Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #2

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

It's a movie set. An armorer is supposed to load and unload the gun, not an actor.

A movie set is no exception from real life and proper gun safety. Proper gun safety is the person who will be holding the gun verifies whether the gun is loaded or not with a visual inspection. That visual inspection may be them saying to the person handing them a gun "open it up and show me that it’s not loaded" when being told the gun is cold.

 

[PrairieWind]

It's a movie set. An armorer is supposed to load and unload the gun, not an actor. Actors are not in charge of preparing their props. That's why a movie set has a prop director, and armorer, and so on.

But as we have just seen, cost cutting and time requirements can lead to prop directors and armorers not doing their job. Requiring actors to actually be trained with the weapon just adds one more layer of safety.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

If you run around in a real world, pointing gun at people, you are likely going to be arrested. In the movies, that's what actors do if they are in a Western. And they are not getting arrested for it.

In westerns most of those guns are not even real, proper safety protocols have been followed and no one is killed.

 

[JaneEyre]

That's why they sent all of the ammo to the FBI. They will figure out if it was more than one type of live ammo and where it was likely purchased. There could even be finger prints on some of the casings or boxes.

I believe it was said that live ammo was stored in boxes right next to blanks, which will be another liability issue (and that's the fault of the armourer but that person was hired by someone...who made also find him/herself in the chain of liability).

BBM - that's why I think she's lying. The alternative is that she's stupid. No. As an armourer she had to have seen live ammo stored next to blanks, IMO.

 

[wary]

Another thing I was thinking about, what if the actor has vision problems? One example would be Oscar winner Dame Judi Dench. Do you simply not hire such an actor based on inability to visually check a prop gun?

For starters, maybe you find some way to rehearse her scene that doesn’t have her practicing a cross-draw, pointing the gun at someone, and pulling the trigger?

MOO

 

[JaneEyre]

You would be surprised what some of the parents of child actors agree to. And the things they sign off on. It is a completely different mindset.

I agree. I just couldn't figure out a nice way to say it.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I agree. There's no way every actor can check every weapon they're handed on set.

wanted to add that I do agree with today’s technology that can create any effect, there is never any reason to have a real gun and live ammo on a movie set.

 

[fred&edna]

For starters, maybe you find some way to rehearse her scene that doesn’t have her practicing a cross-draw, pointing the gun at someone, and pulling the trigger?

MOO

How would you do that? Rewrite the script or what?

 

[jjenny]

In westerns most of those guns are not even real, proper safety protocols have been followed and no one is killed.

Rust was a Western.

 

[jjenny]

This Dan Abrams video has an expert film armorer named Clay Van Sickle demonstrate examples of blank, dummy, and live ammunition.

I noted that the dummy round used in films does not have a hole in the side. It has the primer punched to deactivate it and BB's inside that can be heard if shaken. It visually looks like a live round except for the punched primer which can be seen from rear of the guns cylinder when the loading gate is opened and the cylinder spun.

I think AD Halls meant to say "rear" instead of "side" when talking to LE. That would make much more sense. JMO.

Timestamp 10:56.

There are different ways to mark dummy rounds. Here is an example of dummy round with hole on the side. The hole is indeed on the side.
50 Cal. DUMMY AMMO drilled holes (armynavyoutdoors.com)

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Rust was a Western.

I said "most”

 

[jjenny]

A movie set is no exception from real life and proper gun safety. Proper gun safety is the person who will be holding the gun verifies whether the gun is loaded or not with a visual inspection. That visual inspection may be them saying to the person handing them a gun "open it up and show me that it’s not loaded" when being told the gun is cold.

The gun was loaded with dummy rounds. Opening it up wouldn't prove the gun is cold. It would have to be unloaded and each round inspected.

 

[Luna20]

BBM - that's why I think she's lying. The alternative is that she's stupid. No. As an armourer she had to have seen live ammo stored next to blanks, IMO.

I don’t understand why she left any of it on a tray during a lunch break. I’m curious if she was under the influence?

 

[jjenny]

But as we have just seen, cost cutting and time requirements can lead to prop directors and armorers not doing their job. Requiring actors to actually be trained with the weapon just adds one more layer of safety.

It wouldn't be wise to require actors to load and unload the guns. The gun has to be inspected prior to being given to the actor. Including looked in the barrel to make sure the barrel is empty. Dummy rounds look like the real rounds. Without unloading the gun and inspecting each round (for hole in its side) it would not be possible to verify the gun is loaded with dummy rounds as opposed to live rounds.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

It wouldn't take less than five seconds. Gun was loaded with dummy rounds. To check, one would have to unload the gun and inspect each round. There is no way an actor is expected to do that. An armorer is supposed to load and unload the gun. Not an actor.

I haven’t read anywhere that it’s a fact that an actor shouldn’t check the gun. Do you have a link? People are debating it, but I haven’t seen anything definitive that rules Baldwin in or out of being partly responsible.

The DA hasn’t ruled out Baldwin being charged:
“Regardless of the finances of Rust, District Attorney Mary Carmack-Altwies told NBC News on Wednesday night that she hasn’t ruled out Baldwin as a person of interest in her probe.

“He’s very important. He’s the one that pulled the trigger. He’s the one that was holding the gun. And so he’s very important. Does that mean that charges will be filed? Not necessarily. It also doesn’t mean that they won’t be filed..”
‘Rust’ Shooting Death: Executive Producers Disavow Responsibility Over Accident – Deadline

 

[jjenny]

Baldwin would have to unload the gun in order to check it. Armorer is the one who loads and unloads the gun.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

It wouldn't be wise to require actors to load and unload the guns.

Basic gun safety 101 is not loading and unloading the gun yourself but being able to verify if it is loaded, if a round is still in the chamber, being able to recognize if it’s loaded or unloaded when you ask the armorer to open it up and verify the status of the gun, to know to always treat the gun as loaded and never put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to purposefully pull that trigger.

 

[PrairieWind]

It's a movie set. An armorer is supposed to load and unload the gun, not an actor. Actors are not in charge of preparing their props. That's why a movie set has a prop director, and armorer, and so on.

But as we have just seen, cost cutting and time requirements can lead to prop directors and armorers not doing their job. Requiring actors to actually be trained with the weapon just adds one more layer of safety.

The gun was loaded with dummy rounds. Opening it up wouldn't prove the gun is cold. It would have to be unloaded and each round inspected.

With a revolver, just opening the loading gate and rotating the cylinder would show it has dummy rounds or show that a live round was loaded. It would take 5-10 seconds.

 

[Nanceedroo]

I keep meaning to ask: Why did HG remove the casing from the gun after the shooting? It seems like everything, including guns and ammo, should have been left untouched for LE to inspect. Is there a legitimate reason for handling the gun? Could there have been additional bullets in the gun?

The Armorer (Hannah Gutierrez) was given the prop gun after it was fired by Actor Alec Baldwin, she then took the spent casing out of the prop-gun. When deputies arrived on scene, the prop-gun was handed to arriving deputies by Armorer (Hannah Gutierrez).

All good questions and very disturbing.

 

[wary]

How would you do that? Rewrite the script or what?

MOO

She can practice the draw with a fake gun. When she graduates to a real gun, the blocking can make sure that she’s not pointing the gun at anyone. When they film, why not use a remote-controlled camera?

And yes, in some cases, rewriting the script might be in order, specially in the case you describe, where someone is not physically capable of gun safety. If you have to show the finger pulling the trigger, why not make it a close-up?

As an afterthought, if the script called for someone to drive a car, and you wanted to hire someone who wasn’t physically capable of safely driving a car, I believe you would need to make some sort of compromise—either rewriting the script or using a stunt driver, (which might change the camera angles you had planned.)

MOO