Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate(MERGED)

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DNA Solves

Do you think ICA killed Caylee on purpose or by accident?

  • On purpose...

    Votes: 230 87.8%
  • It was an accident..

    Votes: 32 12.2%

  • Total voters
    262
I am not convinced by any of the evidence that Casey intentionally killed Caylee and some of the evidence that was allowed into the trial doesn't seem to be fair. An example is the heart shaped residue that was noticed by an FBI witness which she showed to a supervisor but neither one of them photographs this piece of evidence. She is allowed to testify about it but the jury is expected to take her word that the heart shaped residue was there and it was from a heart shaped sticker that links back to Casey. That seemed to me to be no kind of evidence at all. Another piece of evidence that the prosecution used was the picture of Caylee AND Casey in which the witness made an animation (my word, I'm not sure what word to use here)of Caylee's skull to move over her little face and then put the duct tape over her face (beside the picture of Casey) to show the what they thought must have happened. This witness said he pulled a picture of Caylee off the internet to use. But he chose to use a photo of both Caylee (morphed into a skull with duct tape over her mouth and nose)and Casey side by side. It just didn't "sit right" with me because I felt that animation was not required at all to show their theory of what happened.

I just don't see anything that tells me that Casey planned and murdered Caylee Marie Anthony. I think that Casey caused Caylee's death (truthfully, who else was there?) but I don't believe she meant to kill her. I think she loved Caylee. I also think that if she wanted rid of her child, she would have just given her to Cindy and George.

I don't believe in the death penalty and it shocks me that so many people are so positive that they know that this woman is guilty of premeditated murder and that she should have her life terminated by the state.

Just my opinion

The witness who saw the heart shaped sticky residue was a credible witness,who was simply stating what she saw. It will be up to each juror to decide whether or not to give it any weight.
Dr.Spitz showed a picture of what he called brain dust. He didn't have it tested so the jurors will each have to do decide for themselves if they believe it based just on his say so.
That's what jurors are for .
I can't speak for anyone else ,but I have read discovery documents,depos,watched the hearings and LE interviews,poured over computer and telephone records,and on and on,for almost 3 years now. Not the media stuff,because they can get their facts wrong.All the documents can be found here.
That's why I,and I believe so many others,feel she is guilty as sin.We know this case inside and out.
 
Maybe this April Whelan's story was overheard by ICA, but don't forget Cindy kinda set up the lie with leaving the pool ladder up story and such.

Cindy said she took the ladder off on Sunday after she and Caylee got out. The reason it stuck with her all this time is because on Tues (maybe Mon ,I'll check) she noticed the ladder was back on the pool and said something to George.
I'm not a Cindy fan ,but she never said she left the ladder up. I'm not sure I believe the second part of her story,though.:crazy:
 
First and foremost, I do think Casey did try to "get her to sleep", and Caylee possibly couldn't handle the chloroform, and died of overdose. If that is what happened, she plainly didn't want anyone know that SHE killed her BECAUSE she doesn't want anyone to see her in a bad light. Having clearly stated that, I want her to suffer the same punishment that would be rendered by this jury.

The only time Casey showed "anger" to Caylee was when she was trying to get her to go to bed. Two year olds would sleep at night, if she wasn't 'drugging' her to sleep during the day.

I wonder where Casey and Caylee went during the day, when her parents and Tony were working.
 
I have no place to put this. Cannot find the questions for lawyer thread.
i really want the timeline/phone logs/pings of ICA's whereabouts entered into evidence. Here is where I am uneducated. If the state has already rested their case does that mean they can no longer enter evidence? Can they only rebutt the Defense's case? I am really surprised the state didn't lay a stronger foundation of Casey's actions on June 16th. Also a lot if things things that I consider important to the case haven't been discussed. There is a thread about things we wished the Prosecution had entered and many felt in that thread that they state hasn't played their whole hand yet. But..can they now after resting? Can someone please explain how the States final presentation goes legally.
I know this is in the wrong thread but the info I'm concerned about could lead people to accident vs premeditation in deliberations.
 
Question? How do you feel River Cruz's testimony of GA stating is was an accident that snowballed with effect the jury? In a way she will be testifying for ICA on the accident thru heresay without ICA having to take the stand to say it herself. I feel her testimony is going to swing the jury towards accident because its hard to wrap your head around Caylee's murder being premeditated for some people.
I still think it was murder, not an accident. Nothing in Caseys previous behavior shows that she was unable to emote. I just dont buy the ugly coping theory but think others do.
 
I have no place to put this. Cannot find the questions for lawyer thread.
i really want the timeline/phone logs/pings of ICA's whereabouts entered into evidence. Here is where I am uneducated. If the state has already rested their case does that mean they can no longer enter evidence? Can they only rebutt the Defense's case? I am really surprised the state didn't lay a stronger foundation of Casey's actions on June 16th. Also a lot if things things that I consider important to the case haven't been discussed. There is a thread about things we wished the Prosecution had entered and many felt in that thread that they state hasn't played their whole hand yet. But..can they now after resting? Can someone please explain how the States final presentation goes legally.
I know this is in the wrong thread but the info I'm concerned about could lead people to accident vs premeditation in deliberations.

Here you go :seeya: Lawyer thread
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141105&page=3
 
I did not vote yet because I think it is a combo of the two choices. I think it was 'accidentally on purpose.' I think she was angry at her folks for threatening to take custody. That would end her life as she knew it. All of her friends, including Tony, would know her secrets and lies. The parents were going to kick Casey out and choose Caylee over her. They wanted and loved Caylee more. That made Casey really angry. All of the love and attention was being lavished upon Caylee Marie, and NOT Casey marie.

Casey is lazy. But for years her parents have stressed how dangerous it was to leave the ladder up when Caylee is home. So all Casey had to do is pull out the ladder, leave the sliding door open, and then go in her room and get on her lap top. Simple really. Caylee did the rest herself.

But by then Tony had called and invited her to a movie dat night. Casey did not want to call 911 and start this ugly ball rolling. She decided to stall for awhile. Maybe she could set up a different scenario. Maybe she could set up a murder/suicide with her folks and she could throw the baby into the mix.

But first things first. On to her date night, then the next day, sleep in and hang out 'in bed' with her new boyfriend. Why spoil a good thing?
 
I have no place to put this. Cannot find the questions for lawyer thread.
i really want the timeline/phone logs/pings of ICA's whereabouts entered into evidence. Here is where I am uneducated. If the state has already rested their case does that mean they can no longer enter evidence? Can they only rebutt the Defense's case? I am really surprised the state didn't lay a stronger foundation of Casey's actions on June 16th. Also a lot if things things that I consider important to the case haven't been discussed. There is a thread about things we wished the Prosecution had entered and many felt in that thread that they state hasn't played their whole hand yet. But..can they now after resting? Can someone please explain how the States final presentation goes legally.
I know this is in the wrong thread but the info I'm concerned about could lead people to accident vs premeditation in deliberations.

The state is banking upon the fact that the DT needs to bring their story out into the open. And once they do, the state will bring out the cell phone records and computer forensics. They already made a move towards that this morning. They said they will bring out the timeline for the 16th from the computer hard drive.
 
I have no place to put this. Cannot find the questions for lawyer thread.
i really want the timeline/phone logs/pings of ICA's whereabouts entered into evidence. Here is where I am uneducated. If the state has already rested their case does that mean they can no longer enter evidence? Can they only rebutt the Defense's case? I am really surprised the state didn't lay a stronger foundation of Casey's actions on June 16th. Also a lot if things things that I consider important to the case haven't been discussed. There is a thread about things we wished the Prosecution had entered and many felt in that thread that they state hasn't played their whole hand yet. But..can they now after resting? Can someone please explain how the States final presentation goes legally.
I know this is in the wrong thread but the info I'm concerned about could lead people to accident vs premeditation in deliberations.

I think the State are gambling on Baez actually attempting to offer evidence supporting his opening statements. :floorlaugh: Their rebuttal case would come after the defense rests and much closer to the jury retiring to consider their verdict. ;) Then they get to do closing arguments and connect all the dots for the jury. :woohoo:
 
I think it was an accidental drowning.

The states burden is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that KC is guilty of premeditated murder.

They did a great job of proving KC is a liar, but being a liar does not make someone a premeditated murderer.
Snipped for space

The police practically pleaded with her to say it was an accident, but she stuck to her ridiculous story. It was WHAT she lied about that points to guilt (among other things), not simply that she's a liar.

Some people have predicted a quick verdict, but I don't think so. I don't think juries take death penalty cases lightly, so I think they will debate many of the points you've addressed but ultimately come up with a guilty verdict of 1st degree murder.

Ok, I'll leave a 1% chance that they'll compromise and find her guilty of manslaughter, but I don't think this will be a hung jury.

I thought you wrote a good post and it demonstrates well that what is reasonable to one person may not be to another.
 
I think it was an accidental drowning.


Chloroform levels in trunk carpet were normal according to FBI.

That's not what I heard. I heard that the fact that there was any chloroform found was surprising given that chloroform is volatile and the trunk liner was packaged in nothing but a cardboard box.


Air sample claims shockingly high levels of chloroform. However, the chemist says that the test was not a quantative test, so how can they determine a high level of chloroform if they do not know how much chloroform was in there?

Shockingly high levels of chloroform that came from a sample that had sat for a long time and in which the chloroform had a long time to dissipate from which indicates that if the samples were fresh the levels would have been through the roof.


I see the defense witnesses grasping at straws and trying to say anything that will give a reasonable doubt and in doing so they are taking away my doubts. Their own witnesses don't agree on facts or theories. They contradict each other which just points out all the consistencies in the states evidence. Many of the opinions that the defense team tries to coerce their witnesses to say or that they volunteer are just absurd and anyone with common sense can see through them if they actually listen to what they say.

I am a very soft hearted person and it's very hard for me to comprehend why a mother would kill her own child for any reason and I really, really hate to let my mind go there but it's getting more and more difficult to find even an unreasonable doubt as far her guilt. Much less a reasonable one.


The antics of her main defense attorney doesn't help at all either and the way that the case is progressing makes it look as though the rest of the defense team really isn't on board and that they don't want to be involved. What ever happened to Cheney Mason and Jose Baez splitting up the witnesses? Remember all that from CM?
 
Well what about an option three for pondering....Both:

Accident on purpose.

Scenarios could include, very conveeennnieently:
-Back door left open, ladder put on pool, Caylee encouraged to go to pool, Casey innocently turns her back...where's Caylee? Gee, I don't know...softly calling for Caylee while she is drowning...
-Any number of precarious and dangerous items left out for Caylee to (conveniently) get into: things to fall off of, chemicals to get into, pools to climb into, 'accidental' overdose to be had by knockout med, conveniently forgetting her in car (seat or trunk), etc...

Also to consider: even if George really did say 'it was an accident that snowballed out of control', assuming he did say that, and it wasn't just his wishful thinking either, but what he thinks he knows - it doesn't have to be because he was personally involved, but because Casey TOLD him it was an "accident", ie: see any of the above that she could have told her dad, and/or including...'I just left her alone for a minute', 'it was an accident', 'I was scared', 'I didn't know what to do', 'I left her in the car seat and forgot her', etc...

Also sounds like it is also a real possibility she got the drowning story from hearing about April Whalen's story... and the drowning accident fit for the DT story, especially with the statement supposedly made by George about it being an accident...we'll know more on that soon...

But if she did tell George it was an 'accident', and whether it was a pool 'accident' or any myriad other 'accident', I think it would most likely be an 'accident' on purpose, if any type of 'accident' at all.

Accident on purpose: a considerable third choice.
 
In most child drownings they sink face down, tilting down. The head weighs the most, causing a predictable descent pattern. This typically results in very little to no water in the lungs (in that typical position of descent the air in the lungs disallows water to enter) because air is already there. In the initial drowning event (thrashing etc. if that even occurs) acute laryngospasm closes the airway before they aspirate much water as the drowning victim "blacks out" and subsequently dies from hypoxia (lack of oxygen). There are some that take on some water, but very little from what I've seen. Most doubtfully enough for trace evidence in most occurrences.

There would be NO trace evidence after 6 months in a swamp and a typhoon and 100 degree heat and alternating rain storms. Even the DT experts have admitted that under cross examination.
 
I think it was an accidental drowning.

The states burden is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that KC is guilty of premeditated murder.

They did a great job of proving KC is a liar, but being a liar does not make someone a premeditated murderer.

When and where and how did KC murder Caylee? The duct tape and chloroform are allegedly the how, but there is reasonable doubt attached to both of these. Leaving where and when unanswered may be legal to do, but leaves room for doubt with the jury if this can't be answered. In the states CIC the where and when were not addressed.

Why did she do it? So she could Party. pretty weak motive.

The white trash bag from the trunk. This sat in a dumpster for 18 hours. This evidence and the bug evidence inside have a strong potential of being compromised from other insects that were in the dumpster prior to the white trash bag being in there. The single leg of the important fly would be included in this, and that leg was the major factor in the scenario of what might have happened in Dr. Haskell's report.

The single hair with apparent decomp cannot be determined to have come from a dead person or a live person according to the FBI. The death band usually takes 3 months or longer to form, but has apparently been found to form earlier than that.

The heart shaped sticker residue no longer exists according to the FBI.

Chloroform levels in trunk carpet were normal according to FBI. Air sample claims shockingly high levels of chloroform. However, the chemist says that the test was not a quantative test, so how can they determine a high level of chloroform if they do not know how much chloroform was in there? I may confused on this particular issue, however, one of more of the jurors may also be confused and if so, then reasonable doubt is here. Also Dr. Vass did not get his own samples, this may be important to some jurors.

The lack of flies and casings in the trunk. Yes a lot of flies flew out when GA and SB opened trunk, however, there should have been many (100's if not 1,000's) of dead flies and there should have been many, many casings. GA and CA testified they did not vacuum the car, and their vacuums were picked up with a search warrant, and nothing was found.

The fatty substance like adipocere on the paper towels. Adipocere can form in as little as 3 days, but normally takes at least 2 to 3 weeks to start forming. Butterfat contains myristic, palmitic, stearic, oleic, linoleic, and palmitoleic acids basically the same fatty acids that are found in the substance like adipocere on the paper towels. Visually bacon grease can easily be mistaken for adipocere, but a simple test can easily prove which it is. If a libs test proving this was adipocere was brought up in trial I missed it.

The stain in the carpet of the trunk. Scrapings of traces of butyric acid were found in the carpet. Butyric acid can be found in butter, parmesan cheese, and vomit. What exactly caused the stain in the trunk carpet, could it have been vomit? Not in evidence, but then neither is decomp fluid.

One botonist says the remains could have been placed in their final resting spot as late as the 4th week in November. JA's demeanor and facial expressions say he feels he disproved this with his cross, but what does the jury think?

The superimposed duct tape over the nose and mouth, with KC in the background definately proved this was a possibility. However, I think this could have easily been explained without the visual, and that the video may have been taken as an act of desperation from a prosecution that has not been able to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

The state seemingly has wanted evidence legally supressed because of JB's failures to get his experts to file reports. The jury may see this as the state trying to hide something, because most people think that the state wants to find out the truth, and suppressing potential evidence does not look good.

Dr. S. vs. Dr. G. testimonies if even one of the jurors found credence in the opinion of the extremely experienced Dr. S. there could be a hung jury on his opinion alone. Seems like there is some pretty good reasonable doubt attached to the testimony that Caylee's skull was laying on her left side during decomposition.

Two cadaver dogs each alerted once in near the same place in the back yard one day, but the next day neither alerted. That doesn't make any sense when the prosecution is claiming the unmistakeable odor of death lasts for years, in this part of the case, it didn't even last until the next day.

GB legally destroyed his notes. Legal or not, it makes me wonder whether or not he scraped food off the containers in the white trash bag.

The odor in the trunk. Until the alternate light source showed potential human decomp in the trunk, NO ONE'S actions were those of any professional personel who knew beyond a reasonable doubt what human decomp smells like vs. a trash bag sitting in a trunk for 3 weeks in the hot Florida sun.

Not only do I think the state has not proven their case, I think at this time roughly halfway through the dt's side of the case, I think it is a hung jury for sure, and if it keeps going the way it has, there is going to be a pretty good possiblity of an acquittal.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

I like your line of reasoning. I do. But two things: The computer searches and the instances of her trying to cover tracks after the fact. (Like purposely telling Amy that she ran over something in the car and in stunk, as if in case Amy would remember this later.)

I also think that all of these pieces of evidence do not singularly point to a conviction. But together, they tell a very guilty story.
 
I find it very telling that despite great effort (though probably too late in the day) Baez couldnt get a doc for hire to diagnose ICA with anything that would further his defense theory.

Seems Dr Danzinger and Dr Weiss were prepared to listen to her but that was it. :waitasec:

And still Baez had the gaul to say he wasn't putting on a mental health defense. :floorlaugh:

Maybe sociopath didnt have the same appeal as post traumatic stress disorder.
 
I did not vote yet because I think it is a combo of the two choices. I think it was 'accidentally on purpose.' I think she was angry at her folks for threatening to take custody. That would end her life as she knew it. All of her friends, including Tony, would know her secrets and lies. The parents were going to kick Casey out and choose Caylee over her. They wanted and loved Caylee more. That made Casey really angry. All of the love and attention was being lavished upon Caylee Marie, and NOT Casey marie.

Casey is lazy. But for years her parents have stressed how dangerous it was to leave the ladder up when Caylee is home. So all Casey had to do is pull out the ladder, leave the sliding door open, and then go in her room and get on her lap top. Simple really. Caylee did the rest herself.

But by then Tony had called and invited her to a movie dat night. Casey did not want to call 911 and start this ugly ball rolling. She decided to stall for awhile. Maybe she could set up a different scenario. Maybe she could set up a murder/suicide with her folks and she could throw the baby into the mix.

But first things first. On to her date night, then the next day, sleep in and hang out 'in bed' with her new boyfriend. Why spoil a good thing?

katy, i didn't see your post about accidentally on purpose before I posted mine... sorry! but great minds think alike!
 
Thank you for admitting that you have not read all the docs. I for one have admitted it as well. However, I have read thousands of documents since this case began. I have read most of the discovery with the exception of some of these latest letters. I think it is unrealistic to claim you have read all the docs.IMO

It seems that many people on this board HAVE read most or all of the docs (not me) and I can't help but think that they have a better grasp of them than Jose does. I wonder if he even read some of them!
 
The police practically pleaded with her to say it was an accident, but she stuck to her ridiculous story. It was WHAT she lied about that points to guilt (among other things), not simply that she's a liar.

Some people have predicted a quick verdict, but I don't think so. I don't think juries take death penalty cases lightly, so I think they will debate many of the points you've addressed but ultimately come up with a guilty verdict of 1st degree murder.

Ok, I'll leave a 1% chance that they'll compromise and find her guilty of manslaughter, but I don't think this will be a hung jury.

I thought you wrote a good post and it demonstrates well that what is reasonable to one person may not be to another.

Do you feel this being a DP case actually hinders the State? I wonder if the jury will be scared to vote Murder 1 fearing a DP from the judge. I think they may be more apt to go for stronger charges if DP wasn't on the table. It's something I ve been thinking about but haven't found a thread on.
 
Do you feel this being a DP case actually hinders the State? I wonder if the jury will be scared to vote Murder 1 fearing a DP from the judge. I think they may be more apt to go for stronger charges if DP wasn't on the table. It's something I ve been thinking about but haven't found a thread on.

You make some good points. This is a death qualified jury for what its worth.I don't know if it hinders the State to get a guilty verdict. But I'm leaning for aggravated manslaughter for now. If Baez keeps getting his own witnesses to help the states case I might up it to 1st degree.
 
Do you feel this being a DP case actually hinders the State? I wonder if the jury will be scared to vote Murder 1 fearing a DP from the judge. I think they may be more apt to go for stronger charges if DP wasn't on the table. It's something I ve been thinking about but haven't found a thread on.

No, because I don't think they were ever really counting on getting the DP. I think they were using the DP as a strategy to get Life or LWOP. I believe the jury will feel they are showing mercy and compromising by voting Aggravated Manslaughter in the end. imoo
 

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