? Was this a famous case?"

No, it was an obscure case from a while ago. This was a girl who was about 15 when she said it and she said it started when she was about seven years old. Not much older than JB.

 

[Eagle1]

.......imo it was done to silence JonBenet, and what was being hidden was her sexual abuse, why else would a six-year old girl be so brutally killed?

Have to agree this was all done to SILENCE JonBenet. It's impossible to ignore that it was after an attempted 911 call on the night of a party when she was found sitting on some stairs crying.

Question is Who would be that desperate to silence her, who intimately knew the Ramseys, who, man or woman and the head blow would take a strong person, knew the R's wouldn't be likely to hear anything. For the record, I do listen and consider all the RDI theories, but there are also so many other possibilities.

What a convenient coincidence that the bathrobe was left in the den, probably draped on a chair. Why would a killer put it on the floor, to show that JR wasn't very neat? I think he was a lot neater than that, although the house in general was a mess, and he/they paid a housekeeper. PR could have taken it from their bedroom, I know, but maybe it really was in the den.

Yes, the staging and the note were very overdone, but do sound like a criminal type who happened to know PR also overdid everything. Very cunning person with a strong need to silence a kid that was GETTING OLD ENOUGH TO REALLY MAKE WAVES.

I'm afraid the attempted 911 call was what provoked this whole thing. And that the abuse must have started in Texas, when Judith Philips (right, SD?) said JonBenet came back without her look of innocence. Someone had been visiting the R's who never gets mentioned, has some kind of immunity, probably. If he doesn't, just the embarrassment of having made some deal with him for continued success would keep the family quiet about him. They probably fell for some con artist flattery and couldn't discern that whoever it was actually was jealous of them and their little girl, trying to "humble" her by the abuse, someone who's started a rumor behind the scenes in religion circles that children need to be humbled, taught humility.

Heresy, as orthodox teaching is that we're to humble only ourselves, "like a little child". He probably never says it publicly himself, but gets others to say it. That's called "insulation", judging by what little I've read about covert stuff. There's hearsay from you-know-where, someone who lives in Charlevoix, that the R's were being badmouthed there, a hate campaign. Even before the attempted 911 call, but she'd also been going to the school nurse.

 

[angelwngs]

I am considering the possibility that PR may have been the one using JR's robe if it was indeed terrycloth. She was not the more organized of the two and could easily have borrowed his robe as I often do my husband's robe and over-sized tee-shirts....

 

[Toltec]

To pull out some things:

Quote:
Eagle1,

Here's some information about the "douches":
Steve Thomas HB "JonBenét" - page 227 (Courtesy of Little FFJ)

Page 227

In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country
reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation-that JonBenet
had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed.................

"There was chronic abuse" . . . "Past violation of the vagina" . . .

"Evidence of both acute injury and chronic sexual abuse." In other

words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert

summed it up well when he said the injuries were no"t consistent with

sexual assault but with a child who was being physically abused.


None of those things would be untrue of using douches on a 6 yr old.
One of the problems with expert examiners is that they tend to see what they are used to seeing.
Some did look at the injuries to JB and say that maybe it was not so straight-forward as just being a case of sexual abuse.
One was Dr. Richard Krugman who said " Was she sexually assaulted? Did she die because of the cord buried deep in the flesh of her neck, or because of her severely fractured skull?
Krugman isn't sure of the answer to either question. But he said he is certain that she was physically abused.
"I know nothing that I have seen that would make me think the primary finding is sexual abuse,'' Krugman said."
Dr. Lee has said it appeared to him to be a domestic accident.

Well, I get your point, sue, but here's the thing: if the chronic vaginal injuries were caused by Patsy giving JonBenet douches, that in and of itself is physical abuse.

These are on Forums for Justice.

Why in the heck would Patsy give JonBenet douches??? Does not make any sense. JonBenet was not only a bed-wetter, but she also wet herself during the day. This caused "diaper rash" so Patsy would apply Desitin when needed. "Douching" JonBenet sounds pretty far-fetched.

 

[angelwngs]

Why in the heck would Patsy give JonBenet douches??? Does not make any sense. JonBenet was not only a bed-wetter, but she also wet herself during the day. This caused "diaper rash" so Patsy would apply Desitin when needed. "Douching" JonBenet sounds pretty far-fetched.

~~~~
There was a "mentally unstable" relative in my family who gave herself douches and enimas DAILY. She died of cancer which originated in the colon. By the time of her death her reproductive organs were also involved... She had a daughter and attempted this daily practice on her as well. I understand your saying it sounds far-fetched, but it seriously does happen...

 

[BBB167893]

"I'm afraid the attempted 911 call was what provoked this whole thing. And that the abuse must have started in Texas, when Judith Philips (right, SD?) said JonBenet came back without her look of innocence."

Yes, I believe it was Judith!

If you go that way, someone suggested that she was giving her douches to keep her "clean."

Whether that refers to fear of JB getting cancer or to knowledge of sexual contact, I say make up your own mind.

 

[LinasK]

2. JR's adult children said he never molested them, and he did have an affair with an adult woman, proving I guess that he wasn't a pedophile.

Eagle, not necessarily proof. Michael Jackson did reportedly sleep with 1 or 2 18-year-old guys(as I recall, one of them was Liberace's lover) before deciding his preference was little boys.

I firmly believe John had an incestuous relationship with JB and he was the one that killed her. Patsy wrote the note and stood by her man, IMO!

 

[Eagle1]

Thanks, CalicoCat, Toltec, Linask, SD.

I've jotted down the page number to look up in ST's book, never heard of this douching before. Okay, guess I could believe PR did that, like Sybil's mother who was off her rocker. But will never be able to picture the parents doing some of this other, at least not alone, maybe unable to stop or report someone else who's being given free rein in the world only for a time. Somehow I don't think he's dead yet, but will be.

Isn't it amazing how much new we're still finding out, this long after?

 

[BBB167893]

It sure is!

Look at it this way, Eagle1: if those douching incidents did happen, (spitball alert) in her mind, she was doing her baby a favor. Not necessarily malicious.

 

[Toltec]

Eagle, you said JonBenet was killed to SILENCE her...but another theory is that JonBenet was killed to SAVE her.

Save her from future abuse, trauma, and a miserable adulthood. Just like Patsy....Patsy did not want JonBenet to go through what she went through.

 

[Solace]

Eagle, you said JonBenet was killed to SILENCE her...but another theory is that JonBenet was killed to SAVE her.

Save her from future abuse, trauma, and a miserable adulthood. Just like Patsy....Patsy did not want JonBenet to go through what she went through.

This a very very angry killing. It doesn't look like someone wanted to save her from years of abuse. Someone was in a rage that night.

 

[Solace]

Eagle, not necessarily proof. Michael Jackson did reportedly sleep with 1 or 2 18-year-old guys(as I recall, one of them was Liberace's lover) before deciding his preference was little boys.

I firmly believe John had an incestuous relationship with JB and he was the one that killed her. Patsy wrote the note and stood by her man, IMO!

Linask, I am starting to believe that myself. He is really too much in all of his interviews. He is very good at being interviewed or the interviewees are just bad, which is very possible. But he is good at it.

Patsy is pretty good at not getting intimated especially in her 2000 interview. She has a look on her face as if to say, "mmmhmmm, next question".

 

[Angie]

Have to agree this was all done to SILENCE JonBenet. It's impossible to ignore that it was after an attempted 911 call on the night of a party when she was found sitting on some stairs crying.

Question is Who would be that desperate to silence her, who intimately knew the Ramseys, who, man or woman and the head blow would take a strong person, knew the R's wouldn't be likely to hear anything. For the record, I do listen and consider all the RDI theories, but there are also so many other possibilities.

What a convenient coincidence that the bathrobe was left in the den, probably draped on a chair. Why would a killer put it on the floor, to show that JR wasn't very neat? I think he was a lot neater than that, although the house in general was a mess, and he/they paid a housekeeper. PR could have taken it from their bedroom, I know, but maybe it really was in the den.

Yes, the staging and the note were very overdone, but do sound like a criminal type who happened to know PR also overdid everything. Very cunning person with a strong need to silence a kid that was GETTING OLD ENOUGH TO REALLY MAKE WAVES.

I'm afraid the attempted 911 call was what provoked this whole thing. And that the abuse must have started in Texas, when Judith Philips (right, SD?) said JonBenet came back without her look of innocence. Someone had been visiting the R's who never gets mentioned, has some kind of immunity, probably. If he doesn't, just the embarrassment of having made some deal with him for continued success would keep the family quiet about him. They probably fell for some con artist flattery and couldn't discern that whoever it was actually was jealous of them and their little girl, trying to "humble" her by the abuse, someone who's started a rumor behind the scenes in religion circles that children need to be humbled, taught humility.

Heresy, as orthodox teaching is that we're to humble only ourselves, "like a little child". He probably never says it publicly himself, but gets others to say it. That's called "insulation", judging by what little I've read about covert stuff. There's hearsay from you-know-where, someone who lives in Charlevoix, that the R's were being badmouthed there, a hate campaign. Even before the attempted 911 call, but she'd also been going to the school nurse.

I remember reading the book Jonbenet's Gift and in it I read that they had to silence her because of the sexual abuse

 

[calicocat]

"If he doesn't, just the embarrassment of having made some deal with him for continued success would keep the family quiet about him."

This brings to mind a story I read where John's business was doing poorly at one time and Patsy's father helped bail him out. It has been suggested, not proven, that Mr. Paugh sexually abused his daughters. He could have been abusing JonBenet as well.

Another thought I have is, instead of sexual abuse, could the douching have enlarged JonBenet's vagina. The brand I use has a container with a small hose that you insert. There is no "children's" size available that I'm aware of. Couldn't that have stretched her skin?

 

[Eagle1]

"If he doesn't, just the embarrassment of having made some deal with him for continued success would keep the family quiet about him."

This brings to mind a story I read where John's business was doing poorly at one time and Patsy's father helped bail him out. It has been suggested, not proven, that Mr. Paugh sexually abused his daughters. He could have been abusing JonBenet as well......QUOTE]

I've been thinking of that possibility too, and one more thing you could have added into the mix, didn't Nedra once say, "JonBenet was only molested a little bit,"? Had that been her attitude about her daughters?

But Don Paugh's helping them get successful in business was a long time before Judith Philips' remark that JonBenet had lost her look of innocence when they came back from a trip to Texas, right? I'm inclined to think the abuse started there. Question is, how would Judith Philips know to be watching for a symptom like that? Was it THAT much of a difference?

SD, agreed, she probably thought it was somehow beneficial.

Anyone know what page in ST's paperback version? I pulled it down again from a high closet shelf where a ton of stuff could have fallen on my head, before noticing the above reference is for the hardcover version. Searched the page with a Sherlock Holmes magnifying glass.

 

[UKGuy]

"If he doesn't, just the embarrassment of having made some deal with him for continued success would keep the family quiet about him."

This brings to mind a story I read where John's business was doing poorly at one time and Patsy's father helped bail him out. It has been suggested, not proven, that Mr. Paugh sexually abused his daughters. He could have been abusing JonBenet as well......QUOTE]

I've been thinking of that possibility too, and one more thing you could have added into the mix, didn't Nedra once say, "JonBenet was only molested a little bit,"? Had that been her attitude about her daughters?

But Don Paugh's helping them get successful in business was a long time before Judith Philips' remark that JonBenet had lost her look of innocence when they came back from a trip to Texas, right? I'm inclined to think the abuse started there. Question is, how would Judith Philips know to be watching for a symptom like that? Was it THAT much of a difference?

SD, agreed, she probably thought it was somehow beneficial.

Anyone know what page in ST's paperback version? I pulled it down again from a high closet shelf where a ton of stuff could have fallen on my head, before noticing the above reference is for the hardcover version. Searched the page with a Sherlock Holmes magnifying glass.

Eagle1,

Chap. 24 pp 253 Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation. I found no mention of douches though?

I am skeptical about ST's theory regarding his Punishment Theory. Seems like only JonBenet's internal genitalia was the focus of any punishment since there were no external injuries or bruising etc. Did John Ramsey look the other way while JonBenet was abused in this manner?

wrt the sealed michigan search warrants their focus would have been similar to the colorado one e.g. movies, videos, tapes, cameras, photograph albums, computer equipment, the whole shooting match. Including any then current internet accounts, which they did have, this was probably all sealed to avoid obvious speculation in the media.

Question is, how would Judith Philips know to be watching for a symptom like that? Was it THAT much of a difference?

Good question, were her observations prior to or after JonBenet's death?

ST speculates the sequence of events as follows: manual strangulation, head bash followed by garroting.

Which in my book is not accidental, also its likely she was asphyxiated with the ligature alone, and the garrote was applied much later. Possibly around the same time the bogus duct-tape was placed on her mouth?

Its worth mentioning again, since it can be tiresome itemising all the distinct operations that were applied to JonBenet e.g. Wiping down, redressed in clean underwear, garrote, duct-tape, sexual assault etc. This requires JonBenet's corpse to be moved, turned over, turned back, then wrapped in those blankets, add in the possibility of rigor mortis, and it may be possible to be more definite about a timeframe?



.

 

[Eagle1]

Thanks much, UKGuy.

I don't see any mention of douches either. Would someone post part of the paragraph that contains the word, if we're allowed to do that? Also how would ST know if there were douches by the mother or anyone? Nobody else mentions that, correct?

 

[BBB167893]

"I've been thinking of that possibility too, and one more thing you could have added into the mix, didn't Nedra once say, 'JonBenet was only molested a little bit,'? Had that been her attitude about her daughters?"

It's not uncommon to look the other way, Eagle1, horrible as that is.

"Question is, how would Judith Philips know to be watching for a symptom like that? Was it THAT much of a difference?"

Must have been.

 

[rashomon]

"I've been thinking of that possibility too, and one more thing you could have added into the mix, didn't Nedra once say, 'JonBenet was only molested a little bit,'? Had that been her attitude about her daughters?"

When Nedra was interviewed in her home for the Geraldo Rivera show (PMPT paperback, p. 512), she was referring to what she thought happened to JB when she was killed, not to chronic abuse.

[Nedra]: "I didn't know that she had been mole ... molested to some extent and hit on the head. I didn't know that."