TedMac
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I was not aware that any of the Burgoon sisters were/are models.
AL AL - J.B. Beasley, 17, & Tracie Hawlett, 17, Ozark, 31 July 1999 #3
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I was not aware that any of the Burgoon sisters were/are models.
DimeDetective
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This is a stellar post, somequestions! Thank you for sharing your expertise and for illuminating a completely different perspective on the location of the car. Looking at all sides of things through well-considered opposing viewpoints like this can, I believe, lead to real progress.
In response to both somequestions and TedMac (quoted post snipped and BBM), here's why I theorized in my earlier post that the car being left on Herring could be a big clue to the killer's personality and thus his identity, and maybe to his motive too:
First of all, the following points apply only under a few reasonable assumptions:
a) that investigators are indeed correct in their reading of the evidence that the murders were committed not on Herring Avenue, but at another location,
b) investigators have correctly identified, through the discovery of evidence, that other location as being the murder site, and
c) that the person who made suspicious, boastful statements to friends following the murders is actually the person who committed the murders.
1. The biggest reason I believe the car being left on Herring Avenue was intentional, communicative, and is thus related to the killer's psychology/personality/identity/motive:
The driving of the car to Herring Avenue with the victims in the trunk is both unnecessary and extremely risky.
This doesn't add up. It's a lose-lose for a killer trying to elude capture. He's committed a double murder—plus one extraneous move. That one additional move, to Herring Avenue, jumps out because it seems pointless.
Why are there two crime scenes? If the car was moved away from the murder site to divert suspicion (i.e., if the killer or his associates lived on or owned the site where the murders were committed), why was ample evidence left at the murder site? The witness who heard screams may have come forward (eight months later) to lead investigators to the murder site, but if no evidence is found there, it's a dead end. But investigators did find evidence (eight months later). If the killer or his associates do not live on/own the site where the murders were committed—otherwise the witness and evidence would have led investigators right to their door—then why not just leave the bodies there?
What purpose does the killer have for moving the car and the bodies, then? Does it serve a purely functional/practical purpose, such as his own transportation? Okay—but why drive the car with the victims in the trunk? Why not leave them where they were killed and just take the car? It cuts down on the risk somewhat. Also, if the murder site was indeed the barn as reported, and if the killer needed to get back to the neighborhood of Herring Avenue, it was well within walking distance—and certainly walking would've been worth eliminating the risk of being caught driving the victims' car at all, let alone with the victims in the trunk.
I was struck by a few strong similarities between this case and the 1969 murder of Sister Cathy Cesnik while watching the Netflix documentary series The Keepers. One circumstance in particular really stood out. At about 47 minutes into Episode 1, journalist Tom Nugent reads from his own story:
"Following the autopsy, Roemer soon found himself contemplating a likely scenario: a stranger had probably abducted Cesnik from the Edmondson Village Shopping Center on Edmondson Avenue near her apartment. In all likelihood, the unknown assailant had then killed the nun and dumped her body about five miles away. But his hypothesis was contradicted by one troubling fact: the nun's car, a green 1969 Ford Maverick, had been parked at an odd angle, illegally, near her Carriage House apartment complex only a few hours after she drove off to the shopping center. How had the dead woman's Ford gotten back to her apartment complex? In that situation, the killer wants to get the hell away from there. The last thing he wants is to return to the area where he might be spotted driving the victim's car."
2. The other insight into the killer's personality, and possibly his motive, comes across strongly in the event that he voluntarily, openly boasts to friends about his role in the murders in the ensuing days.
"Would you be surprised if I killed the two girls?" is not the private, tortured confession of someone consumed with guilt unburdening himself. This is a boastful statement. If the car was intentionally left on Herring, especially if the killer lived or was staying near Herring as TedMac has theorized, can we not look upon his boastful speech as a natural extension of his boastful placement of the car? A killer who knew the girls, and could thus be easily linked to them, would want to conceal their bodies. A killer who did not know the girls, but who wants more than anything to evade capture, distances himself from the bodies, and as soon as possible. But a killer who wants to take credit more than he wants to elude capture leaves the bodies pretty much front and center, where they will be found immediately. And, a few days later, when perhaps he hasn't quite received the attention he feels he deserves, he cannot help but boast to friends. And the friends are troubled enough by his statements to go to LE.
In the end, maybe this boasting, this attention-seeking, this proving himself (akin to the initiation of a gang member), the blatant placement of the car on Herring, are all the same thing: the motive itself.
Key Questions
- Did this suspect also boast to someone beforehand that he would/could kill people? Anyone can confess or take credit after a murder—lots of people often do, wasting the time of LE and possibly harming the investigation in the process. But if this same suspect made statements before as well as after the murders, and if this suspect was living or staying near Herring, that's a lot of circumstantial evidence. If a credible witness who heard this person boast before the murders would come forward, that could be what solves this case.
- If the killer was someone living or staying near Herring, why does he kill the girls somewhere farther away—and then move the bodies closer to where he's living/staying?
- Why doesn't the killer seem to fear capture? And why does he feel comfortable boasting about it after?
killarney rose
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Nicely laid out, @DimeDetective
TedMac
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I've thought long and hard why the killer would have gone to the great risk of driving the car into town with the bodies in the trunk. These are just guesses, but one of them could be right. (1) The killer may not have been an overly strong person and simply couldn't physically move them by himself. I estimating each girl's weight at 120 lbs. Try to lift 120 lbs by yourself. You will find it to be a real challenge. (2) Something such as an approaching vehicle or something similar may have spooked him where he slammed the trunk shut and took off in the car. (3) The girls were bloody after being shot and maybe he didn't want to risk getting their blood on his clothes. (4) A lot of people simply don't want to touch dead bodies and that may have been the case with him.
Very interesting perspectives on the placement of the car for sure. I do want to clear up something when it comes to the car being dirty. I grew up going to the field parties in Headland, Ozark and Dothan areas. When you think of a field we are not tasking a nice grassy pasture. Most are in an old peanut field that has been tilled and planted. There was rain before that day according to wether reports from back then so whatever field those parties were in would have been muddy as heck. Also it’s not like there is a road into where everyone parks at, depending on how you enter the field they would have had to drive through quite a bit of acreage to get back to it. Also, in that area especially after a good rain some of the guys with trucks and even a few people in their cars would go muddin in the field at those same parties. Very popular and your vehicle would look like you gave it a mud bath after making a run through it. Also the mud on their pant legs confirms this also was propbably the case. Some have speculated that they got loose from the killer and ran through a creek or something, I don’t think so at all. It was confirmed that they DID attend the field party in Skipperville and that area especially is all cotton and peanut fields, very muddy after a rain. I think that is the only way the mud on the car and in them got there was from that party.
I still wholeheartedly believe that they decided to go somewhere else in Ozark instead of heading home. Like I said before it really was t that hard to find 231 from that area. I think they stopped at a house party at one of the many party houses in that area or to meet up with someone else who has never come forward with that information. Who knows. I know,last time I was home in Dothan I drove out to Ozark to look st a horse for sale and I drove by all those areas again. Still shakes me to the core what happened to them. So very sad for the families.
I still wholeheartedly believe that they decided to go somewhere else in Ozark instead of heading home. Like I said before it really was t that hard to find 231 from that area. I think they stopped at a house party at one of the many party houses in that area or to meet up with someone else who has never come forward with that information. Who knows. I know,last time I was home in Dothan I drove out to Ozark to look st a horse for sale and I drove by all those areas again. Still shakes me to the core what happened to them. So very sad for the families.
killarney rose
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Than-you Tinala. That was the exact point I was trying to make with my recent post about the girls shoes and pants legs, you brought at the condition of the fields so much better than I did.
Also that time of year there would be weeds with briars and sticks mixed in with the crops.
Also that time of year there would be weeds with briars and sticks mixed in with the crops.
I'm still hung up on the notion that the depositor of the DNA has come forward. If he has they would have run the test. If all that has indeed happened why keep that from the public? The possibility of the DNA not being related to the crime has always been there but someone coming forward and it being ID'd is a whole nother ball game. It opens other doors as far as motive which has been the problem this whole time.
Unless it's a situation where they know who did it but can't prove it so they're keeping the revelation close to the vest. I can maybe see that happening but otherwise can also see where releasing that info could be beneficial.
You did have the former chief continue to speak of the DNA as recently as 2014 but in almost the same breath say they still don't know what the motive is, which I thought was odd at the time.
If Michigan dude's friends think he might have did it it's likely they also have an idea of why. Has anyone heard why he might have did this?
Unless it's a situation where they know who did it but can't prove it so they're keeping the revelation close to the vest. I can maybe see that happening but otherwise can also see where releasing that info could be beneficial.
You did have the former chief continue to speak of the DNA as recently as 2014 but in almost the same breath say they still don't know what the motive is, which I thought was odd at the time.
If Michigan dude's friends think he might have did it it's likely they also have an idea of why. Has anyone heard why he might have did this?
Just found this posted on another crime discussion from a year ago. Seems the drivers license was not found on the dash it was placed there by an investigator when trying to identify the car owner before the bodies were discovered in the trunk. That was the one piece of evidence that led people to believe it may have been a police officer that did it. WTF the police wouldn’t have made sure to clear up,this discrepancy with the public as I am sure then this led to a lot of false tips that came in comcerning shady cops. Unbelievable how badly this case was handled from the get go.
“murders of J.B. Beasley and Tracie Hawlett in Ozark, AL. in 1999. It appears that for years it was reported and assumed that one of the girl's drivers license was resting on the dashboard of the car in which their bodies were found. Which implied a law enforcement perpetrator, or more likely in my mind, a predator impersonating law enforcement.
But just a few years ago, I believe one of the victims' sister said she was told by police the license was NOT found on the dash...it was just left there by one of the first inspectors, after they found it in her purse trying to identify the victim (or the car's owner, to be specific, as the bodies were not yet found).
That was always considered to be one of the fundamental key pieces of publicly known evidence, and now, possibly, it was wrong all along. And the police never felt necessary to correct public perception.
I get that you don't want to give the public all the evidence, but knowing a key piece of known evidence is 100% wrong, and not correcting it? Come on. In a cold case, one of the only things to break it is a public tip (AKA Tara Grinstead) so it's a bit frustrating to me that there would be so much derision to the public that you would let that misinformation stand.”
“murders of J.B. Beasley and Tracie Hawlett in Ozark, AL. in 1999. It appears that for years it was reported and assumed that one of the girl's drivers license was resting on the dashboard of the car in which their bodies were found. Which implied a law enforcement perpetrator, or more likely in my mind, a predator impersonating law enforcement.
But just a few years ago, I believe one of the victims' sister said she was told by police the license was NOT found on the dash...it was just left there by one of the first inspectors, after they found it in her purse trying to identify the victim (or the car's owner, to be specific, as the bodies were not yet found).
That was always considered to be one of the fundamental key pieces of publicly known evidence, and now, possibly, it was wrong all along. And the police never felt necessary to correct public perception.
I get that you don't want to give the public all the evidence, but knowing a key piece of known evidence is 100% wrong, and not correcting it? Come on. In a cold case, one of the only things to break it is a public tip (AKA Tara Grinstead) so it's a bit frustrating to me that there would be so much derision to the public that you would let that misinformation stand.”
somequestions
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My information is probably wrong due to misremembering the article. I think the article was titled Bittersweet 16 or something close to that. However I thought at least some of the girls participated in beauty or fashion contests(which I know is not the same as being a model).
Ok so I can’t help but keep going back to the testimony of Rena Crumb. What did she have to gain by telling a made up story? Nothing. She had everything to lose and after being assaulted has basically disappeared. No more information from her after that. There was never any official word on her at all it was all from the family. What does everyone think of this?
I found the mother of all cover ups by police and one cop breaks the Blue Wall
I found the mother of all cover ups by police and one cop breaks the Blue Wall
somequestions
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I did not know police had officially determined where the crime scene was located based on some evidence. I have read areas like Depot Lane or another area south of town near 123 were possible areas that the murders took place.
I completely agree with you that moving the bodies in the victims car is strange, especially considering they were shot and guns tend to make a lot of noise. I can only speculate as to why he moved the bodies.
My specialty is mapping so if the crime scene were indeed the Depot Lane area or whatever area off 123 that has been discussed it still would be a little strange to me that he drove J.B. Beasley's car to where he did on Herring Avenue on the south side of Herring Avenue facing north.
One thing I have looked up is where do most criminals tend to put cars if their victim is in the trunk. This will always be a general perspective, but it seems like they either place the car near where the victim lived or near where they live. Why is this important? If we assume that police canvassed the neighborhood around Herring Avenue where the car was found and the killer does not live nearby, I think we might be able to come to some general conclusions.
Knowing a town's main roads is not the same as knowing the residential streets at night. So for example if the crime was committed near Depot Lane and the killer drove the car to Herring Avenue to throw people off, we might speculate that this person is familiar enough with Ozark, AL to be able to walk the residential streets at night without getting lost. It certainly would look foolish if the individual walked down the wrong street only to have to walk back down the same street late at night with witnesses, possible dogs barking, and just generally being frustrated with not knowing where to go.
And then there is the fact that the bodies are hidden in the trunk. I think a criminal could drive a car and park it on a street with many houses and walk away. And if there is no connection between him and the vehicle, how would anyone find him?
We could speculate all day about the case. Another idea could be that since the car was left on Herring Avenue, maybe the person did not want to get too far away from AL 27 if they had to walk? Or maybe J.B. Beasley and Tracie Hawlett only knew the main roads well enough to navigate them and not the residential streets? Maybe this is how they got lost after leaving the gas station? It could be the same for the killer. Maybe this person just travels through Ozark, AL and does not actually live there?
These are all my guesses, and I like to think are somewhat educated guesses based on my experience.
Anyone heard of the murders of Melva Johnston? She was taken from Montgomery, her body was found in a field there but her car was found in the same area as the ozark girls murder. Sorry but that is not a coincidence for me. On the Facebook page for the girls a woman who is a relative confirms that the car was found in ozark in the same vicinity of the girls car.
Google Groups
Google Groups
Here is another link, the car was actually found ON Herring ave. Also! While there was no DNA match there were other people in the car with him.
Google Groups
Google Groups
DimeDetective
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For those who may be unaware, or for those who haven't yet listened, here is a link to the podcast, Fear Based Life. The episode from March 20, 2018, features Veronica Silver, producer-director of Shined Rabbit, the as-yet unreleased documentary on the Beasley-Hawlett murders.
Scroll down and look for the episode entitled, "Hometown Murder." The show will play on lots of different platforms, whichever you prefer, so it's really easy to listen. And I would highly recommend listening. The interview with Ms. Silver is illuminating. She speaks about her reasons for making the documentary, her research, and the experience of making the film.
We've been anticipating the film's release for a long time, and we're still not sure how much longer that release may take. Listening to this interview and discovering the origin of, and the voice behind, the documentary is helpful while we wait.
www.melmstephens.com/podcast
Scroll down and look for the episode entitled, "Hometown Murder." The show will play on lots of different platforms, whichever you prefer, so it's really easy to listen. And I would highly recommend listening. The interview with Ms. Silver is illuminating. She speaks about her reasons for making the documentary, her research, and the experience of making the film.
We've been anticipating the film's release for a long time, and we're still not sure how much longer that release may take. Listening to this interview and discovering the origin of, and the voice behind, the documentary is helpful while we wait.
www.melmstephens.com/podcast
or the person did not know bodies were in there
DimeDetective
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From The Southeast Sun, "Teen murders spark year-long investigation," Aug. 3, 2000:
Investigators have reviewed videotapes from several convenience stores in Ozark...
Here's another detail I discovered while re-reading the same story that reported the discovery of a piece of tire tread at the barn—the possible primary crime scene—south of town.
The fact that the above quoted sentence goes on to refer to the white pickup, which investigators were then still looking for, may have previously pulled our attention away from this first statement.
Hoping this will shed some light on recent discussions about whether the girls stopped at another gas station or convenience store in the area after the Big/Little Store. Seems likely investigators would have spotted them on surveillance video.
Investigators have reviewed videotapes from several convenience stores in Ozark...
Here's another detail I discovered while re-reading the same story that reported the discovery of a piece of tire tread at the barn—the possible primary crime scene—south of town.
The fact that the above quoted sentence goes on to refer to the white pickup, which investigators were then still looking for, may have previously pulled our attention away from this first statement.
Hoping this will shed some light on recent discussions about whether the girls stopped at another gas station or convenience store in the area after the Big/Little Store. Seems likely investigators would have spotted them on surveillance video.
DimeDetective
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Please don't sell yourself short, KR. Your insights have always been stellar and any/all information from locals is invaluable. Keep up the good work!
DimeDetective
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These posts do a good job of addressing the big problem of misinformation in this case. The lack of effort over the years to officially correct and clear away conjecture in favor of solid information has left this case a muddle. The license on the dash is a perfect example.
And I agree with LR1: the role of the DNA in this case is especially confusing. It's been used to clear many suspects, yet it remains oddly in the background. If this were clearly a DNA case, wouldn't we all be eagerly awaiting an announcement that genealogical testing is being done?
cherrymeg
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I wondered if this car was stolen with bodies inside. It sounds like a bad movie plot but you never know. Were there many car thefts in that area around that time?
Does the podcast talk about the DNA? I seem to remember something not being in the discussion that I thought should have been. I guess that would be the latest accessible documented update although information gathered would have been from family and maybe friends. I don't think LE was even interviewed for this film.
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